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 9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input

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fisheyes
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AlCorps
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PostSubject: 9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input   9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 17:42

Good afternoon, puny mortals.

Like my previous mathhammer thread after phoenix rising (here), I'll be putting together some tables comparing different units with different weapons, obsessions, warlord traits, combat drugs, strats, auras, etc...
The aim is to get an "in a vacuum" idea of the best unit for a task, compared unit to unit and per points cost.

What I need from you guys:
Requests on what sort of unit comparisons you would like to see. Try to keep them in a category, I can't compare every single unit in the book in a single spreadsheet...
Eg:
What is the fightiest combat character against primaris, or gravis.
What is the best scourge weapon for killing a land raider.
What is the best kabal combo for venoms

This is purely from the new 9th ed codex (and supplement), I won't be comparing old rules to new rules.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input   9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 17:53

I think scourges would be an interesting place to start. Their weapons changed quite a bit and a lot of the knee-jerk reactions are that they are bad (or at least less good than other options). I'm not sure I believe it.

Being able to compare them (both in BH and not) against DL Ravagers (both BH and not) would help grant some perspective.

The categories I think would be relevant would be T7 or less, T8, and both those categories with -1 damage mods (dreads and disgustingly resilient).
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input   9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 18:21

I would love to know what the most efficient weapons VS some of the more common enemy units would be.

Marines:
-Bladeguard with Transhuman + Apothicary (T4, W3, 2+/4++/6+++, wound on 4s)
-Primaris Marine in Cover (T4, W2, 2+)
-Vanguard Vets with Shield (T4, W2, 2+/4++)

Necrons:
-Warriors (T4, W1, 4+/5+++)
-Skorpek Destroyers (T5, W3, 3+, -1 to wound)

Sisters:
-Repentia (Honestly not too familiar with their stats, but they scare the heck out of me)
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input   9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 20:59

@sekac wrote:
I think scourges would be an interesting place to start. Their weapons changed quite a bit and a lot of the knee-jerk reactions are that they are bad (or at least less good than other options). I'm not sure I believe it.

Being able to compare them (both in BH and not) against DL Ravagers (both BH and not) would help grant some perspective.

The categories I think would be relevant would be T7 or less, T8, and both those categories with -1 damage mods (dreads and disgustingly resilient).

I would throw into the comparison also the following:
-2x 5 Warriors + Blaster in Dark Lance Raider (BH, OR, none)
-Trueborn with 2x Blaster and 1x Dark lance in Dark lance Raider (BH, OR, none)
-Reavers with Heat Lances (with and without +1BS Drug)
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input   9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 21:15

@AlCorps wrote:
Good afternoon, puny mortals.

Like my previous mathhammer thread after phoenix rising (here), I'll be putting together some tables comparing different units with different weapons, obsessions, warlord traits, combat drugs, strats, auras, etc...
The aim is to get an "in a vacuum" idea of the best unit for a task, compared unit to unit and per points cost.

What I need from you guys:
Requests on what sort of unit comparisons you would like to see. Try to keep them in a category, I can't compare every single unit in the book in a single spreadsheet...
Eg:
What is the fightiest combat character against primaris, or gravis.
What is the best scourge weapon for killing a land raider.
What is the best kabal combo for venoms

This is purely from the new 9th ed codex (and supplement), I won't be comparing old rules to new rules.

Would love for you to confirm my thoughts on top 3 Succubus builds Smile

Right now, I think that's:
1. Competitive Edge + Adrenalight + Trypitch Whip
2. Precision Blows + Razorflails + Adrenalight + Black Lotus Toxin
3. ???

Target can be the gold standard Primaris for simplicity.

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JRG
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input   9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 06:47

Another interesting comparison could be Hellions vs reavers, these two units fill a similar role and so I'd be interested if with data we can start to see where the value of each is.
I was thinking reasonable size units of equivalent points. Reavers with blasters and MWs on charge.
Then do the calculations across the movement phase (eviscerating flyby) shooting and combat vs say a Primaris equivalent profile.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input   9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 13:55

Not sure how valuable the Reaver vs Hellion conparison would be, since its kinda apples/oranges.

Hellions are cheap throw-away CC monsters

Reavers are expensive semi-tough toolbox unit that does damage in every phase of the game.

I see myself playing the Hellions very aggressively turn 2, and keeping my reavers back for a power play in Turn 3/4.
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input   9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 14:13

Id like to see a comparison of the new Haywire, heat lances, dark lances, blasters, and disintegrators against standard vehicles and vehicles with a 5++. Maybe through in DG vehicles

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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input   9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 15:17

@fisheyes wrote:
Not sure how valuable the Reaver vs Hellion conparison would be, since its kinda apples/oranges.

