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 Archons - what is the best loadout?

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Oaka
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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 29 2021, 18:51

Right now I am building a list with my Archon and a group of Incubi in a Venom. Since Drazhar can only go with one, and I wanted more Incubi, this seemed like the best use of my Archon.

I've also been playing around with the thought of a few Sslyth. The only reason I don't have any, is you need more, and they are single posed models. :/ So IF I do Slyth, I'll have to convert me some.
The bottom half of a box of Melusai Blood Sisters looks good. I can use regular Kabalite torso's and with some green stuff a second pair of arms isn't a problem either. The only problem so far is I don't know what to use for a head.

Either way, I don't think making a melee-Archon and sending it in alone is the way he should be played. We have awesome Succubus builds for that, and we have Drazhar.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 08:35

Quote :
Either way, I don't think making a melee-Archon and sending it in alone is the way he should be played. We have awesome Succubus builds for that, and we have Drazhar.

No, definately not alone. At least 5 incubi bodyguards seems to be optimal retinue. More or less same targets for this unit. And at last we have that sweet rerolls of 1 for incubi.

I wonder how does Tormentors and Splintered Genius interact? Does Archon gets to fight two times before Tormented unit have its swings?

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red_head
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 10:36

@Azdrubael wrote:
I wonder how does Tormentors and Splintered Genius interact? Does Archon gets to fight two times before Tormented unit have its swings?

It triggers at the end of the fight phase. So after everything else has fought, including those that cannot interrupt or fight before anyone else due to tormentors. So the order ist: Charging units, units that are already in combat, tormentor-debuffed units, then the second activation of the Master Archon.

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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 10:38

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
Either way, I don't think making a melee-Archon and sending it in alone is the way he should be played. We have awesome Succubus builds for that, and we have Drazhar.

No, definately not alone. At least 5 incubi bodyguards seems to be optimal retinue. More or less same targets for this unit. And at last we have that sweet rerolls of 1 for incubi.

I wonder how does Tormentors and Splintered Genius interact? Does Archon gets to fight two times before Tormented unit have its swings?

Interesting point, but I don't think so. Tormentors says they fight after all other units did, (and that includes the Archon who attacked once already), and Splintered Genius says "at the end of the Fight phase". The end of the Fight phase is after all models, including the tormented unit, have fought.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 02 2021, 14:54

So I’ve been looking at the best Black Heart Archon build. I think whats becoming clear is that their really is only 1 build that enables the Archon to be good in melee...and it’s fair to say very good in melee. That’s the Eternal Hatred with Djin Blade build which I think makes the Archon a solid melee threat. I don’t think you can make a BH Archon any good in melee outside of that build.

What other sorts of builds could I go for? If not a melee build then what could be a very good tactical build? I have to honest, I don’t think there is anything that competes with the melee build in a competitive sense. Writ of the living muse is a good relic but which warlord trait would you partner it with? There are some great relic choices but some poor Warlord traits IMO.
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Oaka
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 02 2021, 15:09

I would like to try out a venom blade, writ of the living muse, ancient evil archon starting in a webway portal. The realspace raid army would have a couple units of scourges and a couple units of 10-man mandrakes. With the mandrakes fading away on turn 1, you can drop all those units down on turn 2 together and the archon will provide rerolls for quite a lot of shooting, while also being able to heroically intervene and make the countercharge fight last.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 02 2021, 15:21

@Oaka wrote:
I would like to try out a venom blade, writ of the living muse, ancient evil archon starting in a webway portal.  The realspace raid army would have a couple units of scourges and a couple units of 10-man mandrakes.  With the mandrakes fading away on turn 1, you can drop all those units down on turn 2 together and the archon will provide rerolls for quite a lot of shooting, while also being able to heroically intervene and make the countercharge fight last.

Yes that’s a good tactical build. I also like the idea of the relic making psykers perils but that’s a bit situational isn’t it.

I think perhaps the Archon im going to go with is going to be a Incubi support archon so perhaps the melee one. Shame though. Most of the warlord traits are a bit meh.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 02 2021, 17:00

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
So I’ve been looking at the best Black Heart Archon build. I think whats becoming clear is that their really is only 1 build that enables the Archon to be good in melee...and it’s fair to say very good in melee. That’s the Eternal Hatred with Djin Blade build which I think makes the Archon a solid melee threat. I don’t think you can make a BH Archon any good in melee outside of that build.

