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 First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex

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Count Adhemar
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sekac
Wych
sekac

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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 13:54

I think Reapers are better than Ravagers. The Reaper still only has 10 wounds so one less VP on Bring it Down. It also has a much higher spike damage.

33% of the time is has fewer shots than a Ravager (good spot for a CP re-roll), 17% of the time it has the same number of shots, and 50% of the time it has more shots, all the way up to double the number.

It also has something to bring against hordes.

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 14:23

@sekac wrote:
I think Reapers are better than Ravagers. The Reaper still only has 10 wounds so one less VP on Bring it Down. It also has a much higher spike damage.

33% of the time is has fewer shots than a Ravager (good spot for a CP re-roll), 17% of the time it has the same number of shots, and 50% of the time it has more shots, all the way up to double the number.

It also has something to bring against hordes.

hmmm for some strange reason i was honestly under the impression that you cannot use command reroll on the number of shots but i checked and you can... nice one
Also i had not thought about the 10 to 11 wound difference in VP, could be handy in a close game
You made valid points sir, still not bought on the 30 point difference but i will rethink their usefulness ^_^
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 15:04

Skulnbonz makes some very good points but when I'm looking at a Ravager I'm not worried about how many splinter shots are involved. I just want to know about AT capability, and the Ravager is better AT unless you get within the 18" range of the blasters inside the Raider (and even then it's marginal).

I think my lists will probably still include at least 1 Ravager for the moment because there's nothing more frustrating than having a huge melee threat in the form of Wyches or Incubi but being unable to get to the juicy targets because you can't crack open their transports.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 15:27

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I just want to know about AT capability, and the Ravager is better AT

I understand, but I just realized I forgot to list probably the MOST important benefit to a raider/ warrior combo over a ravager.

It ignores the rule of 3.

You can only have 3 ravagers.

I have 6 of the raider/warrior combos in my list.

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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 16:04

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
I just want to know about AT capability, and the Ravager is better AT  

I understand, but I just realized I forgot to list probably the MOST important benefit to a raider/ warrior combo over a ravager.

It ignores the rule of 3.

You can only have 3 ravagers.

I have 6 of the raider/warrior combos in my list.

That's true, although you could skirt around that by taking 3 Ravagers and 3 Reapers (horrendously expensive ofc).

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HERO
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 16:18

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
I just want to know about AT capability, and the Ravager is better AT  

I understand, but I just realized I forgot to list probably the MOST important benefit to a raider/ warrior combo over a ravager.

It ignores the rule of 3.

You can only have 3 ravagers.

I have 6 of the raider/warrior combos in my list.

Hmm, I see why there was an earlier, somewhat distasteful comment about why you think your list is the best. I think its because you're overselling the Warrior/Raider combo while not giving credit where it's due for the Ravager.

Let me try and explain a bit better, and bring up some points that you ommitted during your earlier presentation.

First, the Ravager and Raider are just different beasts. One is a transport and the other is a dedicated anti-tank platform. This means you can sit at 36" inches all day and still be a threat. I think the safety of range is its biggest boon.

Your comparison to having a more flexible platform is true with Poison shots, and the 24" blasters are nice, but they're still D6 damage vs. the Dark Lance's fixed 3+D3, and also locks you into Obsidian Rose. What if I don't want Obsidian Rose in my list? List variety is a great thing that you mentioned earlier and our new book enables that flexibility. However, if I'm not saturating the field with gunboats and want to play a shooting/melee hybrid, Ravagers fill in a vital spot in a list and that's dedicated anti-tank.

So to sum up, the biggest boons of the Ravager is:
Fills in the AT slot with a dedicated unit, more flexible in list building
36" AT shots
More AT damage from long-range
Costs less than a gunboat

I can't stress the importance of 36" range and still getting your AT fix though. There's a lot of things in the game that threaten (like actual threaten aka move/shoot, move/advance/charge) at the 18-24, not much when it comes to 36 unless you're trading AT shots. Which can be cool, if you want attention off your other things i.e. Raiders filled with Wyches.

