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 HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!

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HERO
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PostSubject: HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!   HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review! I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 04:33

It's long, almost 3 hours. Watch at 1.5x because I go through all the rules in the book:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/974891459

TLDR: I think the book is great, there are a LOT of competitive options, and I think in the next couple of months, we'll see how my predictions line up. QUOTE ME ON THIS FOLKS!

My predictions:
S-tier: Drazhar, Incubi
Cults > Kabal > Coven

Top Kabals - Black Heart > Poisoned Tongue > else
Top Cults - Strife > Cursed Blade > else
Top Coven - Dark Technos > Dark Creed > else

Everything is competitive, minus:
Beastmaster
Court of Archon
Any beasts
Lelith - because better succy loadout
Urien - because pof
Talos/Cronos - decent in heavy coven, but Coven not as competitive as other 2
Flyers, except for VR, which can do bomb shennigans

I am planning to make a video about what Tier I think we'll be in. This means I'll be comparing the latest Goonhammer article, and making my predictions vs. the Tier1/2 armies.
https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-competitive-tier-list-april-2021/

Stay tuned..

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Last edited by HERO on Mon Apr 05 2021, 16:16; edited 1 time in total

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!   HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review! I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 16:11

Alright, I look forward to quoting you on this later Wink

What is your opinion on hellions/reavers? Are they Traps?

Minor typo, you called Cults "Coven" in the post above
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!   HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review! I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 16:17

@fisheyes wrote:
Alright, I look forward to quoting you on this later Wink

What is your opinion on hellions/reavers? Are they Traps?

Minor typo, you called Cults "Coven" in the post above

I don't think they're traps per se, I think they have Evisterating Flyby as a strat that's going to make them viable. I think they're competitive, but exactly how many to take and for what kind of list is still a mystery to me.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!   HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review! I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 16:45

Im by no means a "good" player, but both units have evaporated in my games so far. 99% its just me getting a feel for the army, but I am wondering in the back of my mind...
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!   HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review! I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 17:02

I think both are great, but not if your plan is MSU. I think they eat into that to hard. I keep trying to fit 15 Hellions into a list but I always seem to cut back to 10 do to points if I try to fit both Reavers and Hellions in a list.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!   HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review! I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 17:54

@Dalamar wrote:
I think both are great, but not if your plan is MSU.  I think they eat into that to hard.  I keep trying to fit 15 Hellions into a list but I always seem to cut back to 10 do to points if I try to fit both Reavers and Hellions in a list.

10 Hellions can do some work so don't feel bad about that.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!   HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review! I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 18:14

Super quick, I want to make people aware that Brady from AlmostProGaming is advocating for RSR and Venoms, and Nick Navanti's Art of War list for his RTT coming up as Court of Archon.

This just shows us that other solid players are looking and interrupting what they think is good, and that's always a good sign when opinions are varied.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!   HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review! I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 20:40

I’ve been having a hard time fitting Hellions and Reavers into my lists.  I play against DG a lot so the 2dmg on the Hellions weapons isn’t that useful a lot of times.  And I am still not sure what role they would fill in my lists.  I’m thinking maybe 5-6 man harassment units.  Maybe a 9 man Reaver unit with three HL and Grav Talons.  

The issue I keep running into is that they have a huge footprint and are really hard to hide.  Because of Eviscerating Fly By they’re probably going to be a priority target for your opponent and if you can’t hide them or if you’re facing good indirect shooting, they’re going to die early.  And in an army where most things are cheap enough to trade and not have it hurt to too much, big units of Reavers and Hellions seem too expensive to lose early game.  

Because they’re roughly twice as expensive as Wyches, I feel like losing them on turn one might significantly blunt my turn 2/3 punch if I invest a lot of points into them.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!   HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review! I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 21:27

Reavers with HLances & GTalons could be a good unit to kill 1-2 of the DeathGuards precious Support Characters ...

Bye,
Stoni
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!   HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review! I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 03:33

@HERO wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:
Alright, I look forward to quoting you on this later Wink

What is your opinion on hellions/reavers? Are they Traps?

Minor typo, you called Cults "Coven" in the post above

I don't think they're traps per se, I think they have Evisterating Flyby as a strat that's going to make them viable. I think they're competitive, but exactly how many to take and for what kind of list is still a mystery to me.

I think eviscerating flyby might be the trap, at least with hellions. It creates the temptation to take a large squad of 15-20 which is just unwieldy. Not only are they hard to hide, but you're tempted to hide them until an unsuspecting character wanders into their threat range.

I wasn't even sold on 10 of them in the one game I used them in. They don't fit into the concept of trading resources. 170 points that can only leverage their power by exposing their position. They'll hit something pretty hard (though not as hard as an 80 point squad of Incubi), then they'll die.

I'm going to try 2 squads of 5 as flexible harassment units next time. They can more easily hide, zone out deep strikers, pick on isolated squads, and secure Engage on all Fronts/Deploy Scramblers.

With Reavers, I prefer squads of 6 for many of the reasons listed above. Though I think 9 is good for Eviscerating Flyby. With a minimum of 26" advance, they can pull it off more reliably than hellions. 6 costs few enough points (150 after upgrades) that I'm okay using just the heatlances for a turn, until they've got a chance to really show off. But they're just more flexible than Hellions. They're faster, they have better shooting, they can do wounds in the charge phase, and they can pull off turn 1 charges, just to tie things up (or kill them, if the target is right and dice are with you).

