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 First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 13:22

Now that we've had a few days to play with the new codex, how are people feeling about it?

Curious to see how others are playing the True Kin, and what empirical results are showing.

My first thoughts are that we're now a "Nuke" faction similar to Sisters, where it's all about trading up units, focusing our fire power in certain areas and overwhelming the enemy. Than using it speed to locate another weak area and repeating.

MVPs for this strategy from my game was the Incubi, Succubus, and Raiders. My next list will max out those units.

I would prefer to read results from actual games, rather than people Theoryhammer.

For the record, I lost my first game pretty hard (didn't deploy enough nuke units within charging range of the middle objectives, and underestimated the toughness of scarabs with their 5++)

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 15:18

sadly i don't have any games played with the new codex (not this week end but the next i have a game scheduled with a friend) so i'll try to share my experience when that will be done.

Without being in the theoryhammer, all i can say is that i'm more than happy about our Codex. The fun factor is everywhere inside it! Every subfactions seems playable and good at their job, and load of customization options for every of them.

The Cult i'm especially trilled by is the Red Grief with their +2 advance and reroll charge on everything knowing that starting turn 2 we can charge and advance.
I've purchased the Charadon book, so Cult of Strife will be amazing too!

As for our transport's capacity, is has completely changed the game and they way we build our list, and that is simply amazing!!

So in 2 weeks i'll share my feeling after an actual game Smile
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 15:37

Played quite a few. More practice coming before a GT next month.
there are real traps point-wise in this codex, and competitively, they don't add up, though they certainly are fun to play.
A powerful trend pops up when playing, so I am focusing on that for tournament play.
In a way, our best army build (in my opinion) is not that different than our previous builds.

Mathhammer and theoryhammer are great, but nothing beats models on the table experience.

the only thing I am truly missing from last edition is the single sllyth model. The closest thing we have to it nowadays is a 75 point mandrake unit. Ugh.

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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 16:58

@Skulnbonz, any chance you could share some details? My only game is against Necrons, so I didnt really get to make use of our D2 weapons.

I did enjoy Chain Snares on my Raiders. Got the last 2 wounds on a Wraith, which just made me feel great Smile Next game I will go with Dark Creed and Grisly Trophies instead, and report back on how those felt in my semi-competitive environment.

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 17:13

Dark Creed with Drazhar and Incubis is a formula i wanna try too!
I don't have my book with me, but if i remember correctly, there is a Kabal ability or unit, i'm not sure, who plays with the leadership of the opponent to do some stuffs, so that would make a good combo i think.
I would be really pleased if you could get your feedback on the Dark creed covens when you will have tried them Smile
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 17:17

-1 Leadership is the Dark Creed. Their WLT turns off Obsec if you roll over the enemy units LD with 3D6 (average of 10.5, nearly 90% chance to pass against LD9).

Skari has been doing work with Dark Creed, but he is next level stuff. Dont know if my 33% win rate will do the subfaction justice Razz
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 17:26

I've played 2 games so far, on TTS, until hopefully EoM next month where our regular playing group has their vaccines. Local meta is marine heavy with MEQ, Sisters, Necrons, and Guard.

First game vs. Dark Angels, second game vs. Necrons. All of which is using my Kabal/Wych list here:
https://www.thedarkcity.net/t19165-hero-s-new-book-and-new-lists

Secondaries that I've taken for both games is Engage, Scramblers and Take Them Alive! (our Drukhari one). I have a good amount of melee in my list, but it's still a zoning style list that plays with angles, LoS and whittles the enemy down with shooting, before delivering killing blows with counter-charging.

Big observations:
New Lances hurt, a lot. I have 19 of them with Black Heart re-rolls. The Silent King ate crap on T1 from just 9 of them. Can you imagine something that doesn't have invuls?

I'm thinking about changing the list a bit to get more MSU to play missions better. Engage was pretty easy to secure as I can draw firing angles, but it goes against the 24" playstyle of the list in the beginning so you end up losing points if you don't be aggressive. Raiders can certainty get us there.

Scramblers is fairly easy if you outflank a small Wych unit once you clear up a board some, otherwise they just got blown up. However, there's def better units for task (i.e. DT Liquidfier Wracks).

Assassinate from Shooting and not from melee might be better, something to think about.

