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 Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units

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Oaka
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Oaka
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PostSubject: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 03 2021, 03:39

This was theory-crafted last night while trying to find a place for Lelith that can't be done better by a custom Succubus.  Due to allowances in the rules for Fight Phase, combined with Lelith's special rules, she can dance her way 12" past the unit she charges provided she kills at least one model in that unit.

Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units Lelith11

Since her second fight happens at the end of the phase, the unit she consolidates into will not be able to fight back.  This could get her into engagement range of a unit of Eradicators, for instance, that are being screened.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 03 2021, 04:43

My goodness. She has a use after all!

Still probably not worth taking. Shenanigans are great, but being a much better beatstick, mild shenanigans, and points savings still makes a regular Succubus the better buy.

This will definitely be worth considering when/if Succubi are on the receiving end of nerf battery.
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 03 2021, 09:48

Is there a missing enemy unit in that diagram, where the second fight is?

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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 03 2021, 11:49

I've seen this elsewhere and if I remember correctly she doesn't have to be in contact with anything for her to activate for the second fight.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 03 2021, 14:16

@Yziel wrote:
I've seen this elsewhere and if I remember correctly she doesn't have to be in contact with anything for her to activate for the second fight.

I think I see. Because she has made a charge move that turn she is still eligible to fight, even if she's not in engagement range. So she gets a pile in move, makes no attacks then consolidates.

Sadly Oaka's tactic doesn't work 100% as described. Check out the rare rules section (page 362), which says that if you use an ability to fight again at the end of the fight phase and consolidate into another unit, that unit still gets to fight. It's useful to avoid overwatch though.

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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 03 2021, 14:29

It's not going to matter often but our other fight twice units should be able to use it for extra movement if they kill the unit to double consolidate right?

I did nor know this was a thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 04 2021, 01:12

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Check out the rare rules section (page 362), which says that if you use an ability to fight again at the end of the fight phase and consolidate into another unit, that unit still gets to fight.

Good catch, thanks for pointing that out!
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 04 2021, 11:03

But it could tie up a shooting unit. Also don't forget she is CoS, so can use the strat to go THRU enemy models to do this
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 04 2021, 18:21

The rules say you can't fight if you're not in engagement range right? So I don't understand this second fight in the above posted picture.

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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 04 2021, 19:57

@Gelmir wrote:
The rules say you can't fight if you're not in engagement range right? So I don't understand this second fight in the above posted picture.

pg. 230- If there are no viable targets (because all enemy units are beyond
Engagement Range etc.) then that unit cannot make close combat attacks,
but it can still consolidate

pg. 228- An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an
enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn.

So this only works if Lelith charged that turn.

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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 08:00

Thanks for the diagram Oaka, I've also been trying to consider how best to make use of Lelith and I think doing as you have suggested above to move past screens or to get to support characters (SM Lieutenants, Apothecaries, SoB imagnifers etc) is the way to go, Lelith can excel at this but it is not easy to get that positioning! (Maybe an CoS army with Lelith and a Voidraven bomber to force your opponent to spread out is the way to go.)

In your diagram, on the second fight activation of Lelith, shouldn't it be Pile in 3" (if you choose to) and then Consolidate in any direction 6"?

I understand your diagram above and even have done similar in the past with Drazhar(8th Ed) after he massacres a unit in one turn after charging.

In the scenario with Drazhar(8th Ed), as he could fight twice on the charge, if he killed the unit he is fighting in one round of combat he can then activate again.

He would then follow the fight sequence, pile in, fight, consolidate.

Now he would never get to fight again as he killed the unit he charged and can't fight a unit he didn't charge( in a turn that he charged) but he could pile in 3" and consolidate 3" giving him a 'free' 6" move towards the closest enemy.

If i'm not wrong then this is another tool Lelith can use to get to where she wants to be and in the right situation can give her an extra 3" move. This also requires that the closest enemy unit in the direction you want to move in but lucky enough pile in is optional.

