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 First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex

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Gelmir
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Gelmir

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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 10 2021, 22:00

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Gelmir wrote:
And about the abuse Count Adhemar mentions, I think it doesn't need to be faqued. The rule says that it gets attacks equal to the attacks that didn't make the damage step. It mentions no attack characteristics. Razor Flails double your attack characteristics, so doesn't apply to those attacks.

Razorflails say "Each time an attack is made with this weapon make 2 hit rolls instead of 1"

Competitive Edge says "make a number of additional attacks against that unit equal to the number of attacks that did not reach the inflict damage step of the attack sequence" so RAW those attacks would indeed be doubled again by the razorflails, which is why I think an Errata will be needed (unless that's intentional).


Ah, crap, you're right. Yeah, then it needs to be FAQ-ed.

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 10 2021, 22:23

Why are you guys talking about tiers and power not in my tier and power thread lol

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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 11 2021, 10:20

Sorry Hero. Razz

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 12 2021, 17:35

@fisheyes i've told you that once my game this week end would be done i'd told you the result..........it was a massacre!!!!! lol i'm the one who've been massacred...........
I'm still not a good strategist at all, i have, since i've started playing last year, a grand total of 5 turns of play.......5......lol so i'm still in the green zone if you ask me Wink

I was playing against SM Iron Fist.....i had the 1st turn, so first of all i rushed in like a brainless maggot (1st HUGE mistake) only to remove 4 models of infantry and wounding 2 of his big tanks.......only to have them healed during his turn, and by shooting everything, wiped more than half of my army in a blink.

So i learned the hard way to use the terrain to my advantage! lol it was a really rough wake-up-call that this game is a game..........but think before acting!!!! lol

Also my list was a big nonsense, i just wanted to try the Realspace Raid........so nothing really had a clear goal in mind, a clear game plan.

I can't wait for my next game cause this time i'll try to be a little bit more cleaver in my units and ability choices, especially regarding the movement, cover and stuff like that to take into account.

next time i'll try something more like: one big detachment of kabal (or Cult or Coven) just to have a clearer game plan, and then after some experiences, i'll try mixing things up a little bit more.
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fisheyes
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 12 2021, 20:48

I got in Game #3 and #4 this weekend. Lost #3 vs Sisters by a little, then won #4 against Chaos Soup by literally 1 point.

Im generally the weakest player in my gaming group, so skill is certainly involved. It is so easy to lose half your army in a turn if your not careful. Equally easy to play too conservative and have nothing in position when you need it.

Are you guys telling your oponent in advance what your stuff does? If someone puts a squishy unit within 18" of my Incubi raider, I will tell them "hey buddy, you know I got a 3" disembark, a 7" move, then advance and charge?"

Its no fun punching defenseless toddlers (well, it is fun, but you shouldent anyway...)

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 12 2021, 21:09

@fisheyes wrote:
I got in Game #3 and #4 this weekend. Lost #3 vs Sisters by a little, then won #4 against Chaos Soup by literally 1 point.

Im generally the weakest player in my gaming group, so skill is certainly involved. It is so easy to lose half your army in a turn if your not careful. Equally easy to play too conservative and have nothing in position when you need it.

Are you guys telling your oponent in advance what your stuff does? If someone puts a squishy unit within 18" of my Incubi raider, I will tell them "hey buddy, you know I got a 3" disembark, a 7" move, then advance and charge?"

Its no fun punching defenseless toddlers (well, it is fun, but you shouldent anyway...)

I always leave room at the beginning of a game, casual, tournament or whatever, to run down my list and at least name out what every unit IS, not what it does. I open that to discussion if someone goes: What do incubi do? and I also try and at least point out the top "gotchas" to my opponent by stating something like: That Succubus is a real blender! just so I can set expectations and it removes feelbad instances in the game, in case my opponent forgets. Games won with the least amount of gotchas leads to better games overall IMO.

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 13 2021, 18:19

in fact we do a quick tour of our units, but once the game is started, i'm left alone........i've only played with one friend (cause of the pandemic) but i have another one who can't wait to play a game with me exactly because he wants to show me the ropes, but for now we can't Sad

meanwhile i've already built a new list, i'll try to post is here (in the proper topic) to see what are your toughts if you have some Smile Thanks in advance!
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KiriONE
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 14 2021, 22:01

I went on a little trip down memory lane and looked at the 5th ed codex. It's amazing how far we've come! This book is looking to be fun and given the drought of wargaming this past year anything new is welcomed. But I can't help but wonder what exactly GW's plan for Dark Eldar are.