A huge takeaway from the games is to run your heroes like a hit squad; sticking together to remove threats in melee. You want to play Herohammer if you're running a list like mine, as both the Succubi are huge threats by themselves, but for tougher targets like Inner Circle terminators, you need to bring everyone.

So what would I change about my list, possibly bring some more MSU. However, the more MSU I bring, the less value from Splinter Racks, and less control you have at range.

A delicate balance in our book will be: How much shooting vs. how much melee? I feel that there's an ideal balance somewhere and at times, I feel like I had enough melee but, I know if my heroes died more, I would lose larger chunks of melee

Wyches die like bitches, everyone knows this, but they do a good amount of damage.

We should use our melee like rockets and fire-and-forget missiles. Meaning, I can see value in MSU melee especially: 5x Incubi, 5x Wyches. Do not expect them to last long after they get blasted out of a transport (all my Bloodbrides died in T2 after a Raider went down vs. Necorns).

Triple Patrols are the way to go, RSR is a fluff-trap and not suitable for competitive play IMO.

Will add more later.

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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 17:59

A lot of people will disagree with what I am about to say here, and that is fine. All of this is coming from my personal experience, and as always is just my opinion. That being said, people might not want to just dismiss what I am saying out of hand because it is not using their new, shiny toys.

First off, 3 patrols is better than a realspace raid. What you gain in the raid is nice, but it pigeonholes your army to be played a certain way, and that way is NOT the most optimal way.
Why?
Covens.
Covens are neat. Covens are fun. Unless you are going 100% covens though, they are NOT tournament level. they are a tax you have to pay in a realspace raider battalion that maybe will come in handy sometimes (dark creed pretty much. Others are not as beneficial to the realspace raid)
Yes, the haemi with the removing obsec is awesome... but in reality I am not a fan of hoping the stars align for the power to go off when and where you need it.
All covens- fine. You can make it work.
A few units sprinkled in a realspace raid? A tax better spent elsewhere, that is why I prefer 3 patrols.

That leaves Wych cults and Kabals. Both good, both worth their points, both effective.

If you want to go hand to hand heavy, go two patrols of wyches.
If you want to go shooting heavy, go two patrols of Kabal.

Wyches leave you with two choices... Strife or Cursed blade.
If you go strife, you get all the neat strats and relics. BUT you are pretty much forced to get the +1 str combat drug. Oh- never take Lelith. a normal succubus is leaps and bounds better than her for the cost.
If you go cursed blade, you are free to crank them up to str 5, or give them an extra attack. A squad of 10 wyches puts out 51 attacks that way.
51.

Either cult you choose is a winner. Seriously. You can't go wrong with either one.

Kabals... there is talk about efficiency/toxin crafters. This is an ideal combo if you are spamming venoms with 2 cannons. In reality, a venom with 2 cannons is the same cost as a raider. (don't even get me started on the 75/85 debate. it is 85). Venoms, in my opinion, are one of if not THE most overpriced unit in our codex. I do not think this is the best price point to pay for long range poison shooting.

That leaves Black Heart and Obsidian Rose.
Black heart is nice.. the reroll to hit is great.
Obsidian rose is nice, the reroll to wound is great.

Vect strat is "meh", obsidian strat is... well, it is better than vect in my opinion, but one you never want to have to use. If you do, make the darklance and two blasters run... they will get a kill.

If you want to hang back, unleashing poison death at range, the extra 6" on weapons from obsidian rose is nails, and you counter punch with the wych/incubi. (you did take incubi, right?)

If you want to get up close and personal, the +1 PFP is good on the warriors in your raiders, backed up by Wyches and Incubi.

Is it better to have the reroll to hit or the reroll to wound? The choice is yours.

Kabal units I would avoid:...
Voidravens
Razorwing Jetfighters
and situationally Ravagers. Seriously. If you have 2 blasters and 2 darklances in a raider shooting at 24 and 42" respectively, why take a ravager? If they destroy the raider, you still have a dark lance and 2 blasters on obsec troops. If they destroy a ravager, you got nothing left.

Wych units I would avoid:
Beasts. The biggest disappointment in the entire codex. I mean they SUCK. they take suckiness to a new, unforseen level of suck. In fact, they suck more than that!
Hellions. Yes, yes, I know... they are as tough as jetbikes! Which leads me to...
Jetbikes.
I know this right here is where I am going to get the most kickback, but if taken rationally, 10 wyches in a raider is leaps and bounds better than jetbikes OR hellions. Yes, jetbikes and hellions can harass flanks, etc... but we are going for total destruction potential here... not "harrassing".
If you take only 1 kabal patrol, THEN I can see fitting in 2 units of jetbikes with heat lances for anti tank help. But hellions do not make the cut.

