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Soulless Samurai
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 25 2021, 09:51

What do we think the best options are for drugs on our Cult units?

Succubus I think depends on loadout so I'll leave that for the moment.

I'm strongly leaning towards +1S for Wyches. They already have a ton of attacks and even +1T doesn't feel like it's going to make them survivable so I think the +1S is possibly the best option to help them kill what they hit.

Reavers to an extent depends on what you want them to do. +1BS and Ld isn't a bad option if you want them to shoot stuff, +1T makes them T5 which is a big shift in survivability. I think every drug is an option for them (which is nice).

Hellions? Similar to Reavers?

What do you guys think?


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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 25 2021, 10:42

I'd agree with +1S on most Wyches, though I'm not sure for Cursed Blade. Is their inherent +1S already enough, or is it better to bring them to S5?

For Reavers, I'll definitely be taking BS2+ Heat Lances (though Advancing and still shooting Blasters on BS3+ is also nice).

For Hellions, +1A with Cursed Blade, otherwise I'm torn between extra attacks and extra strength.

A part of me wants a M10 Succubus for the sheer hell of it but that's definitely not a tactical decision. Razz

As you can probably tell, though, I'm leaning far into the offensive side of things. Each to their own but I'm not convinced its worth improving the toughness on Reavers or Hellions. It might make them a little harder to kill but not enough to make a substantial difference IMO. I think we really need to lean hard into the 'kill our enemies before they can kill us' approach.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 25 2021, 11:07

+1 Strenght for Wyches, i think. In most cases thats best think to have. Unless you are facing mostly T5 opposition (grav armor). In that case +1 atacks. If you cant modify lists before game, then +1 Strenght, against majority of lists thats better.

Succubus, well, that girl will have that Tryptich Whip, so more of those high quality atacks seems in order. +1 Attack.

Reavers - choice between +1 BS or +1 T. I really like that new Heatlance, so maybe 2+ BS is great.

Hellions - toughness 5 all the way. Especially if you have 15+ of them in one unit.They are basically our new ork boyz unit in the codex, only fast. We need them tough, to keep fighting and cause havoc. Under Cult of Strife they will have 4++ after each unit killed for 1 CP.

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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 25 2021, 11:43

Wyches: Simple rule of thumb? Any time +1S would improve your wound roll, you're better off taking that than another attack. Look at the enemy side of the table and make the call.
Quick napkin math here, assuming 10 wyches, no special weapons, fighting Marines...
Baseline: 5.3 wounds.
+1 Attack: 6.6 wounds.
+1 Strength: 7.6 wounds.
Cursed Blade +1 Attack: 9.44 wounds.
Cursed Blade +1 Strength: 9.86 wounds.
Cursed Blade rolling for drugs and scoring both +1S and +1A like an absolute madlad: 12.27 wounds.

Hellions: Offensively, +1 Attack is generally the way to go here due to their lower number of natural attacks. You can also go +1T to make 'em T5 and bump up their durability a chunk, especially if you're bringing Cursed Blade so you're already a Murder Chad. But setting the Toughness question aside in favor of just "what's the mathematically correct choice for Murdering More Stuff", let's run the napkin math again. 10 Hellions, no specials, vs Marines.
Baseline: 11.5 wounds.
+1 Attack: 15.2 wounds.
+1 Strength: 14.9 wounds.
Cursed Blade +1 Attack: 19.74 wounds.
Obviously Cursed Blade +1 Strength has the same result as +1 Strength in this particular case, but generally speaking the rule remains the same: +1A is better than +1S.

Reavers: Honestly you're probably not taking these for their melee damage. +1 BS is the way to go here, with Blasters or Heat Lances alike. If you plan to run your reavers lean and charge into something artillery-shaped and keep it from shooting, +1 T is the obvious pick to keep them alive longer.

