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 Ravages in Wych cults

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Barking Agatha
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 23:40

Is there anything to stop me taking a Ravager in a wych cult now?
I can’t find any rules to stop me or to remove my obsession. Just that they don’t get any obsession themselves.
So I could take 3wych patrols and still have my 3 Ravagers in my heavy slots

Of course this can be extrapolated out to taking wracks as mandatory troops for Kabals, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 00:07

Nothing to stop you taking Ravagers in a Wych Cult detachment. As you say, they simply do not gain an obsession.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 11:06

What about this sentence found on page 88?
Quote :
If your army is Battle-forged, you can only include unlts from one
<KABAL>, one <WYCH CULT> and one <HAEMONCULUS COVEN> in the
sarme Detachment.

Doesn't it mean that you can't unclude units with different subfaction keywords in tha same detachment?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 11:38

It says AND, not OR. So you're still okay to add other non-Cult units as long as they are only from 1 Kabal and/or 1 Coven.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 13:05

Ok, that's fair. But what about gaining obsessions?
Page 53 says that units in Kabal, Cult or Coven detachments gain access to the Obsessions. And then specifies how this happens.
What is for example a Cult Detachment?
It is indicated in the Cult of Strife supplement that the CoS Detachment is the one that only includes units with CoS keyword.
So if you take a Ravager in the same Detachment as your Wyches, it will be neither Wych cult Detachment nor Kabal Detachment so no one gains the obsession.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 13:17

Lol. @SERAFF, you really want to try and break the codex XD

Why not just take it in the usual Black Heart/Obsidian Rose patrol? Those re-rolls more than make up for the "tax" of Drazhar + warriors.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 13:58

@fisheyes wrote:
Lol. @SERAFF, you really want to try and break the codex XD

Why not just take it in the usual Black Heart/Obsidian Rose patrol? Those re-rolls more than make up for the "tax" of Drazhar + warriors.

No no at this point I am trying to advocate common sense.
Count says that he sees nothing preventing taking ravagers in a Cult detachment. But I see.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 14:12

@SERAFF wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:
Lol. @SERAFF, you really want to try and break the codex XD

Why not just take it in the usual Black Heart/Obsidian Rose patrol? Those re-rolls more than make up for the "tax" of Drazhar + warriors.

No no at this point I am trying to advocate common sense.
Count says that he sees nothing preventing taking ravagers in a Cult detachment. But I see.

Pg49 of the codex should help clear this up.

If your detachment contains only Drukhari units, its a Drukhari Detachment.

Each Drukhari Detachment must be designated as Kabal, Cult, Coven or Realspace Raid.

The Raiding Forces rule says that Kabal units in a Kabal detachment gain a Drukhari obsession, Cult units in Cult detachment etc.

There's nothing preventing you from taking, for example, Ravagers in a Cult detachment. It just means the Ravagers don't get an obsession, because the obsession is granted to Cult units in Cult detachments and the Ravager is not a Cult unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 14:19

IDK guys. If someone tried this while playing in my garage, they would be stuck drinking warm beer for the rest of the night Razz

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 14:30

@fisheyes wrote:
IDK guys. If someone tried this while playing in my garage, they would be stuck drinking warm beer for the rest of the night Razz

I think you're stuck in 8e mode. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 16:27

I would even go so far as to say this way it’s nice amd fluffy, your cult can hire a ravager from the black heart Kahala, but they don’t get the black heart bonuses because they aren’t being led by a black heart archon and being directed in the right way.

I haven’t come up with a great use for this yet, but I find it an interesting ability we now have.
Talos or chronos in a wych cult anyone?
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 18:48

This is revelatory.
Asking for clarification:
So, we can now have one big detachment. Say a Battalion.
I have to specify what it is: Cult, Kabal, Coven.
But what I populate the Battalion with can be any model from the Codex.
However, the only models that can gain/use the Obsession are those aligned with the sub-type keyword?