Coven units to avoid:
All of them.

My tournament list is 2 patrols of Obsidian rose, and 1 of Cult of Strife. I have 6 raiders with splinter racks and 10 warriors in each with a dark lance and two blasters. 30" double tap range.

Oh.. and as an aside... when anyone gets a chance to reread the stratagem "Prey on the weak"
I think this is our most overlooked strat. It works on vehicles and titanic as well. Just need 1 wound!

So, sorry for the wall of text but you asked...



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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 19:27

@Skulnbonz wrote:

Coven units to avoid:
All of them.

All of them?What about DT drive by shooting?
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 20:07

@CptMetal wrote:
@Skulnbonz wrote:

Coven units to avoid:
All of them.

All of them?What about DT drive by shooting?

not even that just Drazhar and three five man Wrack units with 2 Liquid guns each, then outflank for 1 CP. 315pts
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 20:24

Ive played 3 games so far with the codex against DG and White Scars. So not crap tier by any means and with good generals behind them. The DG list is very heavy on PBC's, Defilers, and Contemptors with Vulkites. Very shooty. The WS list is pretty typical attack bikes, Van Vets with JP. And your HQ blob with healing and auras.

Game 1 vs DG I brought a RSR with BH, RG and Artists of Flesh. We probably did not have enough terrain or LOS but this was a super shooty DG list and it popped too many transports turn 1. I learned that Talos cannot be depended on for shooting so I lost that one handily. Going second sucks.

Game 2 vs same DG list. My list was 3 Patrols, PT, CoS, and Artists of Flesh. I went first this time and the Talos did their job by absorbing a crap ton of fire power. Its funny because I scored around 90 points and got tabled beating him by about 30 points. More LoS terrain helped even out the game. He was able to pick out drazhar as I left him a bit exposed but I feel that if Draz made it into his lines i could have popped a few more vehicles. I got aggressive and tagged as many vehicles as I could and maxing Primary objectives quickly. Raise the banners on 3 objectives worked great as well. Bikes did work here, hellions not so much. Wyches did great and so did the Succubus.

Game 3 vs WS list. My list was basically the same as game 2. I really ended up using my CoS strats a bit more here. I went first and moved forward far enough to counter charge onto objectives. Because WS are just as fast as us and hit like a truck. He had to come to me because of Oath of Moment. So there was a giant scrum in the middle and wave after wave of my guys flew in doing damage. The Ravager did great here taking out attack bikes. I remembered to use my Raiders to attack things and help take primaries away from him. It was something like 86 to 60' my win in the end. Wyches did great, bikes did excellent, Hellions did awesome.

In all of these games the Animus Vitae did great for me except for game 2 where I didnt really use it. True born did awesome in every game too. They are auto include in every list for me.


My next list I will try is a DT liquefier list I posted in the army list forum.

The book is great so far. Nothing broken, pretty good balance. Too many things to choose from hurts my brain.

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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 20:29

Ty @skullnbonz, that was an interesting point of view, especially for the ravager/trueborn comparison. I'll be keeping an eye on those units next game to see if I agree
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 21:15

@Skulnbonz wrote:
A lot of people will disagree with what I am about to say here, and that is fine. All of this is coming from my personal experience, and as always is just my opinion.  That being said, people might not want to just dismiss what I am saying out of hand because it is not using their new, shiny toys.

First off, 3 patrols is better than a realspace raid.  What you gain in the raid is nice, but it pigeonholes your army to be played a certain way, and that way is NOT the most optimal way.
Why?
Covens.
Covens are neat. Covens are fun. Unless you are going 100% covens though, they are NOT tournament level. they are a tax you have to pay in a realspace raider battalion that maybe will come in handy sometimes (dark creed pretty much. Others are not as beneficial to the realspace raid)
Yes, the haemi with the removing obsec is awesome... but in reality I am not a fan of hoping the stars align for the power to go off when and where you need it.
All covens- fine. You can make it work.
A few units sprinkled in a realspace raid? A tax better spent elsewhere, that is why I prefer 3 patrols.

That leaves Wych cults and Kabals.  Both good, both worth their points, both effective.