Lastly, why not both? Maybe not in YOUR specific list, with specific gameplan and obsession, but for other lists that just want 3 Dark Lances, a Ravager is a solid pick.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 16:54

@HERO wrote:


Lastly, why not both? Maybe not in YOUR specific list, with specific gameplan and obsession, but for other lists that just want 3 Dark Lances, a Ravager is a solid pick.
Oh, I agree 100%
Though, point of fact, I never did say my list was best. Also, I did say:
@skulnbonz wrote:
Kabal units I would avoid:...
Voidravens
Razorwing Jetfighters
and situationally Ravagers.
(emphesis mine)

Situationally.
I just wanted to open some eyes to some players who thought the Ravager was the only anti tank Kabal unit, when the other option is better in some ways (and as admitted, worse in others, like the 3 shots at 3+ to hit after moving)

If I took 2 wych patrols and 1 kabalite, I would probably have 2 ravagers in it. (black heart, as I seem to miss the shot more than I fail to wound).
It is just what fits a list better, but there is more than one option.

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 16:57

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@HERO wrote:


Lastly, why not both? Maybe not in YOUR specific list, with specific gameplan and obsession, but for other lists that just want 3 Dark Lances, a Ravager is a solid pick.
Oh, I agree 100%
Though, point of fact, I never did say my list was best.  Also, I did say:
@skulnbonz wrote:
Kabal units I would avoid:...
Voidravens
Razorwing Jetfighters
and situationally Ravagers.
(emphesis mine)

Situationally.
I just wanted to open some eyes to some players who thought the Ravager was the only anti tank Kabal unit, when the other option is better in some ways (and as admitted, worse in others, like the 3 shots at 3+ to hit after moving)

If I took 2 wych patrols and 1 kabalite, I would probably have 2 ravagers in it.  (black heart, as I seem to miss the shot more than I fail to wound).
It is just what fits a list better, but there is more than one option.

Yup, never said you said that, just saying that it was implied Smile

Glad we could clear it up. Cheers bud.

My 30 Wyches have work to do soon!

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 17:16

By my math, the Trueborn Partybus costs a lot more

85 - Raider (without any upgrades)
100 - 10 Trueborn
35 - 2 Blasters and a Lance
15 - "Master" upgrade for your Archon (assuming you are bringing one)
=220/235 pts Total (if you count the Master upgrade)

That costs a fair amount more than a Ravager. TBF it does have more shots, but only 2 are "real" lances with the Damage:3+D3 (of course they do have more accuracy, so I imagine it roughly equals out). I doubt non-trueborn partybus is as effective due to the accuracy drop off.

Would love to take more Kabal stuff, they are my favorite paint scheme in my DE force
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 17:36

I have no trueborn in my list.
I feel the 15 point upgrade to master archon is not worth the benefit.

I DO have bloodbrides. I feel the 15 point upgrade to a succubus should be mandatory! Very Happy

All the scenerios I posted, they were all based on normal warriors, not trueborn.

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harlokin
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 17:49

Does anyone know what the model is on page 87 of the codex, top photograph, riding on the Razorwing Jetfighter? On closer inspection, the Razorwing looks like it has a weird 'turret' on the top too.

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Erebus
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 18:22

@harlokin wrote:
Does anyone know what the model is on page 87 of the codex, top photograph, riding on the Razorwing Jetfighter? On closer inspection, the Razorwing looks like it has a weird 'turret' on the top too.
The "turret" is a Hellion skyboard. The model is a kit bash made from the body of a dark elf sorceress, Scourge head, right arm from the Raider passengers, and weighted flail (not to be confused with the Razorflail) left arm from Wyches.

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harlokin
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 18:44

@Erebus wrote:
@harlokin wrote:
Does anyone know what the model is on page 87 of the codex, top photograph, riding on the Razorwing Jetfighter? On closer inspection, the Razorwing looks like it has a weird 'turret' on the top too.
The "turret" is a Hellion skyboard. The model is a kit bash made from the body of a dark elf sorceress, Scourge head, right arm from the Raider passengers, and weighted flail (not to be confused with the Razorflail) left arm from Wyches.

