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 How to use Hellions

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SCP Yeeman
sweetbacon
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Mononcule
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Mononcule
Kabalite Warrior
Mononcule

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PostSubject: How to use Hellions   How to use Hellions I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 04 2021, 14:23

Hi everyone,

I own 15 hellions from Gang of Commorragh and Blood of the Phoenix. Never used them (they are still in their sprue) even if I field Cult units more often than Kabals.

With the new Codex I'm looking for a few advices on how to use them. Even with the T & W buff they look a prime target for the opponent considering their large footprint and offensive potential.

How do you deploy them?

Thanks!
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Cerve
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Hellions   How to use Hellions I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 04 2021, 14:52

In 9th ed you field a lot of Obscuring on the board, like 7-8 of them.It's pretty simple to hide them on the board.
I played 20 of them with T5, from Strife. Keep them covered until you're ready to strike with all of your army, then go off, 14"+D6 and charge with everything. Kills omething, 1CP stratagem fron Rust and give them 4++ until your next turn.

Then good luck to kill 40 wounts T5 4++. Next turn just repeat.

(Remember to touch an infantry Character and kill it with Eviscerating FlyBy.)



Of course Drukhari are all about launching multiple threats to the opponent. I field 20 with 12 Reavers, 2 squads of Incubi, Bbrides, Succubus, Drazhar, and some transports. Overwhelm your opponent with multiple threats! Even 20 Hellions alone will die easy.
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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Hellions   How to use Hellions I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 04 2021, 18:35

Thanks! I don't have access to Rust yet, I'll have a look.

Outside of Strife, I was thinking Cursed blade for S5 with +1T drug.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Hellions   How to use Hellions I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 15:59

Only played 2 games with the new codex, so take this with a grain of salt.

I am seeing the role of the Hellions as a late game bully unit. Both my games I sent them in Turn 2 to counter charge and pull the enemy off a mid-field objective, then the hellions got cut down on his counter-counter charge. Starting to think that CC units in Raiders would do a better job of this Turn 2 (since the unit dies anyway).

Next game I will keep them back for Turn 3 charges, along with the Reavers (who may charge Turn 3 or possibly Turn 4 if I can restrain them that long Razz ).

Up until that point, they do a great job of screening the back field. Nobody wants to Deep Strike a unit near these guys, and they can take up a lot of board space (assuming you have Obsuring Terrain or are out of range of the enemys guns).

I went with +2" Movement Game 1 to try to make Evisorating Flyby easier (didnt help). Game 2 I rolled 2 random drugs. My gut tells me that rolling 2 is the way to go (worst case scenario you get +1WS and +1BS, which only happens 12% of the time)

FYI I ran them as Cursed Blade Game 1, and Cult of Strife Game 2. Cult of Strife strat to get a 4++ on a unit would have been great if the opponent didnt psykic it away.
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Vailex
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Hellions   How to use Hellions I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 16:31

So I've tried a unit of 10 and I am still trying to figure out the best way to use them as well. In one game they just took too much damage turn 1 and I ended up using them for scramblers. In another game they flew in and did some damage but died a horrible death the following turn.
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Vailex
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Hellions   How to use Hellions I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 17:51

Ya I feel like rolling the drugs on these guys is the way to go. If you don't roll, take the +1 toughness because these guys are hard to hide with such a big footprint and being so tall. Reaver jetbikes are easier to hide.

But they really are good in the game, just difficult to master. They can put a lot of hurt out for their points.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Hellions   How to use Hellions I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 20:54

@fisheyes wrote:

FYI I ran them as Cursed Blade Game 1, and Cult of Strife Game 2. Cult of Strife strat to get a 4++ on a unit would have been great if the opponent didnt psykic it away.

The problem is Cursed Blade is that it commits you to S5, which doesn't help against majority T3 armies. You would have to use your Combat Drug on Grave Lotus and go to S6. Not a bad idea, depending on what else is on the field and the type of PfP management you have. The underrated part of Cursed Blade is the price your opponent pays for charging your units. It may not be a large number of Mortal Wounds. It beats not inflicting any damage.

If you want to mitigate Mortal Wound damage, Berserk Fugue is your thing. It stacks up reasonably well against +1A Cursed Blade until Flensing Fury is factored in.


I'm skeptical about trying to make Hellions live longer. I tend to lean into offensive output with them, as they are the one Cult unit that has D2 weapons in abundance. These can be SM bullies, but i also have found them useful as Monster and Vehicle killers.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Hellions   How to use Hellions I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 01:53

@False Son wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:

FYI I ran them as Cursed Blade Game 1, and Cult of Strife Game 2. Cult of Strife strat to get a 4++ on a unit would have been great if the opponent didnt psykic it away.