If you want to go hand to hand heavy, go two patrols of wyches.
If you want to go shooting heavy, go two patrols of Kabal.

Wyches leave you with two choices... Strife or Cursed blade.
If you go strife, you get all the neat strats and relics. BUT you are pretty much forced to get the +1 str combat drug.  Oh- never take Lelith. a normal succubus is leaps and bounds better than her for the cost.
If you go cursed blade, you are free to crank them up to str 5, or give them an extra attack. A squad of 10 wyches puts out 51 attacks that way.
51.

Either cult you choose is a winner. Seriously. You can't go wrong with either one.

Kabals... there is talk about efficiency/toxin crafters. This is an ideal combo if you are spamming venoms with 2 cannons.  In reality, a venom with 2 cannons is the same cost as a raider. (don't even get me started on the 75/85 debate. it is 85).  Venoms, in my opinion, are one of if not THE most overpriced unit in our codex.  I do not think this is the best price point to pay for long range poison shooting.

That leaves Black Heart and Obsidian Rose.
Black heart is nice.. the reroll to hit is great.
Obsidian rose is nice, the reroll to wound is great.

Vect strat is "meh", obsidian strat is... well, it is better than vect in my opinion, but one you never want to have to use.  If you do, make the darklance and two blasters run... they will get a kill.

If you want to hang back, unleashing poison death at range, the extra 6" on weapons from obsidian rose is nails, and you counter punch with the wych/incubi. (you did take incubi, right?)

If you want to get up close and personal, the +1 PFP is good on the warriors in your raiders, backed up by Wyches and Incubi.

Is it better to have the reroll to hit or the reroll to wound?  The choice is yours.

Kabal units I would avoid:...
Voidravens
Razorwing Jetfighters
and situationally Ravagers. Seriously. If you have 2 blasters and 2 darklances in a raider shooting at 24 and 42" respectively, why take a ravager?  If they destroy the raider, you still have a dark lance and 2 blasters on obsec troops. If they destroy a ravager, you got nothing left.

Wych units I would avoid:
Beasts. The biggest disappointment in the entire codex. I mean they SUCK. they take suckiness to a new, unforseen level of suck. In fact, they suck more than that!
Hellions. Yes, yes, I know... they are as tough as jetbikes! Which leads me to...
Jetbikes.
I know this right here is where I am going to get the most kickback, but if taken rationally, 10 wyches in a raider is leaps and bounds better than jetbikes OR hellions.  Yes, jetbikes and hellions can harass flanks, etc... but we are going for total destruction potential here... not "harrassing".
If you take only 1 kabal patrol, THEN I can see fitting in 2 units of jetbikes with heat lances for anti tank help. But hellions do not make the cut.

Coven units to avoid:
All of them.

My tournament list is 2 patrols of Obsidian rose, and 1 of Cult of Strife. I have 6 raiders with splinter racks and 10 warriors in each with a dark lance and two blasters. 30" double tap range.

Oh.. and as an aside... when anyone gets a chance to reread the stratagem "Prey on the weak"
I think this is our most overlooked strat. It works on vehicles and titanic as well. Just need 1 wound!

So, sorry for the wall of text but you asked...



Had two games, both against different types of DG.  I’m in agreement with you on basically everything.  RSR is fun and and has some nice synergies but I think you’re diluting your strengths too much by cramming all three factions into one detachment.  Plus if you want to take Drazhar you either pay a brigade or CP tax.

Venoms are way too expensive.  Making them the same price as a Raider makes choosing between the two no choice at all unless you’re playing full Venom spam.

I mostly agree with you about Covens when it comes to Talos and Grots, in that those units have to be built around with your whole army to get the most out of them.  But I do differ slightly in that I think Wracks are valuable to mix into a Kabal or Cult army because the most common way to score points is to stand in a certain place on the board.  And Wracks, IMHO, are our best and most points efficient unit to do that.  And the AP -1 on their weapons makes them decent at killing chaff off objectives and taking it.  And more importantly they’re our only obsec unit that’s capable of staying on said point unless some actual effort is put into removing them.  

Haven’t played with Hellions or Reavers yet but suspect that except in certain edge cases, the most points efficient option is just taking more Wyches.  

Ravagers are still too expensive for only three shots.  In a world where Retributors, Eradicators, and Inceptors exist, that’s a little too much for something that top meta armies can pop with minimal effort.