Succubi: You're probably taking some Triptych Whip or Razorflail Precision Blow blender or a Blood Glaive monster, so +1 Attack is almost always the correct option. Rarely, you'll be faced with a build like a Cursed Blade Impaler+Shardnet Suicide Bomber, in which case +1S will be best against any target where that means +1 to wound rolls.

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harlokin
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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 25 2021, 11:46

Really helpful stuff, thanks.

What are the thoughts on rolling as opposed to picking?

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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 25 2021, 11:53

Since Reavers now basically benefit from any drug, I might try rolling 2 drugs for them. At least interesting to experiment with.
Other units I won't roll for though.
Wyches will either get +1S or +1A, but I need to math-hammer on that a bit. Partially because I'm not entirely sure yet if I'm going Strife or Cursed Blade with them.
I will definitely use a Succubus with Triptych Whip, and with that bucketload of attacks she'll mostly benefit from +1S I think.
Hellions will get +1A. They already have S4 even without Cursed Blade, so I'll just force my opponent to make a crapload of saves for that delicious D2. I have 10 Hellions at the moment, so that would be 41 attacks at S4, AP -1 and D2. And the AP will be even higher on some rolls because of Blade Artists
I can't wait to see what that does to my friends giant blob of deamons. Razz

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Last edited by Gelmir on Thu Mar 25 2021, 12:05; edited 1 time in total

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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 25 2021, 11:55

@harlokin wrote:
Really helpful stuff, thanks.

What are the thoughts on rolling as opposed to picking?

Personally, I follow a helpful mnemonic device: DON'T.

Don't roll
Only pick
Never roll
True drukhari players pick their drugs instead of rolling.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 25 2021, 11:58

@harlokin wrote:
Really helpful stuff, thanks.

What are the thoughts on rolling as opposed to picking?

I'm contemplating this more and more. I think Wyches absolutely need either +1S, +1A or +1T and I wouldn't roll there. Similarly, the Succubus has a good chance of getting +1BS or +1WS, so no rolling there.

But Hellions, Reavers and Beastmasters? The only combination in which rolling isn't better is when rolling double on +1BS or +1WS.

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Pippolele
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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 25 2021, 12:48

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@harlokin wrote:
Really helpful stuff, thanks.

What are the thoughts on rolling as opposed to picking?

I'm contemplating this more and more. I think Wyches absolutely need either +1S, +1A or +1T and I wouldn't roll there. Similarly, the Succubus has a good chance of getting +1BS or +1WS, so no rolling there.

But Hellions, Reavers and Beastmasters? The only combination in which rolling isn't better is when rolling double on +1BS or +1WS.

What happens with doubles? Re-rolled? ignored? Double effect?
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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 25 2021, 13:33

@Pippolele wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@harlokin wrote:
Really helpful stuff, thanks.

What are the thoughts on rolling as opposed to picking?

I'm contemplating this more and more. I think Wyches absolutely need either +1S, +1A or +1T and I wouldn't roll there. Similarly, the Succubus has a good chance of getting +1BS or +1WS, so no rolling there.

But Hellions, Reavers and Beastmasters? The only combination in which rolling isn't better is when rolling double on +1BS or +1WS.

What happens with doubles? Re-rolled? ignored? Double effect?
I think that means you just get double effect.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 25 2021, 14:12

On doubles, you simply re-roll both dice until you get two different results.
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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 25 2021, 16:22

I'll be taking +1S on wyches, +1A on the succubus and probably rolling twice for Reavers and Hellions. Maybe there will be some clear answers that make me not want to roll depending on matchup, but I'll probably start by rolling.
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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 29 2021, 15:07

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
I'd agree with +1S on most Wyches, though I'm not sure for Cursed Blade. Is their inherent +1S already enough, or is it better to bring them to S5?

For Reavers, I'll definitely be taking BS2+ Heat Lances (though Advancing and still shooting Blasters on BS3+ is also nice).

For Hellions, +1A with Cursed Blade, otherwise I'm torn between extra attacks and extra strength.