Thanks very much. That's pretty cool....if only GW weren't so prissy about 'no model no rules'. Sad

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 20:08

Hmm, I thought it was just a Venom in front of the Razorwing, hiding in its shadow.

But that opinion was based on the leaked images, have not double checked my actual Codex

EDIT: That would be an awesome conversion, and a good reason to bring a flyer onto the tabletop ;D
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 01 2021, 12:54

About Voidravens...well, I would play 3 of them or none. Because if you have T1 it will be a free win
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Yziel
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 01 2021, 13:28

I'm not sure I'd build a strategy around going first, the opponent clumping up and me winning a bunch of coinflips.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 01 2021, 13:54

Went thru the codex pictures last night regarding the gal riding the RWJF. It IS a conversion where they have mounted a "throne" onto the flyer. Bloody Epic, I want 3!

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 01 2021, 21:30

@fisheyes wrote:
By my math, the Trueborn Partybus costs a lot more

85 - Raider (without any upgrades)
100 - 10 Trueborn
35 - 2 Blasters and a Lance
15 - "Master" upgrade for your Archon (assuming you are bringing one)
=220/235 pts Total (if you count the Master upgrade)

That costs a fair amount more than a Ravager. TBF it does have more shots, but only 2 are "real" lances with the Damage:3+D3 (of course they do have more accuracy, so I imagine it roughly equals out). I doubt non-trueborn partybus is as effective due to the accuracy drop off.

Would love to take more Kabal stuff, they are my favorite paint scheme in my DE force

They aren't exactly the same things. Trueborn ignore modifiers, so they perform not just 1/6 better, but also ignore penalties from woods, flyers and so on. They will not be effected by damage brackets, like the Ravager (although mitigated by PfP). They will also retain the majority of their firepower when the Raider is destroyed.
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rtynd057
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 04 2021, 00:58

Has anyone tried out 3 x 20 man PoF wracks? Huge flood of board control that negates the advantage of strength 5, 6 and 7 weapons?

That’s 480 points, sure but I think it could really control the board and pressure your opponent to remove them.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 04 2021, 03:29

Played a small tournament today, my first 3 battles with the new book. I think Drukhari are incredibly powerful. I technically went 2-1, but that was only because we only managed 2 turns. My opponent wasn't intentionally slow playing, but he was very conversational and didn't roll dice while talking. If it had gone on 1 more turn, he would've been nearly tabled. Everything except 1 empty valkyrie that was off the board at the time.

Otherwise, I tabled my first opponent (Imperial Fists) in 3 turns. Tabled my last opponent (1k Sons/Alpha Legion) in 2 turns. Including completely zoning out the entire table so his 10 Terminators in deep strike just died. It was absolutely brutal.

I don’t really know what to say that hasn't already been said.

I went with Obsidian Rose for my Kabal and was very happy with them. The extra range and re-roll 1 wound just makes them incredibly efficient. I may play with BH soon, but I think they're best in Realspace Raiders.

I went with Dark Technomancers for my Coven. Pretty minimalist. Drazhar, 2 squads of 5 wracks with double liqs, 2 Raiders with Disintegrators and grisly trophies. They were fantastic.

I went with Cult of Strife because of course I did.

Drukhari are going to change the meta.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 04 2021, 05:40

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Just throwing up this ravager/raider and warrior comparison.
Lets do both Obsidian Rose.

Ravager toughness: 6
Raider toughness: 6

Ravager armor saves: 4+/5++
Raider armor saves : 4+/5++

Ravager Wounds: 11
Raider wounds: 10.
Ravager has ONE more wound than a raider, but gives up twice as many "bring it down" points.  Pretty much a dead even battle so far. The ravager and raider are exactly the same durability wise except the Ravager has one single extra wound.  One.