Wyches and at least one Succubus should be in every list.  Mandatory if you’re playing competitively.

I think Mandrakes and/or Scourges with no weapon upgrades except maybe shredders are our go to positional secondary scoring units.  Planning on how you’re going to scoreScramblers, Linebreaker, Engage, etc., should be incorporated into list building and those units do it well without a CP tax.  

Just some initial observations.  Hope to have more refined and specific thoughts after more games next weekend.
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 22:10

[quote="Dalamar"]
@CptMetal wrote:


All of them?What about DT drive by shooting?

not even that just Drazhar and three five man Wrack units with 2 Liquid guns each, then outflank for 1 CP. 315pts

On foot?
Paying 2 cp's for Drazahar, as you can't take him in a battalion relspace?
I get it, they can be strong... especially 2 units in a raider that you put into reserves via stratagem. You pop up and WHAM... 4 liquifiers in the face. Nasty.

That being said, unless you go all out with coven I would rather just buy more warriors or wyches. Drazahar is not even in my list, and I think he is awesome... just I think the 70 points you spend on him over an archon is better spent on mandrakes that will guarantee you "deploy Scramblers".

10 points in the game is more valuable than Drazahar on a list. If we still had access to single court models, this would not be up for debate... Drazahar all the way.

@sweetbacon wrote:
the most common way to score points is to stand in a certain place on the board. And Wracks, IMHO, are our best and most points efficient unit to do that.

I had the same thought process. However, I hate having points standing around. I felt that warriors (especially Obsidian Rose) could hold the objective as well as shoot enemies off the board. Put them in a raider and it is even better. Long range firepower where if the transport is destroyed, obsec troops fall out and keep on shooting.
A great way to prevent them from shooting at your troops on objectives is having 6 other raiders full of wyches, incubi and warriors in their face. They really will not care what you have on the back burner when they are staring at that 6" away from them.

One of the best ways to win this game is having proper target priority. If all units are equal, you can force your opponent to prioritize units by putting them in his grill. This is another reason I shy away from ravagers. They are instant target priority for an opponent, even when they are not the biggest threat on the board.


But, I did want to say, when I said "Avoid covens" I meant in a triple patrol. Not avoid them alltogether.

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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 22:25

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@Dalamar wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:


All of them?What about DT drive by shooting?

not even that just Drazhar and three five man Wrack units with 2 Liquid guns each, then outflank for 1 CP. 315pts

On foot?
Paying 2 cp's for Drazahar, as you can't take him in a battalion relspace?
I get it, they can be strong... especially 2 units in a raider that you put into reserves via stratagem. You pop up and WHAM... 4 liquifiers in the face. Nasty.

That being said, unless you go all out with coven I would rather just buy more warriors or wyches.  Drazahar is not even in my list, and I think he is awesome... just I think the 70 points you spend on him over an archon is better spent on mandrakes that will guarantee you "deploy Scramblers".

10 points in the game is more valuable than Drazahar on a list.  If we still had access to single court models, this would not be up for debate... Drazahar all the way.

@sweetbacon wrote:
the most common way to score points is to stand in a certain place on the board.  And Wracks, IMHO, are our best and most points efficient unit to do that.

I had the same thought process. However, I hate having points standing around. I felt that warriors (especially Obsidian Rose) could hold the objective as well as shoot enemies off the board. Put them in a raider and it is even better. Long range firepower where if the transport is destroyed, obsec troops fall out and keep on shooting.
A great way to prevent them from shooting at your troops on objectives is having 6 other raiders full of wyches, incubi and warriors in their face.  They really will not care what you have on the back burner when they are staring at that 6" away from them.

One of the best ways to win this game is having proper target priority. If all units are equal, you can force your opponent to prioritize units by putting them in his grill. This is another reason I shy away from ravagers. They are instant target priority for an opponent, even when they are not the biggest threat on the board.


But, I did want to say, when I said "Avoid covens" I meant in a triple patrol. Not avoid them alltogether.
Nah, not 2 cp for Drazhar, 315pt DT Patrol, Cult patrol, OR Patrol. I will whip one up in the Army lists section.
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 05:36

Gotta love how quickly a codex that appeared more open to building multiple different types of play than any prior Dark Eldar codex became "there is one, UND EXAKTLY VANN, acceptable list".