As I said before, this is my whole problem with the Archon. He's a melee character with 1 good melee build (and it requires both a specific artefact and a specific warlord trait - so it can't be replicated and leaves 0 room for customisation).


@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

What other sorts of builds could I go for? If not a melee build then what could be a very good tactical build? I have to honest, I don’t think there is anything that competes with the melee build in a competitive sense. Writ of the living muse is a good relic but which warlord trait would you partner it with?

The problem is that the Archon doesn't really have any other builds. He's in this weird situation where he's bad at melee (barring one specific build), possibly so as not to overshadow the Succubus, but has been given nothing else to do instead.

As an example, you could go for a ranged build with Parasite's Kiss or Soul Seeker. However, I think both of these suffer from the Archon's base pistol being such utter trash. So they look like a significant improvement... until you realise that you could literally make them his basic weapons and he wouldn't be remotely overpowered. The Soul Seeker is a character-sniping weapon that struggles to kill even a Platoon Commander and takes the entire length of a game to kill a SM Captain. The Parasite's Kiss, meanwhile, is a little stronger but only has a 12" range. So you're all but guaranteed to end up in melee after firing it, yet by taking it you sacrifice any possibility of your Archon being good in melee. Not to mention that you also can't make use of its regeneration ability because the gear that would make the Archon tough enough to benefit also competes for the same relic slot.

Anyway, as to the Writ, I'd probably lean towards either Ancient Evil (to give him some marginal utility when accompanying Incubi or such) or else Labyrinthine Cunning (if he's supporting a backfield unit).

I can't say I find either option particularly appealing, to be honest, which is one of the reasons I'm leaning away from the Writ in general.

Otherwise, I guess you could take the Helm of Spite and Labyrinthine Cunning and just sit around somewhere, really hoping the opponent brought a psyker. Razz


@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
There are some great relic choices but some poor Warlord traits IMO.

I think the real problem is that the Archon is too reliant on warlord traits and relics to achieve basic functionality.

I mean, look at his Master Warlord Trait - it gives a melee weapon +1D.

So if you take a Power Sword you can turn it into... an 8th edition Huskblade. Neutral

Or you could take Deathly Perfectionist, which can turn a regular Huskblade into... an 8th edition Huskblade.

Whereas, if he still had the option to take the old Huskblade, he could have roughly the same melee ability without needing to spend a Warlord Trait for the privilege.

Similarly, look at what the Archon needs artefacts for:
- Accessing the only melee weapon that's actually worth a damn (Djin Blade).
- Accessing an aura to actually make him a half-decent support character.
- Accessing every piece of defensive wargear from FNP to a better armour save to a basic 4++.
- Accessing every worthwhile ranged weapon (I'm not counting the Blast Pistol because the range is so pitiful it's basically just a single-attack melee weapon).
- Accessing every piece of utility/esoteric wargear (Helm of Spite, Animus Vitae)

It severely restricts his 'good' builds because so many of these options are either bad on their own merits or else just leave him completely non-functional. For example, taking any defensive item leaves the Archon with terrible melee ability and no additional support ability. So your Archon is better protected, yet not worth protecting.

I think he really needs to be able to take a lot of his current artefact/WT selection as basic wargear. Keep stuff like the Djin Blade and Writ as artefacts, sure, but he shouldn't need a Warlord Trait to access a D2 Venom Blade/Agoniser or a S4 Huskblade or a decent ranged weapon (with a range greater than 6").

As it stands, though, it seems like he only has 1 worthwhile build. Two if you count the Writ, though that's predicated on playing a BH army and also means you can't really take advantage of his Master ability. Plus you have the anti-synergy of a model with barely any melee ability who nevertheless wants to be buffing melee units.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 02 2021, 19:12

I’m not going to get drawn into saying the Archon is bad because I disagree with that. For the points he’s fine. I also feel as though there is maybe enough in there to make two decent Archons and more than enough to make one. I mean, the melee build makes him a nasty weapon to have!

I just feel as though I wish I could choose two relics and drop the warlord trait I guess lol
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 02 2021, 19:24

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
I’m not going to get drawn into saying the Archon is bad because I disagree with that. For the points he’s fine. I also feel as though there is maybe enough in there to make two decent Archons and more than enough to make one. I mean, the melee build makes him a nasty weapon to have!