The problem is Cursed Blade is that it commits you to S5, which doesn't help against majority T3 armies.  You would have to use your Combat Drug on Grave Lotus and go to S6.  Not a bad idea, depending on what else is on the field and the type of PfP management you have.  The underrated part of Cursed Blade is the price your opponent pays for charging your units.  It may not be a large number of Mortal Wounds.  It beats not inflicting any damage.

If you want to mitigate Mortal Wound damage, Berserk Fugue is your thing.  It stacks up reasonably well against +1A Cursed Blade until Flensing Fury is factored in.


I'm skeptical about trying to make Hellions live longer.  I tend to lean into offensive output with them, as they are the one Cult unit that has D2 weapons in abundance.  These can be SM bullies, but i also have found them useful as Monster and Vehicle killers.

I agree with you about trying to make Hellions more durable. Whether they’re T4 or T5 they still only have a 5+/6++. They’re not hard to kill if your enemy wants them dead. I’m leaning towards Cursed Blade because I want them to hit super hard before they die and Str6 with drugs is a great weapon profile for piling wounds on Gravis armor and DG infantry. Plus wounding T3 on 2’s is also nice. It also lets them threaten light vehicles which can be a pain sometimes if you’re only wounding on 5’s. All Wych Cult units are inherently fragile but I want to get maximum damage out of them before they inevitably get vaporized.
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Hellions   How to use Hellions I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 11:22

@sweetbacon wrote:
@False Son wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:

FYI I ran them as Cursed Blade Game 1, and Cult of Strife Game 2. Cult of Strife strat to get a 4++ on a unit would have been great if the opponent didnt psykic it away.

The problem is Cursed Blade is that it commits you to S5, which doesn't help against majority T3 armies.  You would have to use your Combat Drug on Grave Lotus and go to S6.  Not a bad idea, depending on what else is on the field and the type of PfP management you have.  The underrated part of Cursed Blade is the price your opponent pays for charging your units.  It may not be a large number of Mortal Wounds.  It beats not inflicting any damage.

If you want to mitigate Mortal Wound damage, Berserk Fugue is your thing.  It stacks up reasonably well against +1A Cursed Blade until Flensing Fury is factored in.


I'm skeptical about trying to make Hellions live longer.  I tend to lean into offensive output with them, as they are the one Cult unit that has D2 weapons in abundance.  These can be SM bullies, but i also have found them useful as Monster and Vehicle killers.

I agree with you about trying to make Hellions more durable.  Whether they’re T4 or T5 they still only have a 5+/6++.  They’re not hard to kill if your enemy wants them dead. I’m leaning towards Cursed Blade because I want them to hit super hard before they die and Str6 with drugs is a great weapon profile for piling wounds on Gravis armor and DG infantry.  Plus wounding T3 on 2’s is also nice.  It also lets them threaten light vehicles which can be a pain sometimes if you’re only wounding on 5’s.  All Wych Cult units are inherently fragile but I want to get maximum damage out of them before they inevitably get vaporized.

They stop to being fragile when they fly from an Obscuring scenery to an enemy unit, kills it, and then gain a 4++ until your next turn.
Repeat this every turn, gg.
But you need Strife for that.
PS: remember that, if you need, for 2CP you double the drugs, bouncing them at T6.
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Hellions   How to use Hellions I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 14:46

I have had been having this debate in my head with Hellions as well: Cursed Blade vs Strife.
I like that I can get an 8" charge out of DS with Strife. Always fighting first is also nice, incase of the charge. I feel like Strife allows Hellions to be more reliable, and potentially more durable via strats. Strife allows for more reliability for damage and charges, etc.
Cursed Blade really allows for offensive output of Hellions to shine. Base Str. 5 is very good. The Mortals are a nice touch and have the possibility of really doing some damage as they do have two wounds. You also can give them T5 drugs and make them a solid unit more often. But, losing the charge distance (especially for DS) and fighting first if counter charged w/ Strife strats seems a lot to give up.
I will be trying them with Strife first because my plan is to DS so my other vehicle and units can take advantage of the Obscuring Terrain. I will also roll drugs for them with Strife and see how it goes.
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Vailex
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Hellions   How to use Hellions I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 15:53

@Cerve wrote:
@sweetbacon wrote:
@False Son wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:

FYI I ran them as Cursed Blade Game 1, and Cult of Strife Game 2. Cult of Strife strat to get a 4++ on a unit would have been great if the opponent didnt psykic it away.