Ravager unit wounds: 11
Raider unit wounds: 20, 10 of which are individual models.  
This is the firepower it would take to remove the entire unit from the board.  The Ravager, being a single model is susceptible to multi-wound weapons, as is the raider. The difference is when the raider drops, up to 10 individual models fall out, and they could care less about multi wound weapons.

Ravager Cost: 140
Raider unit cost: 190  50 points more than a ravager. But lets see what you get for that 50 points you do NOT get with a Ravager.
• Raider unit can advance and still shoot 2 anti tank weapons. Ravager nope.
• Raider unit can target 4 targets for anti tank weapons, and still have 7 possible double tap poison weapons for non tank units. Ravager is max 3 tank targets.
• If the raider is destroyed, the troops that fall out are obsec. Ravager is just gone.
• Troops can disembark, giving linebreaker or engage on all fronts with just that single model. Ravager is just a single model
• The Raider AND the troops inside each get a free reroll to wound. The Ravager just gets 1

The ONLY thing the ravager is better at than the raider/warriors is:
• The ravager can move and still hit with 3 weapons at 42" on a 3+.  The raider has one shot at 42" on a 3+, one on a 4+, and 2 at 24" on a 3+.

With the speed of the raider, it is VERY likely that you can hover at that exact 24" range, giving you 1 dark lance and 2 blasters hitting on 3+, with a free darklance thrown in on a 4+, but wait, there's more! Free 14 poison shots.
If you do not move, it is all 4 on a 3+, and the ravager just can't compete at that point in  my opinion.

I think overall, the biggest draw for me is that if a baneblade draws down with a volcano lance on my Ravager, it is off the table. If it does on my raider, I lose 1 shot.

Just something to think about.

But aren't blasters still Damage D6, whereas lances are 3+D3?

EDIT: Nevermind.


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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 04 2021, 06:05

Yeah blasters are D6. He's arguing that the flexibility of the Raider+2x Kabalites outweighs the more direct efficiency of a single Ravager.

In my mind, they are just different. To get the maximum efficiency of Raiders with embarked blasters, they need to be moving to the mid-board. Ravagers do quite well sitting in the backfield, where they can more easily minimize return fire and also zone out potential backfield deep strikers. If a raider is sitting in the back, it's just wasting its higher points cost.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 04 2021, 10:55

Played my second game with the new codex, lost again but was much closer this time.

Went up against a double Levi dreadnaught list and had two Ravagers and a Warrior squad with the lance+2 blasters. Got to say, I did enjoy having the extra durability. Even if they nuked the transit, I still had the lance+blaster.

His list had a lot of -1D abilities, which really hampered all the D2 weapons. It helped once I remembered Incubi get D3 on 6s, but I think it's important to bring more D3 weapons than I thought. Will try a Master Archon+ true born instead of my second Succubus next game

Lances were the MVP. Reavers and Hellions went splat. Need to get better at rationing them...
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 04 2021, 12:59

I’ve played four games with new book so far.  

My biggest takeaway is that GW really does seem to have finally lived up to the design philosophy of making us a true glass cannon army.  We are MUCH more lethal across the board.  The most pleasant surprise is how much damage our basic troops can do.  Wyches, obviously, but also DT Wracks, and BH Kabalites with special weapons.  

And we’re now arguably as good, if not better, than Sisters at trading up with our units, which is one of the reasons they’re arguably the best army in the game.  And we can bring a LOT of stuff.  My armies are, averaging between 80-120 models each game.  We have enough bodies in the crucial mid-turns to hit hard for 2-3 turns and put most opponents on the back foot.  

But we still die to a stiff breeze.  Against an elite gunline like an optimized Ad Mech army , we’re going to struggle because they can easily kill all of our boats in 1-2 turns.  Indirect fire and regular bolter fire is still the bane of our existence.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 05 2021, 15:42

Im not seeing the "OMG OP!!11!!! " reactions to DE that Dark Angels and Death Guard got at their release. This does seem to be a really well balanced codex, both internally and externally. Requries a high skill level to be played well, but has the tools to do work when the plan comes together Smile

Incubi seem to be a consistent MVP in my lists, along with Dark Lances.
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