A part of me wants a M10 Succubus for the sheer hell of it but that's definitely not a tactical decision. Razz

As you can probably tell, though, I'm leaning far into the offensive side of things. Each to their own but I'm not convinced its worth improving the toughness on Reavers or Hellions. It might make them a little harder to kill but not enough to make a substantial difference IMO. I think we really need to lean hard into the 'kill our enemies before they can kill us' approach.

After testing it out in my games this weekend, I think the +1Str and Cursed Blade are amazing. Wounding the majority of infantry on, at worst, 4+ makes Wyches a threat to everything, even Gravis armor and vehicles now. The volume of attacks, -1AP base, Blade Artists, and extra AP and dmg of some of the Wych weapons turns them into absolute blenders. They still die like Wyches but they now kill a lot of stuff before they do. And bouncing a few mortal wounds back to enemy units who hit them in melee is great. Over the course of my game yesterday, I did around 10-12 mortal wounds with my saving throws. That’s found money basically. It’s like a few free Smites per game just for rolling your saves.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 29 2021, 15:38

@sweetbacon wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
I'd agree with +1S on most Wyches, though I'm not sure for Cursed Blade. Is their inherent +1S already enough, or is it better to bring them to S5?

For Reavers, I'll definitely be taking BS2+ Heat Lances (though Advancing and still shooting Blasters on BS3+ is also nice).

For Hellions, +1A with Cursed Blade, otherwise I'm torn between extra attacks and extra strength.

A part of me wants a M10 Succubus for the sheer hell of it but that's definitely not a tactical decision. Razz

As you can probably tell, though, I'm leaning far into the offensive side of things. Each to their own but I'm not convinced its worth improving the toughness on Reavers or Hellions. It might make them a little harder to kill but not enough to make a substantial difference IMO. I think we really need to lean hard into the 'kill our enemies before they can kill us' approach.

After testing it out in my games this weekend, I think the +1Str and Cursed Blade are amazing.  Wounding the majority of infantry on, at worst, 4+ makes Wyches a threat to everything, even Gravis armor and vehicles now.  The volume of attacks, -1AP base, Blade Artists, and extra AP and dmg of some of the Wych weapons turns them into absolute blenders.  They still die like Wyches but they now kill a lot of stuff before they do.  And bouncing a few mortal wounds back  to enemy units who hit them in melee is great.  Over the course of my game yesterday, I did around 10-12 mortal wounds with my saving throws.  That’s found money basically.  It’s like a few free Smites per game just for rolling your saves.  

Oh, that's awsome to know. Thank you for the input. +1S it is then.  Smile

Interesting to hear that the Mortal Wounds from 6s on armour saves worked well, too.

I wonder if it would be worth taking the trait on a Succubus that lets them inflict a mortal wound to the enemy that attacked them whenever they succeed a save?

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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 29 2021, 15:53

I think it’s worth running on as a troll job if you’re taking more than one Succubus. One melee blender Succubus is mandatory for every list. Every. List. But after that, I think a second one who is basically a kamikaze suicide Succubus would be fun as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 29 2021, 15:53

Rules question about picking drugs. If you roll for them do you then have to roll for every unit or can you pick some and roll for some?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 29 2021, 16:10

It's on a unit by unit basis so you can roll for some and pick others.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 29 2021, 16:21

@sweetbacon wrote:
I think it’s worth running on as a troll job if you’re taking more than one Succubus.  One melee blender Succubus is mandatory for every list.  Every.  List.  But after that, I think a second one who is basically a kamikaze suicide Succubus would be fun as well.  

I have to say, whilst there are definitely some irritations in the new book, I really do love the Succubus.

Whilst I'm sure some loadouts are better than others, it feels like they have very few actually bad choices.

All their relic weapons are good. Hell, even Parasite's Kiss is probably workable.

