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 First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex

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sekac
Wych
sekac

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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 17:52

fisheyes wrote:
Im not seeing the "OMG OP!!11!!! " reactions to DE that Dark Angels and Death Guard got at their release. This does seem to be a really well balanced codex, both internally and externally. Requries a high skill level to be played well, but has the tools to do work when the plan comes together Smile

Incubi seem to be a consistent MVP in my lists, along with Dark Lances.

Maybe it is just that we're fragile enough that things don't seem as brutal as other armies, but when it comes to trading resources, which is a lot of what 9th is, we are very good at trading up. Incubi are a good example of that. 5 costs 80 points and can absolutely crush way more than 80 points worth of stuff.

I'm only 4 games in, but a timed game is the only thing that has stopped me from tabling every opponent. Once in 2 turns, twice in 3 turns, it would've taken 3 turns if not for time. Only necrons have taken me 5 turns.

I'm not an amazing player. I consider myself above average and pretty much only play Drukhari (with some souping thru 8th). So maybe it's my experience with the army. But I'm nervous about the nerf bat, because if all my games went to 5 turns, none of them would have been remotely close at the end. Wins by 60+ points each.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 16:00

I imagine your META plays a role in this. We are great when we go up against Marines, because the META generally makes us tech that way. Against a hoard of W2, -1D Death Guard, our damage output drops considerably. Learned that the hard way last weekend Razz
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 17:07

fisheyes wrote:
I imagine your META plays a role in this. We are great when we go up against Marines, because the META generally makes us tech that way. Against a hoard of W2, -1D Death Guard, our damage output drops considerably. Learned that the hard way last weekend Razz

Seems to depend on the list. I recently watched a game from TTT and the verdict was that Kabal-heavy lists are very strong counters to DG.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWVBn4yXfnk
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 17:42

I’ve played DG four times and won pretty handily against tournament lists/players each time. DG lack the speed to score effectively against us and the number of bodies (unless they’re running 80+ Poxwalkers) to efficiently trade with us. We can spam Str 5 attacks with AP which all of their infantry hate. And the Master Haemonculus relic to turn off an aura messes up their most powerful character, the Foul Blightspawn and his fight last abilities. We counter them very well.
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JRG
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 23:44

I've read the goonhammer 9th ed tier list article, listened to a few podcasts like Floridaman 40k etc and a number of the top players/ highly knowledgeable members of the community are now considering Drukhari to be top tier, as good as DG, Sisters, Dark Angels, maybe the best army in the game.

I haven't even had a chance to play a game yet and I'm already hearing people in my group saying Drukhari are too strong and need to be nerfed. (Not something I'm used to hearing 🤣)

What do people here think, I dont think we have ever really been top tier army before, definitely not the best. Is this just new codex hype/ over reaction to a new codex from people and the pros or have GW gone a little power crazy with the Drukhari?
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 00:12

I've seen mixed views. A few people are saying we're OP and need nerfing but most consider us to be a very good, but not broken, codex. I suspect a lot of the fears are due to the standard reaction to anything new, especially the novelty of actually being scared of the Dark Eldar, and will die down in a few weeks or when the next codex comes out.

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 05:15

JRG wrote:
I've read the goonhammer 9th ed tier list article, listened to a few podcasts like Floridaman 40k etc and a number of the top players/ highly knowledgeable members of the community are now considering Drukhari to be top tier, as good as DG, Sisters, Dark Angels, maybe the best army in the game.

I haven't even had a chance to play a game yet and I'm already hearing people in my group saying Drukhari are too strong and need to be nerfed. (Not something I'm used to hearing 🤣)

What do people here think, I dont think we have ever really been top tier army before, definitely not the best. Is this just new codex hype/ over reaction to a new codex from people and the pros or have GW gone a little power crazy with the Drukhari?

I'm probably going to make a stream about this soon. No spoilers Razz

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Cerve
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 06:15

Drukhari are not broken for now, just a meta shifter.