To me, DE will always be in a weird place for GW and pretty much continues to serve as a faction for a small community that still sticks around for it. It's a rough balancing act of revenue generation and gameplay. I think we can all agree DE is one of the lesser played factions across the line (even with some more renewed interest in the last 2-3 years or so), and with so many finecast models still in the line what's GW's impetus to actually to write good rules for them. Are they really going to go through the trouble writing incredible rules for Court of the Archon or BM/Beasts when for most people, the best chance of getting those models is on EBAY because both brick and mortar AND online GW store barely have them in stock? Are they going to go through the trouble of a plastic resculpt of a seldom-used unit in a less popular faction? I literally don't consider COTA, Beasts, Grotesques to be part of the book becauase I'll never be willing to spend money on them and frustrate myself with finecast.

DE also have a bit of a fluff issue. While sure there's a ton of grimdark stuff in 40K, DE are probably up there with the most intense and depraved, that makes them somewhat unapproachable for people. It's not easy to comfortably jump in that role in a friendly way against an opponent:

Opponent: Hi nice to meet you, cool models, are those <insert faction>?
You: Yes they are! <Insert secondary response based on faction below>

Imperium: For the Emperor! The Emperor Protects
Eldar: For the Craftworld!
Chaos: Death to the false Emperor! Skulls for the skull throne!
Orks:  (in terrible accent) Red goes fastah! WAAAGH!
Drukhari: I am going to kidnap and torture your family and skin you alive for personal pleasure

Sure Chaos are evil dudes, but they are corrupted by powers far greater than they are able to comprehend. DE on the other hand literally seek this depraved stuff out WILLINGLY. I think that's kind of a high bar to clear for people when there are some more well known "bad guys" out there if you want to play the spoiler and stick it to the Imperium.

In general I think the book is a continued example of the new GW recognizing issues with a faction and improving them. Looking through the previous edition codices I'm not exactly wishing to go back to the PfP table of 5th ed or as was mentioned in another thread 7E detachment nonsense. In the greater context of the game, I think this is the best codex to match the edition it's been released in. It MIGHT even be a step in the direction of renewing interest in the faction to make it generate some noticeable revenue for them.

GW rarely allows any peeking behind the curtain over what their development mindset is for the game, once in awhile we'll get some sort of "dev blog" post around the release of an edition which is usually some sort of PR-sanitized description to generate more interest. So seeing some changes leave you scratching your head because all you can do is guess why the changes were made. Removing FNP from PFP or these turn 4/5 options which are kind of pointless by the time you get to them (in my experience).

The biggest missed opportunity is that we're still without Vect, he's always been a part of the lore, but his absence is even more perplexing to me in light of his elevation to Dark Muse and his involvement with the Ynnari storyline. I mean Drazhar and Lelith are cool and needed new models, but they are at best supporting characters. I mean hell not that many characters in this universe are anything more than one dimensional fighters of some kind, Drazhar literally doesn't speak! But with Vect, You'd have to think someone at GW on the team is asking if now's the time and there's some kind of answer given as to why they are NOT adding him. We're now 3 codices and at the second half of a decade without the most noteworthy character of the faction. With the exception of maybe the Tyranids, and some of the smaller/newer codices, I can't think of a faction who's missing a figure as substantial or greater than Vect.

Excited about this edition by a lot. I still have 2 DE Battleforces in plastic that I'll probably open for the reavers/wyches alone. Sad I can't slap in a little Harlequin Troupe for fluff anymore though.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 15 2021, 16:36

You can still use the Harlies, but it now has a cost. Keep in mind that you can now double up on Lightning Fast Reactions and Fire and Fade due to the strats having different names now Wink

My main issue with the fluff right now is there was no mention of the Chasm Of Woe. That just screamed Dark Eldar. "Dont worry, just throw another sub-realm to the deamons. That will solve the problem". XD
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SirTainly
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 15 2021, 16:47

Ah the 5th ed codex - totally awesome stuff from the days when I enjoyed playing with the dark kin! I was hoping this dex would get me back to playing DE, as I didn't really enjoy them in 6,7 or 8th. Dex looks ok, but I was hoping to ally in my CWE, which looks like a bit of a no no now. Not really sure if I'll return to the fold or keep painting up Death Guard. Decisions decisions...