The problem is Cursed Blade is that it commits you to S5, which doesn't help against majority T3 armies.  You would have to use your Combat Drug on Grave Lotus and go to S6.  Not a bad idea, depending on what else is on the field and the type of PfP management you have.  The underrated part of Cursed Blade is the price your opponent pays for charging your units.  It may not be a large number of Mortal Wounds.  It beats not inflicting any damage.

If you want to mitigate Mortal Wound damage, Berserk Fugue is your thing.  It stacks up reasonably well against +1A Cursed Blade until Flensing Fury is factored in.


I'm skeptical about trying to make Hellions live longer.  I tend to lean into offensive output with them, as they are the one Cult unit that has D2 weapons in abundance.  These can be SM bullies, but i also have found them useful as Monster and Vehicle killers.

I agree with you about trying to make Hellions more durable.  Whether they’re T4 or T5 they still only have a 5+/6++.  They’re not hard to kill if your enemy wants them dead. I’m leaning towards Cursed Blade because I want them to hit super hard before they die and Str6 with drugs is a great weapon profile for piling wounds on Gravis armor and DG infantry.  Plus wounding T3 on 2’s is also nice.  It also lets them threaten light vehicles which can be a pain sometimes if you’re only wounding on 5’s.  All Wych Cult units are inherently fragile but I want to get maximum damage out of them before they inevitably get vaporized.

They stop to being fragile when they fly from an Obscuring scenery to an enemy unit, kills it, and then gain a 4++ until your next turn.
Repeat this every turn, gg.
But you need Strife for that.
PS: remember that, if you need, for 2CP you double the drugs, bouncing them at T6.

This is true but its hard to hide them sometimes. Especially when you have 15 to 20 of them.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Hellions   How to use Hellions I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 15:58

Dont forget they are Infantry, so can do all the Infantry stuff for terrain/actions/etc.

They are good, but I think Ill play a game without them to see how it goes.
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Alezya
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Hellions   How to use Hellions I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 16:02

@Mononcule wrote:
Thanks! I don't have access to Rust yet, I'll have a look.

Outside of Strife, I was thinking Cursed blade for S5 with +1T drug.

I've played them Cursed Blade as well.

20 Hellions, Cursed Blade.
I've tried both +1T and +1Str.
+1T is nice but imho it's a real glasscannon unit. You have enough movement to hide behind an obscuring. We also play WTC map setups, so plenty of obscuring terrains.
Offense all the way from now on I think.
Base Str6 (we have plenty of marine/DG players in our meta, and they all tend to play Toughness 5 Meq, so the S6 is necessary I think), mortal wounds on the move, mortal wounds on save rolls of 6s (I think it's the best unit to make use of this obsession).

Early pressure on all my games. Move behind an obscuring first turn to prepare the charge on 2nd turn. RR hits strat with Reaver jetbikes, Eviscerating Fly by on support heroes (like foulblight spawn, apothecary), shoot screens, charge a unit, consolidate and start glueing other units if the opportunity presents itself and roll those 6s on saves.

I played without Charadon stratagems so far (but with relics and WL traits), don't ask me why, I don't even know myself lol.
Even if the stratagems are really awesome (if not OP?), I still believe that I need those stratagems on my wyches rather than using them on Hellions. Feel like too CP-vore.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Hellions   How to use Hellions I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 17:37

@Cerve wrote:

They stop to being fragile when they fly from an Obscuring scenery to an enemy unit, kills it, and then gain a 4++ until your next turn.
Repeat this every turn, gg.
But you need Strife for that.
PS: remember that, if you need, for 2CP you double the drugs, bouncing them at T6.

If you are going to be using CPs to increase longevity, use Lightning Fast Reflexes.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Hellions   How to use Hellions I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 14:17

Lightning Fast going down to only 1CP is really nice. But our Jump-Shoot-Jump strat going up to 2CP really hurt our CP pool...
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PostSubject: Re: How to use Hellions   How to use Hellions I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 08 2021, 13:49

@False Son wrote:
@Cerve wrote:

They stop to being fragile when they fly from an Obscuring scenery to an enemy unit, kills it, and then gain a 4++ until your next turn.
Repeat this every turn, gg.
But you need Strife for that.
PS: remember that, if you need, for 2CP you double the drugs, bouncing them at T6.

If you are going to be using CPs to increase longevity, use Lightning Fast Reflexes.

That's a good add, but usually they don't need it (except against no LoS).

It still a pretty good stratagem tho.
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