RUST IT IS. Rust is definitely broken, and not just for the succubus.
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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 09:16

The things that are good against DG, Space Marines and Sisters are not neccessarily good against us so I wonder if that's mostly because the meta has not had time to adjust yet.
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Alezya
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 11:46

sekac wrote:

Maybe it is just that we're fragile enough that things don't seem as brutal as other armies, but when it comes to trading resources, which is a lot of what 9th is, we are very good at trading up. Incubi are a good example of that. 5 costs 80 points and can absolutely crush way more than 80 points worth of stuff.

I'm only 4 games in, but a timed game is the only thing that has stopped me from tabling every opponent. Once in 2 turns, twice in 3 turns, it would've taken 3 turns if not for time. Only necrons have taken me 5 turns.

I second this.

Wyches, Incubis and characters are fantastic glass cannons.
Hellions are a bit tankier (even though still relative), specially with Cursed Blade & +1T drug.
They still die vs boltguns, but the trade can be in our favors.

I played vs Necrons (Szerakh, 10 lych guards, 40 necrons warriors, characters, and some immortals/flayed guys) and DG (6 DS, 2 PBC, 5 blightlord, 10 plagues, DP, 2 foulblight, LoV, 2 plaguecaster), I went first in both games, and the games were almost finished by the end of Turn 2-3. Like you, necrons took a little bit more time due to the protocol.

New Dark lances are just faaaaantastic vs DG: 3+d3 is golden vs those 3W -1D guys.

Next opponents are GSC, Black Legion and Tyranids.

Some stuff in the codex + Charadon are "almost" OP though: Mostly Succubus and their loadouts. That lethality for 60-75 pts is just... waow.
I played without the charadon stratagems (that negate a lot of stuff the codex is lacking: rr wounds, ranged 4++ inv), but with WL traits and relics, just to check.
And honestly I see a nerf of Competitive Edge WL trait. That trait is just...

Even the triptych whip is questionable.

The rest, comparatively to other 9th codexes, are strong but fine.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 11:54

Alezya wrote:
And honestly I see a nerf of Competitive Edge WL trait. That trait is just...

I don't think the trait is that bad, it's just the combination with razorflails doubling the number of attacks that you roll again if they don't reach the inflict damage step. These attacks have already been doubled in the first place so GW just need to FAQ it to say it doesn't double again (which, honestly, should just be common sense).

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 13:15

Ive played 2 games so far, and lost both by a fair amount (got tabled Game 1 vs Necrons).

We are a high skill army, with top players being able to do some real damage, but "regular" players either winning big or losing big.

Time will tell with our Tournament Win %s. My prediction will be we have a less than 50% win rate, due to all the "regular" players bringing the average down.

Back when Marines got their 9th edition codex, their average win %s were actually not very high. This was discussed on various podcasts, and the general consensus was that "regular" players were bringing the average down.

Honestly, I think this was a pretty balanced codex. The succubus may go up 10-15 points, and the Razorflail/Competitive Edge combo FAQed(I hope you guys are not playing it where you get exponentially more attacks).

I am pretty confident that the next codex (Ad Mech) will have more "Dark Angles" level OP goodness, and we will fade into the background.

Question: Are people seeing DE as more OP than the last DA and DG codices? IMHO I dont think so.
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Oaka
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 14:22

I think in the hands of an experienced player the codex will do very well. The idea that it is a high skill army is absolutely correct. I am not experienced, so will be defaulting to Artists of the Flesh coven and Cursed Blade wych cults as they require the least amount of combos and planning ahead. Perhaps if I get enough games in I could 'move up' to Dark Creed and Cult of Strife, but right now those strike me as obsessions that are very deadly on paper but will fall apart on me during a game when I forget to do something correctly.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 14:23

fisheyes wrote:
Ive played 2 games so far, and lost both by a fair amount (got tabled Game 1 vs Necrons).

We are a high skill army, with top players being able to do some real damage, but "regular" players either winning big or losing big.

Time will tell with our Tournament Win %s. My prediction will be we have a less than 50% win rate, due to all the "regular" players bringing the average down.

Back when Marines got their 9th edition codex, their average win %s were actually not very high. This was discussed on various podcasts, and the general consensus was that "regular" players were bringing the average down.

Honestly, I think this was a pretty balanced codex. The succubus may go up 10-15 points, and the Razorflail/Competitive Edge combo FAQed(I hope you guys are not playing it where you get exponentially more attacks).