Eh, that's fine as long as my friends don't go on these forums. They're finally getting interested in 40k again after the goddamn "I show you my gimmick list, you show me yours, whoever wins initiative wins the game" crap that was 7e scared them off of the game for years. Can't even blame them, what's the point of the entire list-building aspect of the game if there's only one right answer surrounded by traps?

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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 06:01

For the most part, I agree with Skulnbonz. However, I have some points I want to contend with, mainly around gunboat play and Ravagers.

First, on the things I agree with. If you want Covens, they must have a very specific purpose for what you're planning to use them with. I love the idea of being able to outflank with them and bring DT liquidfiers, as well as maybe some bodies to jam up the middle. However, I also see them as tax because I think other units can perform the job better, and that's killing the opponent at the center of the board with melee or being a constant threat by shooting them to death.

This means that for Kabals, I see the two contenders being Black Heart and Obsidian Rose, but I also think the 6s explode on poison and ranged shots doing AP-1 having value. I believe Goonhammer ran a math article that shows that if we're looking for ranged damage, that might be a good option. However, like my BRs have attested, the strength of lances cannot be underestimated. I also think that if you're planning to take Dissies, that Obsidian Rose might be a good take because of the re-roll wound. For the most part, I think lances win out, and while 6x10 Warriors in Raiders sounds great, I think the book has more to offer than shooting. Yes, I, out of all people is saying that. Mainly because this edition is pretty heavy on melee bodies and because Wyches die like bitches. I mean really, they really do.

I'm also in firm agreement over which Cults are best, and that's Strife and Cursed Blade. Cursed Blade gives you better Wyches, period. However, they're missing out on some of the best strategems for Cult of Strife units specifically. They are also missing out on some serious combos with Competitive Edge + Whip (which is straight beast) and Razorflails + DLT + PB. These two require the Strife keyword and the big winners from Strategems a are the: 1. No overwatch, 2. Move like Harlequins with grav-belts, 3. 4++ after killing a unit, 4. Attack twice, 5. re-roll wounds. I'm telling you, Strife is insane, and I was literally running my games with the herohammer game I've been playing and the Wyches.

Prey on the Weak is great for 1 CP, and really allows you to PUSH through damage and deliver the killing blow. For 1 CP, you're looking at a literal 50% damage increase vs. below half-strength from either shooting or CC from core units.

What I disagree with most is actually the point about Ravagers. Do I think they could be a bit cheaper? Yes. However, I think their points staying the same and Dark Lances and Black Heart offering the re-roll is a good tradeoff. One of the weaknesses that you mentioned was that they draw fire. That's a good thing, it means less shoots at Raiders carrying Wyches or Gunboats. You want them to draw fire, and you want to be able to move with them more than standing in Archon bubbles. This allow syou to play the LoS game and find and eliminate armor or anything that carries objsec troops inside. Your units are exceptional at killing softer targets so you need can openers. I don't like having dedicate the Raiders units in handling armor if I can otherwise put some AT behind it.

I can finally laugh in Dark Lance after all these years. I think they're insanely good on the platform that we can take them on and they're incredibly deadly vs. vehicles/monsters or anything without an invul. Even with an invul, with re-rolls (my current list has 17, 8 blasters as well), I was able to down Silent King like he was some punk bitch like it was nothing.

Oh, and I also agree on flyers just not being worth it. I love my Razorwings, but I think they're perm sidelined until aircraft can be good again overall. They're still worth the points, but they don't contribute to the battle as much as a gunboat or 10 Wyches.

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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 10:50

The only good.point I see on Razorwing is that they concede 1 VP with Bring it Down, where Ravagers now concede 2 VPs.

So maybe if you're going to value that, you could play 2 Razorwing instead of 2 Ravagers, helping it with Engage All Fronts turn 1.
But it's a nieche valutation. Usually 2 Ravagers are just better.
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 12:13

I kinda like how Voidraven is looking for semi-competitive play. (meaning not in tournaments, but around friends who bring hard lists). Dedicated anti-marine unit.

My Dark Angels opponent who stick lot of troops around his Azrael would probably not be so inclined to do that after that new Void Bomb. There are some things you can pull off with this model and i like to have a flyer on board to still block movement a bit.

But of course for its points you could take something better, no two ways about it.

