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  how much does a venon really cost?

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amishprn86
Stolensoul
Karr4x
Count Adhemar
mynamelegend
DevilDoll
CptMetal
Soulless Samurai
fisheyes
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velaresh
Hellion
velaresh

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PostSubject: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 23 2021, 12:51

The cost of the venon is 65 + 10 + 10 for two crystalline cannons Or is the first cannon free?
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 23 2021, 14:50

85.

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fisheyes
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 23 2021, 19:10

Venoms have really changed roles with the new codex. More of a long range fire support unit than a close range transport.

Of course you could continue running it like you always did, but I think you miss out on that D2 splinter canon your forced to take.

Yes you have to pay for the first S Canon. Your correct, 85 for two
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 23 2021, 23:25

Venoms are now only troop transports, under dark creed, for Incubi, where the -3 will be most effective. They are also overwatch sponges, so there is that.
Keep em cheap if this is what you are going to do, don't upgrade that cannon!

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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 25 2021, 17:08

I was under the impression that the gear named under "This model is equipped with" were the things that are included in the price, and only the upgrades under "wargear options" cost points. As far as I can see, most of the army is that way. Apparently that's not the case? :S

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 25 2021, 17:49

@fisheyes wrote:
Venoms have really changed roles with the new codex. More of a long range fire support unit than a close range transport.

Of course you could continue running it like you always did, but I think you miss out on that D2 splinter canon your forced to take.

See, I think this is the issue with making Splinter Cannons Heavy instead of Rapid Fire.

We now have a transport built as a long-range fire support unit. Awsome.

Now who wants to ride in a Venom?
- Kabalites
- Archons
- Court of the Archon
- Incubi
- Drazhar
- Wyches
- Succubi

Of those, who wants to stay 36" from the enemy?
Sound of crickets chirping.

It's not a massive issue but it is a bit weird that Venoms are built to stay as far from the enemy as possible, yet almost everything they transport wants to get right up in the enemy's face (or at least into rapid-fire range). Razz

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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 25 2021, 17:51

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:
Venoms have really changed roles with the new codex. More of a long range fire support unit than a close range transport.

Of course you could continue running it like you always did, but I think you miss out on that D2 splinter canon your forced to take.

See, I think this is the issue with making Splinter Cannons Heavy instead of Rapid Fire.

We now have a transport built as a long-range fire support unit. Awsome.

Now who wants to ride in a Venom?
- Kabalites
- Archons
- Court of the Archon
- Incubi
- Drazhar
- Wyches
- Succubi

Of those, who wants to stay 36" from the enemy?
Sound of crickets chirping.

It's not a massive issue but it is a bit weird that Venoms are built to stay as far from the enemy as possible, yet almost everything they transport wants to get right up in the enemy's face (or at least into rapid-fire range). Razz

Solid point.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 26 2021, 11:04

You don't need to get that close with advance and change for the occupying infantry.
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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 27 2021, 14:53

@Gelmir wrote:
I was under the impression that the gear named under "This model is equipped with" were the things that are included in the price, and only the upgrades under "wargear options" cost points. As far as I can see, most of the army is that way. Apparently that's not the case? :S

That's exactly my understanding as well..
Can someone please explain why you have to pay for the first one since its included in the profile?
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 27 2021, 16:16

@DevilDoll wrote:
That's exactly my understanding as well..
Can someone please explain why you have to pay for the first one since its included in the profile?
The wording under "points values" is as follows...

The Codex wrote:
You must then add points for each weapon, or other item of wargear, that is included in that unit if it is listed in that unit's entry (weapons and other wargear not listed in a unit's entry cost no additional points to include in that unit")

The Venom has "Splinter cannon +10 pts" under its listing, therefore you have to pay for all instances of Splinter Cannons.
By comparison, for example, the Raider does not list its Dark Lance anywhere under the list of point costs, so the Raider doesn't have to pay for its built-in Dark Lance. (And in return, replacing it with a Disintegrator cannon only costs 5 points)

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 27 2021, 16:52

@mynamelegend wrote:
@DevilDoll wrote:
That's exactly my understanding as well..
Can someone please explain why you have to pay for the first one since its included in the profile?
The wording under "points values" is as follows...

The Codex wrote:
You must then add points for each weapon, or other item of wargear, that is included in that unit if it is listed in that unit's entry (weapons and other wargear not listed in a unit's entry cost no additional points to include in that unit")

The Venom has "Splinter cannon +10 pts" under its listing, therefore you have to pay for all instances of Splinter Cannons.
By comparison, for example, the Raider does not list its Dark Lance anywhere under the list of point costs, so the Raider doesn't have to pay for its built-in Dark Lance. (And in return, replacing it with a Disintegrator cannon only costs 5 points)

Aha ok it think its kinda clear now...man sometimes i think they are actively trying to make the rules more confusing than they need to be...
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 27 2021, 17:20

Right? Some consistency wouldn't kill them.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 27 2021, 19:16

This debate is raging on the FB group and someone has got screenshots of one of the GW customer service peeps saying it's 75 points and specifying that you don't pay for wargear that "this model is equipped with...".