I like that you can make a Cursed Blade 'suicide' build without feeling that you're sacrificing all your actual melee potential to do so.

And, more on topic, I like that you can make a 'druggie' build, who potentially starts the game with 4 different drugs in effect and then gets another one each turn. Is it the strongest build? Almost certainly not. Do I want to run it anyway? Hell yes. Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 29 2021, 17:25

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@sweetbacon wrote:
I think it’s worth running on as a troll job if you’re taking more than one Succubus.  One melee blender Succubus is mandatory for every list.  Every.  List.  But after that, I think a second one who is basically a kamikaze suicide Succubus would be fun as well.  

I have to say, whilst there are definitely some irritations in the new book, I really do love the Succubus.

Whilst I'm sure some loadouts are better than others, it feels like they have very few actually bad choices.

All their relic weapons are good. Hell, even Parasite's Kiss is probably workable.

I like that you can make a Cursed Blade 'suicide' build without feeling that you're sacrificing all your actual melee potential to do so.

And, more on topic, I like that you can make a 'druggie' build, who potentially starts the game with 4 different drugs in effect and then gets another one each turn. Is it the strongest build? Almost certainly not. Do I want to run it anyway? Hell yes. Laughing

One of my favorite things about the book is the sheer number of different builds you can create for a Succubus and to a lesser extent a Haemonculous (sucks to be you Archon, as you’re a reroll 1’s and fight last ability caddy and that’s pretty much it*sad trombone*).

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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 01 2021, 00:35

I ran the math for 10 Wyches against Primaris and found that stock Wyches do more damage with +1S than +1A, but with the max upgraded weapons +1A is better. And the +1A with upgrades will, on average, wipe a unit of Primaris, while the stock ladies will leave 1-2 Primaris alive. I’m going with the upgrades and +1A because I want to wipe the enemy unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 01 2021, 21:30

I’m thinking of going cursed blade for the +1 strength which is near enough covers the best drug buff to give most wyche units and then I can roll the dice for 2 drugs for every unit. If I get lucky with an extra attack on the rolls then boom I’ve hit the jackpot.

I’m really interested to see how Reavers do because I’d argue there isn’t a bad drug for them so rolling twice is ideal where as a wych squad really do need that +1 strength. Cursed Blade guarantee that so I can have fun rolling for two more!

Strife have cool strats mind...hmm.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 01 2021, 21:44

I agree. Cursed Blade would be my preference in fact if it weren't for the CoS strats.

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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 02 2021, 06:41

I think I will try 3 Patrols: Strife-Cursed-DarkCreed.

I read that the Master-promotions is locked onto: 1) 1x Detatchment; 2) 1x Obsession.
Not 1x army.

So I guess I can take double MasterSuccubus in this way, and double Bloodbrides as well. Red hair and blue hair incoming!
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Choice of combat drug   Choice of combat drug I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 02 2021, 09:55

@Cerve wrote:
I think I will try 3 Patrols: Strife-Cursed-DarkCreed.

I read that the Master-promotions is locked onto: 1) 1x Detatchment; 2) 1x Obsession.
Not 1x army.

So I guess I can take double MasterSuccubus in this way, and double Bloodbrides as well. Red hair and blue hair incoming!

Yeah that’s how I read it as well. One master per obsession. So you could have a Master of Strife and a Master of Cursed Blade.

I still feel as though they needed to do more with the Heamy. Why can’t he heal everyone? An Apothecary can. I feel as though this was an opportunity missed for showing a clear benefit for mixing up the army.

As standard the Heamy baseline is completely useless to me. Once he’s been upgraded he can help a unit of wracks...great. The best thing I can do is use Dark Creed and use him tactically but by then I’ve pumped 200 points into a Heamy and small Wrack squad and spent CP on his warlord traits etc.

I just feel as though 200 points could get me better tactical units like Mandrakes or Scourge...both even. Or I could have Draz! Yes I will have Draz mwah ha ha ha!
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