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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 12:32

I have played with kabal/cult till now and i also agree more or less with Skulnbonz but i definitely had a different experience with ravagers. Triple lance black heart ravagers are a game changer for me to the point that i feel bad for disintegrators now and they also fill the very important role of vehicle/big threat hunters that our inccubi/whyches have trouble against. And the fact that they dont have to be babysitted by an archon anymore and can roam freely around the battlefield is huge imo
I have to agree on covens though i want to try out the DT flamer list at some point.
Also our flyers are flat out bad and for me at least decommissioned until the next edition since they do absolutely nothing except some meager shooting that can be replaced easily with something else... And dont get me started on that bomb maybe some guys have luck with it but that unreliability for 200 points is overwhelming
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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 12:40

@mynamelegend wrote:
Gotta love how quickly a codex that appeared more open to building multiple different types of play than any prior Dark Eldar codex became "there is one, UND EXAKTLY VANN, acceptable list".
** Edit- I was a bit harsh... toning down my response.

Did you skim what people were saying, or did you read it?
No one on here says "there is only one build!"
Most people are saying to optimize a competitive list, you need to steer away from realspace raids and go 3 patrols, and then went on to explain what they feel are the best patrols.

You and your friends build what you want the way you want and have a blast.. but making stuff up about what people say and adding a german accent is just wrong.

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Last edited by Skulnbonz on Wed Mar 31 2021, 13:02; edited 1 time in total

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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 12:43

@DevilDoll wrote:
And dont get me started on that bomb maybe some guys have luck with it but that unreliability for 200 points is overwhelming
That bomb was so so tempting until I realized I had to roll a 4+ to hit something with it! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 12:45

I wanted to love the new Void Raven so much. I really did. If the Void Mine could be used more than once per game that might offset its value unreliability, but as it stands it’s just too swingy to be a viable competitive choice. Hell, if it were cheaper, I might still be talked into giving it a look. But 200 points for a model that has a 50/50 chance of doing literally nothing and then dying is just a non-starter for me.

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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 13:26

Just throwing up this ravager/raider and warrior comparison.
Lets do both Obsidian Rose.

Ravager toughness: 6
Raider toughness: 6

Ravager armor saves: 4+/5++
Raider armor saves : 4+/5++

Ravager Wounds: 11
Raider wounds: 10.
Ravager has ONE more wound than a raider, but gives up twice as many "bring it down" points.  Pretty much a dead even battle so far. The ravager and raider are exactly the same durability wise except the Ravager has one single extra wound.  One.

Ravager unit wounds: 11
Raider unit wounds: 20, 10 of which are individual models.  
This is the firepower it would take to remove the entire unit from the board.  The Ravager, being a single model is susceptible to multi-wound weapons, as is the raider. The difference is when the raider drops, up to 10 individual models fall out, and they could care less about multi wound weapons.

Ravager Cost: 140
Raider unit cost: 190  50 points more than a ravager. But lets see what you get for that 50 points you do NOT get with a Ravager.
• Raider unit can advance and still shoot 2 anti tank weapons. Ravager nope.
• Raider unit can target 4 targets for anti tank weapons, and still have 7 possible double tap poison weapons for non tank units. Ravager is max 3 tank targets.
• If the raider is destroyed, the troops that fall out are obsec. Ravager is just gone.
• Troops can disembark, giving linebreaker or engage on all fronts with just that single model. Ravager is just a single model
• The Raider AND the troops inside each get a free reroll to wound. The Ravager just gets 1

The ONLY thing the ravager is better at than the raider/warriors is:
• The ravager can move and still hit with 3 weapons at 42" on a 3+.  The raider has one shot at 42" on a 3+, one on a 4+, and 2 at 24" on a 3+.

With the speed of the raider, it is VERY likely that you can hover at that exact 24" range, giving you 1 dark lance and 2 blasters hitting on 3+, with a free darklance thrown in on a 4+, but wait, there's more! Free 14 poison shots.
If you do not move, it is all 4 on a 3+, and the ravager just can't compete at that point in  my opinion.

I think overall, the biggest draw for me is that if a baneblade draws down with a volcano lance on my Ravager, it is off the table. If it does on my raider, I lose 1 shot.

Just something to think about.

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PostSubject: Re: First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex   First Impressions of 9th Edition Codex I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 31 2021, 13:49

why not both...? ^_^
Seriously though i think the trueborn raider party bus is a staple in all my lists now as well as one triple lance ravager. From there its based on preference/army composition

Edit: Btw i think the reaper is totally not worth the +30 points compared to the ravager now, i absolutely loathe variable shots

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