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 15 2021, 17:33

Yeah, we are in a strange place where i believe this Codex has been generous to us from a rules perspective. However, we haven't gotten a new unit since 5th ed. Meanwhile, SoB are getting units slow dropped seeming every other week. I'm happy with our Codex. I'm just jealous of the neglect from Citadel.
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the_scotsman
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 16 2021, 13:09

first tournament-winning drukhari lists seem to agree with my own assessment, which is:

-Hellions stronk, haters gonna hate
-Competitive Razor succubus not going to make it past a 2-week FAQ, single character getting up to 28 D2 attacks is hilarious but never going to stand
-Mix of all three build is still good, but even mixing all three patrols for the extra 2cp > rsr benefits
-Kabals generally the weakest link, wych cults generally the strongest. Most people were only taking kabals for 1 trueborn unit and then leading the patrol with drazar and taking incubi.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 16 2021, 16:44

@the_scotsman wrote:
Competitive Razor succubus not going to make it past a 2-week FAQ, single character getting up to 28 D2 attacks is hilarious but never going to stand

28 attacks isn't the problem. It's the doubling of the rerolled attacks (for potentially 42 attacks) that's the cheese. GW just need to address that, not the combo itself.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 16 2021, 17:41

@the_scotsman wrote:
first tournament-winning drukhari lists seem to agree with my own assessment, which is:

-Kabals generally the weakest link, wych cults generally the strongest. Most people were only taking kabals for 1 trueborn unit and then leading the patrol with drazar and taking incubi.

I sure hope that isn't how people are building their competitive lists, because that is not a legal patrol. Must have a Master Archon to get trueborn.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 18 2021, 04:03

Another small tournament today. 2-1, lost game 3: 78-80 because I timed out on turn 3 and he had 2 turns to claw back into it.

I suppose that's my main takeaway with the new book at this point. With the potency of melee units, the army just plays a lot slower than it used to. I'm 7 games in with the new book (6 in tournaments) and the ONLY thing that has prevented me from completely tabling every single opponent is the clock.

The new book is just overwhelmingly brutal.
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Luc1fer
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 18 2021, 11:06

@Skulnbonz wrote:
A lot of people will disagree with what I am about to say here, and that is fine. All of this is coming from my personal experience, and as always is just my opinion.  That being said, people might not want to just dismiss what I am saying out of hand because it is not using their new, shiny toys.

First off, 3 patrols is better than a realspace raid.  What you gain in the raid is nice, but it pigeonholes your army to be played a certain way, and that way is NOT the most optimal way.
Why?
Covens.
Covens are neat. Covens are fun. Unless you are going 100% covens though, they are NOT tournament level. they are a tax you have to pay in a realspace raider battalion that maybe will come in handy sometimes (dark creed pretty much. Others are not as beneficial to the realspace raid)
Yes, the haemi with the removing obsec is awesome... but in reality I am not a fan of hoping the stars align for the power to go off when and where you need it.
All covens- fine. You can make it work.
A few units sprinkled in a realspace raid? A tax better spent elsewhere, that is why I prefer 3 patrols.

That leaves Wych cults and Kabals.  Both good, both worth their points, both effective.

If you want to go hand to hand heavy, go two patrols of wyches.
If you want to go shooting heavy, go two patrols of Kabal.

Wyches leave you with two choices... Strife or Cursed blade.
If you go strife, you get all the neat strats and relics. BUT you are pretty much forced to get the +1 str combat drug.  Oh- never take Lelith. a normal succubus is leaps and bounds better than her for the cost.
If you go cursed blade, you are free to crank them up to str 5, or give them an extra attack. A squad of 10 wyches puts out 51 attacks that way.
51.

Either cult you choose is a winner. Seriously. You can't go wrong with either one.

Kabals... there is talk about efficiency/toxin crafters. This is an ideal combo if you are spamming venoms with 2 cannons.  In reality, a venom with 2 cannons is the same cost as a raider. (don't even get me started on the 75/85 debate. it is 85).  Venoms, in my opinion, are one of if not THE most overpriced unit in our codex.  I do not think this is the best price point to pay for long range poison shooting.

That leaves Black Heart and Obsidian Rose.
Black heart is nice.. the reroll to hit is great.
Obsidian rose is nice, the reroll to wound is great.

Vect strat is "meh", obsidian strat is... well, it is better than vect in my opinion, but one you never want to have to use.  If you do, make the darklance and two blasters run... they will get a kill.