This would also give her a maximum possible distance traveled in one turn of 44".
(14"Advance, 12" Charge, Pile in 3", Consolidate 6", (Fight again activates), Pile in 3" Consolidate 6")
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 11:01

The rules say that

"When you select unit to fight, it first piles in, then the models MUST make CC atacks, and then the unit consolidates."

For me it means that if you not making atacks, you can not consolidate. The thing with fighting with 0 atacks seems to be pretty sloppy. THB I want be wrong here, so please prove.

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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 13:34

@SERAFF
The rule I quoted on page 230 of the core rulebook specifically mentions you still get a consolidate move even if you cannot make any attacks.

@JRG
Since you can only pile-in closer to the closest enemy model (Lelith only ignores this on the consolidate move) you would only be back-tracking to the first unit (unless the opponent removes models closest to Lelith as casualties during her first fight, possibly making that second unit have closer models after she consolidates 6" towards it).

As was pointed out earlier, the unit that Lelith consolidates into at the end of the fight phase does get to swing on her, so it's not as useful to get to a character that might be able to do some damage back. I was thinking it would be more useful to tag an artillery vehicle or ranged unit and preventing it from shooting, as those tend to be positioned up to 12" behind screening units with confidence.
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 15:14

Is it true that if our master succubus stays in base to base contact, she can't consolidate at all?

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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 15:56

@Oaka wrote:
@Gelmir wrote:
The rules say you can't fight if you're not in engagement range right? So I don't understand this second fight in the above posted picture.

pg. 230- If there are no viable targets (because all enemy units are beyond
Engagement Range etc.) then that unit cannot make close combat attacks,
but it can still consolidate

pg. 228- An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an
enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn.

So this only works if Lelith charged that turn.

Awesome, thanks! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 16:04

@SERAFF wrote:
Is it true that if our master succubus stays in base to base contact, she can't consolidate at all?

For a Master Succubus, yes, because her consolidate needs to get her closer to the closest enemy unit. But when already in base to base contact, that is impossible.

Lelith overrules this with her rule that consolitation doesn't need to be towards the closest enemy model.

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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 16:12

@Gelmir wrote:
For a Master Succubus, yes, because her consolidate needs to get her closer to the closest enemy unit. But when already in base to base contact, that is impossible.

Lelith overrules this with her rule that consolitation doesn't need to be towards the closest enemy model.

...No?

The Codex wrote:
Show Stealer (fluff text removed for brevity)
Each time this model makes a consolidation move, it can move an additional 3'', and it does not have to finish this move closer to the closest enemy model.

The wording of the rule is identical to Lelith's "Deadly Dance" rule, much like how Urien Rakarth has the exact same resurrection rule as any generic Master Haemonculus.
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 16:26

Oops, missed that. Thanks for correcting me. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 17:13

@mynamelegend wrote:
@Gelmir wrote:
For a Master Succubus, yes, because her consolidate needs to get her closer to the closest enemy unit. But when already in base to base contact, that is impossible.

Lelith overrules this with her rule that consolitation doesn't need to be towards the closest enemy model.

...No?

The Codex wrote:
Show Stealer (fluff text removed for brevity)
Each time this model makes a consolidation move, it can move an additional 3'', and it does not have to finish this move closer to the closest enemy model.

The wording of the rule is identical to Lelith's "Deadly Dance" rule, much like how Urien Rakarth has the exact same resurrection rule as any generic Master Haemonculus.

Also he was asking about base to base contact. If your Succubus or Lelith base is touching another base after you fight you cannot Consolidate, so make sure you never base contact during a charge or Pile-in.
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PostSubject: Re: Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units   Lelith Trick to Bypass Screening Units I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 09:10

You will never end your pile in move touching the enemy base, that's obvious. But if your opponent charges you, he will be able to lock your succubus in combat. So you will have to fall back in your turn with all the consequenses.

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