Personally I think it is 85 points under the current codex but that it should be 75 just because it can't really compete with the Raider at the same price point.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 28 2021, 00:08

I'm inclined to think that it is 75 points because it seems like every other model in the codex has its starting weapons built into its base cost, and I don't see why the venom would be different in that regard. I think that we're too used to adding up the points in 8th edition, so we are assuming that the 9th edition codices are set up the same way, but I don't think that's a safe assumption.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 28 2021, 00:27

I think the confusion is due to the fact that the Venom is the only model, AFAIK, that has an option to take another of the same type of weapon that it is already equipped with. That makes it impossible to draw comparisons with other units, which many people seem to be doing as proof of whichever side of the argument they fall on.

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 how much does a venon really cost? YhBv3Wk
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 28 2021, 13:12

The archon comes equiped with a huskblade, right?
the huskblade costs 5 points
he cant take 2
so.....
if it was free, it would have no cost attached.
Venoms are 85

there you go.

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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 28 2021, 14:40

@Skulnbonz wrote:
The archon comes equiped with a huskblade, right?
the huskblade costs 5 points
he cant take 2
so.....
if it was free, it would have no cost attached.
Venoms are 85

there you go.

Actually, that's wrong. It's standard equipped with a Power Sword, and you can upgrade it to an optional Huskblade for +5 points.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 28 2021, 20:14

still must have last edition on the brain

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Karr4x
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 29 2021, 23:25

Yeah whenever an equipment is listed, you have to pay for it.
As another proof for that, the official WH40K Battleforge app lists Venoms at 75 points base and 85 points with the double splinter cannon option.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 29 2021, 23:31

@Karr4x wrote:
Yeah whenever an equipment is listed, you have to pay for it.
As another proof for that, the official WH40K Battleforge app lists Venoms at 75 points base and 85 points with the double splinter cannon option.

GW is going to need to address it in a FAQ either way, because no one entirely trusts the app to be correct. It's weird because the venom is the *only* unit in the entire codex with an option to buy stuff that the unit is already equipped with. Every other unit has their starting wargear built into the base cost.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 29 2021, 23:40

@Karr4x wrote:
Yeah whenever an equipment is listed, you have to pay for it.
As another proof for that, the official WH40K Battleforge app lists Venoms at 75 points base and 85 points with the double splinter cannon option.

And then, just to shoot themselves in the foot a bit more, they put this up on WC:

 how much does a venon really cost? 21l2cfyLMjvEsquU

Note all the upgrades listed

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 01:25

Its 85, the page for points in the back of the book literally says to pay for all upgrades with a cost.

The SM book has some units with the same kind of thing, Relic Terminators comes with a Power Fist but it also has a cost of 5pts, so its not free.

Literally just read page 114 of the new codex.

PS, look at Scourges, 4 models can take 6 different weapons 4x, or Kabals can take up to 2 Heavy and 4 assault weapons. B.c they have the options for more its 1 base cost and you buy for X amount that you need.
B.c of how buying gear works they made it uniform to understand. A venom is forced to come with gear, so instead of changing the formula they made the Venom base cost 65 so its easier to see the point value of the Splinter Cannon instead of saying "well this 1 unit has this 1 item that is free but the Venom is 75pts" every units entry would look different and it would cause even more confusing and chaos.

Many units has must take gear in other books that they have to pay for this is nothing new.

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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 10:15

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Karr4x wrote:
Yeah whenever an equipment is listed, you have to pay for it.
As another proof for that, the official WH40K Battleforge app lists Venoms at 75 points base and 85 points with the double splinter cannon option.

And then, just to shoot themselves in the foot a bit more, they put this up on WC:

 how much does a venon really cost? 21l2cfyLMjvEsquU

Note all the upgrades listed

I'm not even sure GW knows how they intended it. So yeah, this needs a faq.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 30 2021, 13:12

Honestly, venoms are not really floating my boat right now. Raiders are so good that the point is kinda moot imho.

Tbf, last game my double SC venom missed 8 of 12 shots (even with BH rerolls!!!) so I may just be salty Razz
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Stolensoul
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PostSubject: Re: how much does a venon really cost?    how much does a venon really cost? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 18 2021, 16:05

Sorry for a bit of grave-digging, it's just now I've found my way back to the Darkcity.
I'd argue that it's actually intended to cost 75 points with 2 SC-s, because the basic price is 65 and +10 part represents a certain option, not some real-market-wargear-price. The option here is to replace twin splinter rifle with and additional Splinter Cannon.
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