If you want to hang back, unleashing poison death at range, the extra 6" on weapons from obsidian rose is nails, and you counter punch with the wych/incubi. (you did take incubi, right?)

If you want to get up close and personal, the +1 PFP is good on the warriors in your raiders, backed up by Wyches and Incubi.

Is it better to have the reroll to hit or the reroll to wound?  The choice is yours.

Kabal units I would avoid:...
Voidravens
Razorwing Jetfighters
and situationally Ravagers. Seriously. If you have 2 blasters and 2 darklances in a raider shooting at 24 and 42" respectively, why take a ravager?  If they destroy the raider, you still have a dark lance and 2 blasters on obsec troops. If they destroy a ravager, you got nothing left.

Wych units I would avoid:
Beasts. The biggest disappointment in the entire codex. I mean they SUCK. they take suckiness to a new, unforseen level of suck. In fact, they suck more than that!
Hellions. Yes, yes, I know... they are as tough as jetbikes! Which leads me to...
Jetbikes.
I know this right here is where I am going to get the most kickback, but if taken rationally, 10 wyches in a raider is leaps and bounds better than jetbikes OR hellions.  Yes, jetbikes and hellions can harass flanks, etc... but we are going for total destruction potential here... not "harrassing".
If you take only 1 kabal patrol, THEN I can see fitting in 2 units of jetbikes with heat lances for anti tank help. But hellions do not make the cut.

Coven units to avoid:
All of them.

My tournament list is 2 patrols of Obsidian rose, and 1 of Cult of Strife. I have 6 raiders with splinter racks and 10 warriors in each with a dark lance and two blasters. 30" double tap range.

Oh.. and as an aside... when anyone gets a chance to reread the stratagem "Prey on the weak"
I think this is our most overlooked strat. It works on vehicles and titanic as well. Just need 1 wound!

So, sorry for the wall of text but you asked...



I think Covens are way better than kabals, tankier, better weapons and more efficent, the best example is that 2x5 wracks with technomancers inside a rider for holden objectives on average kill 5-6 primaris space marines, meanwhile 10 kabalites with the best weapon choice kill 2.7, 3.2 if trueborn.

On the other hand Drazhar and incubi along wyches are all the melee you really need so there is no real point in playing kabals when covens are more efficient in shooting, tankier and also much, much better at holding objectives.

Played 5 games since codex so far and covens even alone (mono covens) are a blast, Wracks 2x5 (2 liquifiers) with a Haemonculus inside a raider are incredibly tanky over all my expectations and hold objectives super well since even bladeguard is gonna think it twice before deciding to move close to you.

Talos are still awesome, slap a haemonculi or two behind them and you got a wall of super tanky bastards with awesome melee and decent AT, standing by third round with a T7 W7 3+6++5+++ -1 to damage received with coven trait, in melee you can advance and charge with 6 S7 -2 AP D2 attacks that absolutely murder marines and light vehicles (with blade artists to boot) and with a heat lance you got BS4 S8 AP-4 D6+2 for only 110ppm (if I remember well), I usually run 6 for mono covens.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 18 2021, 13:09

At this point Venoms are definitely feeling like a loser in the new Codex to me - the new Splinter Cannon profile isn't actually that great in practice and they feel incredibly frail given that they've lost access to defensively beneficial Obsessions while weapons have had their damage upped across the board.

Really struggling to justify even considering taking them in a list over a Raider currently.
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harlokin
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 18 2021, 15:12

@Burnage wrote:
At this point Venoms are definitely feeling like a loser in the new Codex to me - the new Splinter Cannon profile isn't actually that great in practice and they feel incredibly frail given that they've lost access to defensively beneficial Obsessions while weapons have had their damage upped across the board.

Really struggling to justify even considering taking them in a list over a Raider currently.

I agree. I think they are also suffering from the hit penalty cap, and Flayed Skull's fall from grace.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 18 2021, 17:00

My only reason for including Venoms in a list at the moment is purely due to the models I have in my collection. They need a fairly significant points drop in order to be a viable choice compared to the Raider. Which means that the Raider will instead go up in points!

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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 19 2021, 08:11

And even then, the problem with venoms is that before the codex they were also that good because raiders didn’t have units that were really worth it to pay extra to have 11 capacity for a raider instead if a venom that has more guns, but now that wracks are nuts and kabalites are pretty decent, on top of also being an awesome transport for drazhar and 10 incubi (that are absolute murder in this edition lol).

The venom really needs a points drop and something else that makes it a real competition.
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