So, for sake of argument, I could say the Battalion is a Coven, Prophets of Flesh, but put only kabal units in it (though they'd get no Obsession benefit)?
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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 19:48

Correct. The only restriction that I can see is that you can only have models from one of each sub-faction in a detachment. So you could not, for example, have Poison Tongue Kabalites in Black Heart Raiders if they are from the same detachment.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 08 2021, 09:14

@Count Adhemar wrote:


The Raiding Forces rule says that Kabal units in a Kabal detachment gain a Drukhari obsession, Cult units in Cult detachment etc.

There's nothing preventing you from taking, for example, Ravagers in a Cult detachment. It just means the Ravagers don't get an obsession, because the obsession is granted to Cult units in Cult detachments and the Ravager is not a Cult unit.

You noted correctly, that units in Kabal detachment gain a Drukhari obsession and so on.
But if you add some Wych Cult units into Kabal detachment, this detachment will no longer be a Kabal detachment. So no obsession for anyone.
It will be just a Drukhari detachment, neither Kabal nor Cult.
If you want your detachment to be for example Kabal, all units must have Kabal keyword. That's the only way to get a Drukhari obsession.
That's all is written in our codex, is't not just my point of view.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 08 2021, 09:28

@SERAFF wrote:
You noted correctly, that units in Kabal detachment gain a Drukhari obsession and so on.
But if you add some Wych Cult units into Kabal detachment, this detachment will no longer be a Kabal detachment. So no obsession for anyone.
It will be just a Drukhari detachment, neither Kabal nor Cult.
If you want your detachment to be for example Kabal, all units must have Kabal keyword. That's the only way to get a Drukhari obsession.
That's all is written in our codex, is't not just my point of view.

You're going to have to find an actual rule to quote for the bolded sections, otherwise it is just opinion.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 08 2021, 09:49

@SERAFF wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:


The Raiding Forces rule says that Kabal units in a Kabal detachment gain a Drukhari obsession, Cult units in Cult detachment etc.

There's nothing preventing you from taking, for example, Ravagers in a Cult detachment. It just means the Ravagers don't get an obsession, because the obsession is granted to Cult units in Cult detachments and the Ravager is not a Cult unit.

You noted correctly, that units in Kabal detachment gain a Drukhari obsession and so on.
But if you add some Wych Cult units into Kabal detachment, this detachment will no longer be a Kabal detachment. So no obsession for anyone.
It will be just a Drukhari detachment, neither Kabal nor Cult.
If you want your detachment to be for example Kabal, all units must have Kabal keyword. That's the only way to get a Drukhari obsession.
That's all is written in our codex, is't not just my point of view.

The whole 'detachments must be Kabal/Cult/Coven only' rule was 8th edition.

I know it's not the best way to prove it, but since Battlescribe has updated with our new codex, I tried adding a number of non-Cult units to a Cult list. It had no issue with the additions at all, so Count Adhemar's statements are indeed correct - you can take them, but they just don't benefit from Cult obsessions.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 08 2021, 09:55

@Glass Battleaxe wrote:
The whole 'detachments must be Kabal/Cult/Coven only' rule was 8th edition.

And only 8th edition. All other versions of our codex have allowed us to mix and match freely. The current codex does have some limitations, but nowhere near the severe restrictions of the 8e codex.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 08 2021, 10:59

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@SERAFF wrote:
You noted correctly, that units in Kabal detachment gain a Drukhari obsession and so on.
But if you add some Wych Cult units into Kabal detachment, this detachment will no longer be a Kabal detachment. So no obsession for anyone.
It will be just a Drukhari detachment, neither Kabal nor Cult.
If you want your detachment to be for example Kabal, all units must have Kabal keyword. That's the only way to get a Drukhari obsession.
That's all is written in our codex, is't not just my point of view.

You're going to have to find an actual rule to quote for the bolded sections, otherwise it is just opinion.

Cult of Strife supplement 3rd paragraph:

Quote :
Some rules in this section refer to a Cult of Strife Detachment. This is one that only includes units with Cult of Strife keyword.