I am pretty confident that the next codex (Ad Mech) will have more "Dark Angles" level OP goodness, and we will fade into the background.

Question: Are people seeing DE as more OP than the last DA and DG codices? IMHO I dont think so.

Sounds like we’ve had pretty different experiences in our respective games so far. But I haven’t played Necrons yet and they’re an army that I think could give us problems.   What did you play in your other game?

With the exception of Space Wolves, people have cried “OP!!!” at every 9th edition codex when it was released. Yes, some people were even saying this about Deathwatch. It’s just a knee jerk reaction to new rules. Sisters and Ad Mech, who are both already arguably S Tier factions even with their 8th edition rules, are the next two books to be released, so I’m confident that calls to nerf us will quickly die down once people turn their attention to those two factions.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 10 2021, 02:27

Oaka wrote:
I think in the hands of an experienced player the codex will do very well.  The idea that it is a high skill army is absolutely correct.  I am not experienced, so will be defaulting to Artists of the Flesh coven and Cursed Blade wych cults as they require the least amount of combos and planning ahead.  Perhaps if I get enough games in I could 'move up' to Dark Creed and Cult of Strife, but right now those strike me as obsessions that are very deadly on paper but will fall apart on me during a game when I forget to do something correctly.

Cult of Stryfe requires the least amount of experience, IMO. Being able to choose to fight first makes other melee armies into corpse delivery services.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 10 2021, 08:43

Count Adhemar wrote:
Alezya wrote:
And honestly I see a nerf of Competitive Edge WL trait. That trait is just...

I don't think the trait is that bad, it's just the combination with razorflails doubling the number of attacks that you roll again if they don't reach the inflict damage step. These attacks have already been doubled in the first place so GW just need to FAQ it to say it doesn't double again (which, honestly, should just be common sense).

Could anybody explain this competitive edge stuff everyone is talking about?
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 10 2021, 09:11

I need to test it again, but for my experience and the other experiences, this codex is simply broken by itself, and Rust makes it even worse. It's very, VERY difficult to lose with this army.
We will se some nerfs (expecially in points going up!) soon. We are way too cheap, and our flaw which is the tougness is a false flaw: if you know how to play Drukhari the opponent will never be able to hit you enough to stop your assault.
We're just obnoxious, mark my words!
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 10 2021, 09:44

CptMetal wrote:
Count Adhemar wrote:
Alezya wrote:
And honestly I see a nerf of Competitive Edge WL trait. That trait is just...

I don't think the trait is that bad, it's just the combination with razorflails doubling the number of attacks that you roll again if they don't reach the inflict damage step. These attacks have already been doubled in the first place so GW just need to FAQ it to say it doesn't double again (which, honestly, should just be common sense).

Could anybody explain this competitive edge stuff everyone is talking about?

Razorflails double your attacks. Competitive Edge makes it so that you get an extra attack for any of your attacks that don't inflict damage. The abusive part is that people are then doubling those attacks too.

Example, you have a Succubus with Adrenalight and Razorflails. She rolls 7 attacks normally, doubled for the flails so 14 attacks. Say 10 of those fail to inflict damage. You then get 10 extra attacks, doubled for the flails, so 20 attacks, for a total of 34 attacks from one model.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 10 2021, 09:52

Cerve wrote:
I need to test it again, but for my experience and the other experiences,  this codex is simply broken by itself, and Rust makes it even worse. It's very, VERY difficult to lose with this army.
We will se some nerfs (expecially in points going up!) soon. We are way too cheap, and our flaw which is the tougness is a false flaw: if you know how to play Drukhari the opponent will never be able to hit you enough to stop your assault.
We're just obnoxious, mark my words!

I can see a few FAQ/Errata fixes for some of the abuse (see above) and points increases for Succubi and Wyches, maybe Incubi, but other than that I think we're fine. Every battle report I've watched with the new codex has us suffering huge casualties so I think the glass part of the glass cannon is fine. The difference with this codex is that we've finally got the cannon part too!