I just feel as though I wish I could choose two relics and drop the warlord trait I guess lol

Yes. A warlord trait that would let you choose a 2nd relic would be *excellent*.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 02 2021, 21:58

I'm toying with a Master Archon with the Consummate Weaponmaster trait a venom blade and the Potent Metallotoxins stratagem as a vehicle hunter. Five attacks hitting on 2+, wounding on 2+, -1AP and D2 is...not too bad but fairly situational. If there's a vehicle that's wounded and needs to die he could get the job done but I'm not really sure it's worth it.

Other than that I'd just be tempted to keep him as a cheap buffbot, with stock equipment, labyrinthine cunning and the Writ. Just keep him near to your Incubi and/or Drazhar and let them do the heavy lifting.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 03 2021, 00:22

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm toying with a Master Archon with the Consummate Weaponmaster trait a venom blade and the Potent Metallotoxins stratagem as a vehicle hunter. Five attacks hitting on 2+, wounding on 2+, -1AP and D2 is...not too bad but fairly situational. If there's a vehicle that's wounded and needs to die he could get the job done but I'm not really sure it's worth it.

Other than that I'd just be tempted to keep him as a cheap buffbot, with stock equipment, labyrinthine cunning and the Writ. Just keep him near to your Incubi and/or Drazhar and let them do the heavy lifting.

I'll be using the Consumate Weaponmaster/Venom Blade combo this weekend. He's not a powerhouse, but there are options. Approximately 2 dead primaris per fight phase is acceptable. He'll be running with some Incubi+Drazhar who will do most of the heavy lifting in combat.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 17:55

@Soulless Samurai wrote:

As I said before, this is my whole problem with the Archon. He's a melee character with 1 good melee build (and it requires both a specific artefact and a specific warlord trait - so it can't be replicated and leaves 0 room for customisation).

That is the case for all of our HQs, on purpose.  They depend on Relics and Warlord Traits because we can so easily field them.

A Realspace Raid Battalion gets 3 WLTs for 1 CP.  You are limited to 3 HQs, anyway, so a 2nd Archon isn't possible.  Duplication is not an issue here.

A Triple Patrol starts with +2 CPs and has a maximum of 6 HQs.  That creates it's own considerations of balance.  The dependence on WLTs and Relics keeps us from fielding 6 cheap HQs with huge damage outputs.


And i'd refute the Archon being a melee character.  He can be, with the right load out.  I'm not sold on the idea that an Archon should be built out that way.  The Master Archon rules are fine in a clutch moment, but shouldn't dictate how you build.  There's always the Index Archon if you want to throw a Blaster.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 18:07

@False Son wrote:
And i'd refute the Archon being a melee character.

As they also removed his ranged options, other than the utterly pointless relic pistols, that doesn't really leave much of a niche for him does it.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 18:14

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@False Son wrote:
And i'd refute the Archon being a melee character.

As they also removed his ranged options, other than the utterly pointless relic pistols, that doesn't really leave much of a niche for him does it.

It's almost funny. If the Archon could take a Blaster as a relic, it would be pretty worthwhile and way better than any Pistol options.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 18:25

It really pisses me off that all our plastic kits are interchangeable but we can't actually use anything other than what comes on the sprue for that unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 18:36

@Count Adhemar wrote:
It really pisses me off that all our plastic kits are interchangeable but we can't actually use anything other than what comes on the sprue for that unit.

You could almost think that this was a primary design goal when GW designers revamped our range in 5th edition. OH WELL.

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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 18:40

I’d much rather make Drazhar my WL and use Hatred Eternal on him and his fight twice every turn ability rather than on a Str 4 Archon who can only do it once per game and is wounding everything on 4/5’s at best. An Archon, if I take one is there to unlock a Court of the Archon, or to use Ancient Evil for an additional fight last ability. We have way better beatstick characters in the Succubus and Drazhar.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 06 2021, 19:47

@False Son wrote:

That is the case for all of our HQs, on purpose.  They depend on Relics and Warlord Traits because we can so easily field them.

So the bad design is intentional? Awsome, that makes it so much better. Neutral


@False Son wrote:

A Realspace Raid Battalion gets 3 WLTs for 1 CP.  You are limited to 3 HQs, anyway, so a 2nd Archon isn't possible.  Duplication is not an issue here.

But this is a contradictory argument. Why on earth does the Archon need to be so rigidly held in check by an excessive overreliance on artefacts and warlord traits when (as you yourself admit) it's literally impossible to spam them in a RSR detachment?


@False Son wrote:

A Triple Patrol starts with +2 CPs and has a maximum of 6 HQs.  That creates it's own considerations of balance.  The dependence on WLTs and Relics keeps us from fielding 6 cheap HQs with huge damage outputs.