And as @stoni42 mentions, they are actually good character assassins w/o Flyby. Just play patiently, using those longish range HLs and wait for an opening.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!   HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review! I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 11:37

Honestly I tried 20 of them, and they are a deathstar hands down. EFB is a trap only if you commit to hide them every turn until you get a good character in range. But it is bad.
They are stunning by themselves.
I played 20 of them, 12 Reavers, 2x Incubi on Raider and Venom, 10 BBrides on Raider, Drazhar, Succubus and other few stuff. If you want to kill them you have to spent more efforts that you'll think, and you can afford every threat I throw on you.
it's not really djfficult to hide them on proper 9th tables. They're dope, and opened to a lot of stratagems.
If you need, they can pass enemy turn with T6 and 4++. And keep in mind the pression you give to your opponent. They're not footslogging Blightlords, they're guys that charge by 24" (usually) every turn, that retreat and charge in the same turn.
+1" on charges, always strike first.
They can gain 4++ easy.
They can soak OW.
They can add vp-1 or +tougness.
They can reroll to wound.
And if you lose them, they're just 340 points. If that happens, you're already losing or you're winning with the other 1640 points.

They're dope guys, for real. Just don't waste them on the board, if you learn a bit how to move them, they will make games for you.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!   HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review! I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 16:31

The role of D2 weapon carrier just feels better done by Incubi IMO. Ill be trying out a list without the Hellions this weekend, and see if I notice any difference. Note that I dont have a large marine playerbase in my gaming group, so a lot of that D2 is wasted in my games so far.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!   HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review! I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 12 2021, 19:55

@fisheyes wrote:
The role of D2 weapon carrier just feels better done by Incubi IMO. Ill be trying out a list without the Hellions this weekend, and see if I notice any difference. Note that I dont have a large marine playerbase in my gaming group, so a lot of that D2 is wasted in my games so far.

Hellions actually do alright vs Incubi damage output. They have the mobility and shooting attacks Incubi lack, and depending on your Cult bonus, can be a real threat to anything short of a 2+ save. Incubi are much easier to field, 'cause Elites, and don't need to be in the same Detachment as your Archon.

The problem with Hellions is that they are Fast Attack. They are great units. But, Reavers edge them out ever so much by being able to perform more tasks. Hellions have a few advantages, like being able to claim cover, and D2 melee weapons. Is is enough to justify taking Hellions over Reavers? Likely, no. But, you could run Reavers outside of their Wych Cult Detachment in order to get around FA limits. I think they would still be able to function well without an Obsession.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!   HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review! I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 12 2021, 20:38

Got to play a whole 2 games over the weekend, against Sisters and Chaos Soup.

As stated, I dropped the Hellions and brought in 20 Wracks. Was VERY happy with the result.

I dont think we need both Reavers and Hellions in a list, if you got the Incubi spread around. TBF, neither force had W2 profiles, so maybe its still early to make a solid statement. But I dont think Hellions will make it into my list again.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!   HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review! I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 12 2021, 21:12

@fisheyes wrote:
Got to play a whole 2 games over the weekend, against Sisters and Chaos Soup.

As stated, I dropped the Hellions and brought in 20 Wracks. Was VERY happy with the result.

I dont think we need both Reavers and Hellions in a list, if you got the Incubi spread around. TBF, neither force had W2 profiles, so maybe its still early to make a solid statement. But I dont think Hellions will make it into my list again.

Agreed there, you should prob pick one or the other. I personally would choose Reavers every time, MSU or a single larger unit.

1. random drugs benefit them more than any other unit
2. blazing fast, helps secondaries easily
3. larger units is a serious flyby threat due to speed
4. heat lances need a mention just because

Minor point: they're not 10 points, don't even!

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!   HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review! I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 12 2021, 23:12

I'm playing both 20 Hellions and 12 Reavers full settings and I think together they work amazing. The thing is, both of them are a bait for blast, both of them works pretty well alone, both of them are a threat. Both of them are a bait. Basically if the opponent is going to focus on one of them, the other one will do spectacle.
And there's this jedi mindtrick about EFB that you have to guess which one will go for it. Hellions are raw power, they're a powerhouse and pretty tanky thanks to strife. They can blos, then charge, kill something and pop up the 4++ for strife. It makes theme surprisingly tanky for our army but you can't ignore them. With all the strife's stratagems they're nuts.
But if you go for them, 12 Reavers are going to mess with your deployment. I need precisely 12 because they are THE perfect EFB platform for me. I need those potential 6 MWs at 22"-24" (because you need room for yourself) for sniping potential, which is game changer. And if you begin to lose models, you just need 4 of them for the job (4Lances+4GravTalons).
But if you try to stop them, you can't argue with Hellions.
And I still have: Drazhar, Succubus, Master Haemi DC, 2x Incubi, 10 Bbrides, 2 Ravagers.
I never played the rivalry stratagem between them, I don't really need it. But I like how they work together, in maximum size they get a new special value which is weird but works more than well.


Of course you don't "need" them both. Nor one of them. Nor 20 or 12. But I just think that there's nothing you """need""" in this Codex.
Besides transports I guess.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review!   HERO's 9th Ed. Book Review! I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 13 2021, 12:32

You don't find you have too much Damage 2 and not enough hoard clearing/ Damage 3+? That's what I found with investing 400+ points in the Hellions/Reavers, just too much overlap.

It may be early days, but Wracks really help my list by bringing that massed poison CC. Most things that fear the Hellions also fear the Incubi, Succubi ( x2) and Drazhar. And I feel like those units are more efficient at what they do
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