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 10 2021, 12:21

Count Adhemar wrote:
Cerve wrote:
I need to test it again, but for my experience and the other experiences,  this codex is simply broken by itself, and Rust makes it even worse. It's very, VERY difficult to lose with this army.
We will se some nerfs (expecially in points going up!) soon. We are way too cheap, and our flaw which is the tougness is a false flaw: if you know how to play Drukhari the opponent will never be able to hit you enough to stop your assault.
We're just obnoxious, mark my words!

I can see a few FAQ/Errata fixes for some of the abuse (see above) and points increases for Succubi and Wyches, maybe Incubi, but other than that I think we're fine. Every battle report I've watched with the new codex has us suffering huge casualties so I think the glass part of the glass cannon is fine. The difference with this codex is that we've finally got the cannon part too!

Besides Strife Trait, an increase of some points will be enough. I don't feel we have something broken in particular, but we definitely have too much room in 2000 points. I feel like I'm simply overwhelming my opponent, I throw at him too many threats! All of them are lethal. A SM cannot win against us, period.
Damn we're able to make SM players feel made of paper like us, but we deploy three times their threat and we hare twice fasts so...yeah. It's not even fun.

Let's say Succubs 100
Wyches 12
Wracks 9 maybe
Hellions 20 (because now they ARE Reavers, in more aspects)
Incubi 20 (yes I will definitely play 5 of them for 100 points, no doubt on that)

And I guess we're fine now. It would be an average of +100/150 points on the list which would feel more balanced, forcing us to be a bit more carefull. Damn I played against 45 Terminator+Characters and I literally wiped them on three turns just going foward. John Lennon won vs UM Siegler with not so much effort and it was 1717 vs 2000.

We just deploy too much I think.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 10 2021, 13:32

Sisters and Ad Mech are very likely two next two codexes. Before anyone here starts calling to nerf our army because they’re not used to having nice things, let’s wait and see what bonkers good stuff they get first. They’re already incredibly strong factions even with their 8th edition (Sisters is the best army in the game currently) and the trend is a significant power increase for most 9th edition codexes so far. So we may be currently pointed to be competitive with the upcoming 9th edition heavy hitters. Other than the Razor Flail/Competitive Edge combo, nothing in the book feels broken or too cheap for how fragile our units are.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 10 2021, 19:48

The problem is, when you (anyone) will get it, Drukhari are NOT fragile. Far from being it. Simply because their playstyle cut off the chances to strike on them.
Yeah on paper they're fragile.
In game, they're obnoxious. Third game today, ended on turn3, I lost like 19 Hellions and 2 Raiders. And it was the game where I lost most models.
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 10 2021, 20:02

I have a similar experience, I only played 2 games though and both against choppy Marines. We feel really strong at what we do, that is coming down with the ships to soften the targets and then disembark to murder everything.

If anything shoots or slashes my dudes, they are dead, the thing is that they have to disembark me first, and then they are exposed. Exposed corpses. Also, we have a lot of models to mantain objectives.

That being said, we haven't seen how a proper shooty army is going to play (T'au, AdMech), or other assault armies (GSC, Orks). So I would wait to see that. Of course they have to FAQ some of the Succubus aberrations that wonder the Codex.

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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 10 2021, 21:18

So far, I think every 9th edition codex had quite a power-hike compared to their 8th edition codex. So yeah, we are OP now, but I'm not sure that will still be the case when every army has had their 9th edition codex.

And about the abuse Count Adhemar mentions, I think it doesn't need to be faqued. The rule says that it gets attacks equal to the attacks that didn't make the damage step. It mentions no attack characteristics. Razor Flails double your attack characteristics, so doesn't apply to those attacks.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 10 2021, 21:46

Gelmir wrote:
And about the abuse Count Adhemar mentions, I think it doesn't need to be faqued. The rule says that it gets attacks equal to the attacks that didn't make the damage step. It mentions no attack characteristics. Razor Flails double your attack characteristics, so doesn't apply to those attacks.

Razorflails say "Each time an attack is made with this weapon make 2 hit rolls instead of 1"

Competitive Edge says "make a number of additional attacks against that unit equal to the number of attacks that did not reach the inflict damage step of the attack sequence" so RAW those attacks would indeed be doubled again by the razorflails, which is why I think an Errata will be needed (unless that's intentional).


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