Okay, let's assume for a moment that this is true. Why doesn't it apply to Succubi? Why do they get to escape the severe reliance on relics and warlord traits? Instead, they can be good even without such, and can use them to specialise in a particular area (or even just for flavour). You know, the thing every other army gets to use relics and warlord traits for.

Also, please explain to me why an Archon with a S4 Huskblade - not the Djin Blade, just a S4 Huskblade - would have such unparalleled damage output that you'd spam them if you possibly could?

Because this is what they were like last edition and yet they were still viewed as a severe tax.

@False Son wrote:

And i'd refute the Archon being a melee character.  

I suppose if you're going by what he excels at by default, you could argue he's a nothing-character. Wink


@False Son wrote:
He can be, with the right load out.  I'm not sold on the idea that an Archon should be built out that way.

I mean, I'd love to be able to build him other ways. As I've said before, I'd love to have options for a more strategic/manipulative Archon or a shootier Archon. Sadly, that particular memo never reached GW because the Archon's shooting is basically nonexistant (even with Relics), and he has no strategic or manipulative abilities to speak of.


@False Son wrote:
 The Master Archon rules are fine in a clutch moment, but shouldn't dictate how you build.

It does, however, give you a clear indication that, whatever your own views, GW clearly thinks of the Archon as a melee character. Not a ranged one and not a strategic one.

Further, it's not that you choose melee for the Archon - as above, you're basically forced into melee because other options are either utterly pathetic (fear my sniper pistol that struggles to kill a Platoon Commander!) or else entirely absent.


@False Son wrote:
 There's always the Index Archon if you want to throw a Blaster.

I think it should tell you something that in order to try and find a non-melee build for the Archon, you're having to look back to options that haven't been in the codex for 2 editions now. tongue

If we're looking back to options from past books, I'd quite like the option to take Ghostplate, Clone Fields, Combat Drugs etc. on my Archon as well.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 08:00

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@False Son wrote:

That is the case for all of our HQs, on purpose.  They depend on Relics and Warlord Traits because we can so easily field them.

So the bad design is intentional? Awsome, that makes it so much better. Neutral


[


Bad design? It is fully background. Even in 8th Codex if you read the Archon's fluff you'll see that when it comes at war, he go in his personal relic's chamber, choosing the most rare and cruel weapons he have.

Both Archons, Succubus and Haemonculus are full of pride. All of them wants to makes their name, they WANT to be unique.
In game, the best way to show it is to push players to build their HQs all with relics and traits.

C'mon, as an Archon in Commorragh, do you really want to show yourself with no relics?

If you see this as a "bad design", I'm sorry but I think you're not Dark Eldar at all my friend :-/
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 14:34

@Cerve wrote:


Bad design? It is fully background. Even in 8th Codex if you read the Archon's fluff you'll see that when it comes at war, he go in his personal relic's chamber, choosing the most rare and cruel weapons he have.

Both Archons, Succubus and Haemonculus are full of pride. All of them wants to makes their name, they WANT to be unique.
In game, the best way to show it is to push players to build their HQs all with relics and traits.

C'mon, as an Archon in Commorragh, do you really want to show yourself with no relics?

If you see this as a "bad design", I'm sorry but I think you're not Dark Eldar at all my friend :-/

They really should have given us more relics to choose from though. It's not like there wasn't room in the codex for more than 6 generic ones.

It also wouldn't have killed them to not have nerfed the huskblade, especially since it's a more expensive option than the other archon weapons.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 16:52

@Cerve wrote:

Bad design? It is fully background.

No it isn't.


@Cerve wrote:
Even in 8th Codex if you read the Archon's fluff you'll see that when it comes at war, he go in his personal relic's chamber, choosing the most rare and cruel weapons he have.

From the 8th edition book:

"Before going into battle, An Archon will visit their weapon museum, savouring the process of selection as they choose between the most arcane and lethal of all the technologies of Commorragh."

Nowhere does this statement say that the technologies the Archon has access to are all one-of-a-kind. If anything, it strongly implies the opposite. I mean, if each Archon has a literal museum of weapons and technologies, then I think it's safe to assume we're talking about stuff that isn't one-of-a-kind.

That or every Archon is basically using the exact same museum. And looking at the artefacts in the codex, this "museum" apparently contains all of 4 items. Neutral

Also, lol at "lethal". Because apparently a Power Sword is the most lethal technology on Commorragh. Laughing

Moreover, even if you go with the massive leap of logic required to interpret this to mean "artefacts", surely it also indicates that Archons each have a great variety of Artefacts at their disposal - far more than the standard 1-per-character?