Perfect example. If you add some Ravagers, it will no longer be a Cult of Strife Detachment and no one gets an obsession. That's what I'm talking about.
The same logic applies everywhere. If you add some Drukhari units to a Harlequin detachment, it will no longer be a Harlequin detachment (technically you can do it in the open war or whatnot).
This is what the keywords about.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 08 2021, 11:09

That applies specifically to Cult of Strife detachments. There is literally nothing in the codex that says or even implies that it applies to any other detachment.

Pg 49 – DETACHMENT ABILITIES
A DRUKHARI Detachment is one that only includes models with the DRUKHARI keyword (excluding models with the UNALIGNED keyword)

If your army is Battle-forged, each DRUKHARI Detachment must be designated as a Kabal Detachment, Wych Cult Detachment, Haemonculus Coven Detachment or Realspace Raid Detachment.

Pg 49 – RAIDING FORCES
All <KABAL> units in a Kabal Detachment gain a Drukhari Obsession (see page 53)

Pg 53 – DRUKHARI KABALS, CULTS AND COVENS
Units in a DRUKHARI Kabal, Wych Cult, Haemonculus Coven or Realspace Raid Detachment gain access to the following rules:
KABAL, WYCH CULT AND HAEMONCULUS COVEN OBSESSIONS
All <KABAL>, <WYCH CULT> and <HAEMONCULUS COVEN> units…with this ability gain a Drukhari Obsession. The Obsession gained depends upon which Kabal, Wych Cult or Haemonculus Coven they are from…

Pg 88 – THE <KABAL>, <WYCH CULT> AND <HAEMONCULUS COVEN> KEYWORDS
When you include a <KABAL>, <WYCH CULT> or <HAEMONCULUS COVEN> unit in your army, you must nominate which Kabal, Wych Cult or Haemonculus Coven it is from…
If your army is Battle-forged, you can only include units from one <KABAL>, one <WYCH CULT> and one <HAEMONCULUS COVEN> in the same Detachment.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 08 2021, 11:30

There's also the Realspace Raid section on page 49, which notably does not give any explicit permission to include mixed units in a detachment. It simply says that if you do, and if you meet the prereqs of the detachment, they all get the relevant obsession. This would seem to confirm that you can normally mix units just at the cost of obsessions.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 08 2021, 12:13

I don't understand how it can be read differently than how Count Adhemar describes and if that is not intended they made an exceptionally poor job (even for GW) in explaining it.

I didn't realize the Cult of Strife detachment didn't allow Blades For Hire, that's mildly annoying.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 08 2021, 12:22

You can, here is the complete paragraph for what defines a Cult of Strife detachment.

Ravages in Wych cults Cult_o10
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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 08 2021, 12:37

Ah thanks, haven't gotten my hands on that book yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 08 2021, 13:14

@Count Adhemar wrote:


If your army is Battle-forged, each DRUKHARI Detachment must be designated as a Kabal Detachment, Wych Cult Detachment, Haemonculus Coven Detachment or Realspace Raid Detachment.


Here is the root of all evil. The question is how we designate a detachment to be Kabal, Coven or Cult one.
I followed the example given in the supplement – take only units with the same keyword and blades for hire, and this detachment will get the correspondent type.

And Count suggests that you simply call a Detachment for example Kabal and go on.
Actually I’m glad to be wrong here as it gives me more possibilities, thanks for the clarification guys.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravages in Wych cults   Ravages in Wych cults I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 08 2021, 20:02

Glad we are all in agreement. I had someone else confused by this, and this is how I explained it to him.

1. There are only 4 different "Drukhari detachment" types in the codex. Kabal, Cult, Coven, Realspace Raid.

2. Example: There is no such thing as "Black Heart Detachment". But there is a "Drukhari Kabal Detachment" with the Black Heart Obsession.

3. A "Cult of Strife Detachment" is a Drukhari Detachment that has it's own creation and composition rules.

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