I mean, I can understand that an Archon might struggle to wield several different artefact blades... oh wait, only one artefact blade exists in the whole of Commorragh. That minor detail aside, what exactly prevents an Archon wielding an artefact blade along with the Armour of Darkness or Soulhelm or Parasite's Kiss, for example?

So either their "artefacts" should be primarily represented by wargear (just give them stuff that isn't available to Sybarites and such) or else they should be able to take more than the standard 1 artefact each.

Continuing:

"Some Archons choose a different array of armaments for each engagement, indulging at the variety at their disposal."

Are you even going to pretend that the underlined part is well-represented?

Also, the book mentions Soul Traps, which aren't available as wargear *or* artefacts.


@Cerve wrote:

C'mon, as an Archon in Commorragh, do you really want to show yourself with no relics?

Oh joy of all joys, we're back to this massive strawman.

Good to see I'm still being attacked for an argument I've never once made. Rolling Eyes

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harlokin
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 07 2021, 18:05

@Cerve wrote:


Both Archons, Succubus and Haemonculus are full of pride. All of them wants to makes their name, they WANT to be unique.
In game, the best way to show it is to push players to build their HQs all with relics and traits.

C'mon, as an Archon in Commorragh, do you really want to show yourself with no relics?

If you see this as a "bad design", I'm sorry but I think you're not Dark Eldar at all my friend :-/

Yes bad design.

Archons can currently show how "unique" they are by using their ONE good combination of Warlord Trait and Relic.

You can see good design in the Succubus, which is spoilt for choice in Traits, Relics, and general loadout.

So pretty please....my friend...cram your 'no true Scotsman fallacy' nonsense.

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 08 2021, 03:56

@Count Adhemar wrote:
It really pisses me off that all our plastic kits are interchangeable but we can't actually use anything other than what comes on the sprue for that unit.

The strange thing is that Succubus are still able to take Wych Weapons that come on the Wych sprue.  The Plastic Succubus was also designed to have all the Wych Weapons fit perfectly.


@Soulless Samurai wrote:

So the bad design is intentional? Awsome, that makes it so much better. Neutral

Of course it is intentional.  Realspace Raid was a big, fat mistake.


Quote :

But this is a contradictory argument. Why on earth does the Archon need to be so rigidly held in check by an excessive overreliance on artefacts and warlord traits when (as you yourself admit) it's literally impossible to spam them in a RSR detachment?

Because the same unit, the Archon has to work in both the Realspace Raid detachment and triple patrol.  If the Archon wasn't reliant on Relics and WLTs they could be spammed in triple patrol.


Quote :

Okay, let's assume for a moment that this is true. Why doesn't it apply to Succubi? Why do they get to escape the severe reliance on relics and warlord traits? Instead, they can be good even without such, and can use them to specialise in a particular area (or even just for flavour). You know, the thing every other army gets to use relics and warlord traits for.

Also, please explain to me why an Archon with a S4 Huskblade - not the Djin Blade, just a S4 Huskblade - would have such unparalleled damage output that you'd spam them if you possibly could?

Because this is what they were like last edition and yet they were still viewed as a severe tax.

Archons have more potential roles than Succubus.  The Overlord aura works on shooting, melee, and on Incubi, whereas the Succubus Brides of Death only works on Cult melee.  Overlord can also be upgraded by the Realspace Raid to effect the whole army.  The Succubus doesn't have the survivability of the Archon, can't be the army Warlord in a Realspace Raid.  The Succubus must be a melee beatstick.

Even so, Succubus do rely on WLTs and Relics, maybe even moreso than Archons, who can get away with never actually taking a swing.  A Succubus limited to even one WLT or one Relic has a serious case of FOMO when it comes to damage potential.

Agreed on the Huskblade, though.  Not sure why that, and so many other weapons got nerfed.  I suspect it has to do with this overriding insistence that all wargear is either 0 points, or an increment of 5 points.  A S+1 Huskblade is a little too good for 5 points, but not strong enough for 10 points.  They nerfed instead of buffing for a higher cost.  Just strange that Huskblades have gone from potent fragments of death to unimpressive badges of rank.  The reason Archons don't have something like a Relic Blade or Master Crafted Power Sword, that is good, but not a Relic, i think, goes back to a combination of the 0/5/10 mindset, and wanting to limit the value of multiple Archons.

There is something to a Poison Tongue Master Archon with Agonizer, Weapon Master and Soul Seeker.  That's a nice mix of shooting and melee, even though it does feel forced.

Quote :

I suppose if you're going by what he excels at by default, you could argue he's a nothing-character. Wink

I think the Archon's strength is in acting as the army Warlord.  Outside of being a Black Heart Realspace Raid leader with Writ of the Living Muse, there's real value in an Archon being the army Warlord and being hard to kill.  Soulhelm and Ancient Evil cover a lot of bases.  Even if he hovers around a bunch of Kabal units for rerolling 1s in shooting, he can Heroic intervention into a charging enemy, force them to fight last and provide rerolls to the Kabal units in melee.  Depending on your Kabal and Sybarite setup you can take a piece out of the enemy before they get a chance to swing.  

Quote :

I mean, I'd love to be able to build him other ways. As I've said before, I'd love to have options for a more strategic/manipulative Archon or a shootier Archon. Sadly, that particular memo never reached GW because the Archon's shooting is basically nonexistant (even with Relics), and he has no strategic or manipulative abilities to speak of.

I agree on the different builds.  Losing the Blaster option was harsh, as it was something quirky for DE, whereas most HQs in most armies are just sword swingers.  As i mentioned with the Succubus, it is strange that we have such uneven takes on weapon options being limited to the kits themselves.


Quote :
 T
It does, however, give you a clear indication that, whatever your own views, GW clearly thinks of the Archon as a melee character. Not a ranged one and not a strategic one.

Further, it's not that you choose melee for the Archon - as above, you're basically forced into melee because other options are either utterly pathetic (fear my sniper pistol that struggles to kill a Platoon Commander!) or else entirely absent.

If Master Archon existed in a vacuum, sure.  Most people are going to take it to get access to the Trueborn upgrade.  And, it isn't like you have to maximize melee just because you took the Master Archon upgrade.  Going for survivability with Soulhelm, or Weapon Master with say, Obsidian Rose Obsession, or Flayed Skull WLT.  I think you could even make a case for a utility Archon with Ancient Evil, Helm of Spite and the Master Archon upgrade just giving that extra bump should you find yourself in melee.

Quote :

I think it should tell you something that in order to try and find a non-melee build for the Archon, you're having to look back to options that haven't been in the codex for 2 editions now. tongue

If we're looking back to options from past books, I'd quite like the option to take Ghostplate, Clone Fields, Combat Drugs etc. on my Archon as well.

I'd like all of that back, as well.  I'd also consider Shredder Scourges from the Index, if that was legal.  I'm not saying GW's conclusions are right.  I'm giving some rationale as to how they came to the conclusions.  I lay the majority of the blame at the feat of Realspace Raid forcing Archons to be the army Warlord, as well as all three HQs and their Troops becoming a tax.  The real reason to take Realspace Raid isn't to give rerolls of 1s to Wyches or Wracks.  It is to pull in the Blades for Hire.  Realspace Raid exists at a specific points level, as it has to be large enough to form a Battalion with enough points to meet the minimum HQ and Troop requirements.  Basically, a meme idea that has infected the entire Codex.
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PostSubject: Re: Archons - what is the best loadout?   Archons - what is the best loadout? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 08 2021, 07:30

You know...after Skari and Nanavati, I am thinking about Animus Vitae.
If you run a Raid with BH, full of Incubi and 1xCourt (4Sslyths+4Urghuls as Nanavati explained in his 12 min youtube video), one of the builds for the Archon is simply VenomBlade+AncientEvil. So it's relic free.
In this scenario, because you wll charge on turn 2 (usually), throw the Animus shouldn't be a problem. Then you will have all your Incubi and Courts with +2 on PfP on T2, which means having 5++ on T2 already. Courts is super tanky with 5++/5+++ and 3 wounds, while Incubi with 5++ since T2 are nasty too. And the rest of the Raid will hit on 2+ on T2 too, for an exploding Turn2 for us. Think about Grotesques hitting on 2+, DC Talos hitting on 2+ with their Gauntlets (which is amazing), standard Wyches hitting on 2+, all the army immune to any -1 to hit on melee (Sanguinary Guards, DG etc).

The timing here is seducing me...that Archon would already been without relics so buying him the Animus would not be bad. Hitting on 2+, rerolling 1s and no need to do casualties for his effect. Just throw it and you have global +1 PfP.

It is a super force multiplier if you think about it.
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