Hellions are cheap throw-away CC monsters

Reavers are expensive semi-tough toolbox unit that does damage in every phase of the game.

I see myself playing the Hellions very aggressively turn 2, and keeping my reavers back for a power play in Turn 3/4.

Not quite sure I agree with you on this.  Before this Codex absolutely apples and oranges, everything you said a bullseye.

However now they are much more is line with each other.  Hellions are 4" slower but can advance and still fire all guns; same toughness, strength, wounds, attacks, AP; D2 vs D1 in close combat; 1 lower save; no heavy weapons; hit and run; more bodies; 3 pts cheaper.

They are more similar now than ever before, they just target different things in shooting. and Hellions can deal more damage in CC. They are even the ones that make best use of the BS combat drug.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input   9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 18:52

@Dalamar wrote:

Not quite sure I agree with you on this.  

I am coming from a Marine/Necron Meta, so my main thoughts are around Primaris bodies and C'Tan. While its true that both units are fast and hard hitting, with a lot of overlaps, I just see them going after different things.

D2 on the Hellions make me want to charge into that pesky infiltrating 5 man Primaris unit. I have not run the numbers, but I just dont see the Reavers taking out this squad (I could be very wrong)

Reavers getting real shooting (Blasters jump out at me for the Assault advance+shoot), and an auto advance of 26" makes me want to hide them somewhere mid-board and just do doughnuts tagging units for the Flyby strat, then shooting the edge of a second unit.

When I run my numbers, the 10 Hellions = 170 points and the 9 Reavers = 225.

Running Realspace Raiding Force and going Cursed Blade for that S5 on everything. Rolling 2 drugs on the Reavers and the +1A on the Hellions. That is my thought process anyway.

Both units can 1-shot a C'Tan after running those numbers, so I am starting to see where your coming from. Hmm, TY for giving me something to chew on tonight...
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Oaka
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input   9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 19:47

I'm interested in Coven durability between Prophets of Flesh and Artists of the Flesh across the various units. I like to use Talos and so far AotF easily comes out ahead, and may in fact be better than the old PoF, but it would be nice to have a second set of eyes go over it.
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input   9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 22:24

@fisheyes wrote:
@Dalamar wrote:

Not quite sure I agree with you on this.  

I am coming from a Marine/Necron Meta, so my main thoughts are around Primaris bodies and C'Tan. While its true that both units are fast and hard hitting, with a lot of overlaps, I just see them going after different things.

D2 on the Hellions make me want to charge into that pesky infiltrating 5 man Primaris unit. I have not run the numbers, but I just dont see the Reavers taking out this squad (I could be very wrong)

Reavers getting real shooting (Blasters jump out at me for the Assault advance+shoot), and an auto advance of 26" makes me want to hide them somewhere mid-board and just do doughnuts tagging units for the Flyby strat, then shooting the edge of a second unit.

When I run my numbers, the 10 Hellions = 170 points and the 9 Reavers = 225.

Running Realspace Raiding Force and going Cursed Blade for that S5 on everything. Rolling 2 drugs on the Reavers and the +1A on the Hellions. That is my thought process anyway.

Both units can 1-shot a C'Tan after running those numbers, so I am starting to see where your coming from. Hmm, TY for giving me something to chew on tonight...

For me, I will definitely try 20 Hellions, probably from RedGrief (but I need some tests). Just because I wanna do 14"+2"+D6" from an Obscuring terrain, rolling 20 dice with EFB, doing 10 MWs likely, shoot, and then charge.

I guess 10 Reavers are going to fly with them.
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input   9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 24 2021, 18:18

Some interesting ideas here.

I started on the scourges first, as they have had the most changes and use weapons also available to other units. Already some surprising results, the anti-tank weapon options across the book will need close inspection with all the new profiles. Haywire blasters and dark lances might not be the go-to....

Judging toughness of units is tricky, as they could be shot or attacked by anything, and usually a unit will be shot by a weapon that's good at killing it. Saying "wracks are tougher against autocannons and talos are tougher against lasguns" doesn't really help, as they won't be shot at in the that combination. However, the short version is wracks are better as PoF and talos are better with armoured resilience.

The hellions vs reavers debate opens up an interesting area: advancing vs shooting, and close combat vs shooting. Both units want to shoot (with various weapon options), both want to advance EFB strat, and both want to charge. So the combined output over a a turn (and the damage per points cost) now involves more options.
This becomes and even bigger decision with talos. Not only do the need to choose between various guns, shooting or advancing, they also need to choose between more liquifier guns or more close combat attacks.

The succubus options are going to be a fun one, as there are so many combos. I haven't even had a look at the cult of strife supplement yet.
Normally I could list out all the combos and there would be a winner. But, if you want the best 2 succubi, you will have to look much further down the list to find 2 unique equipment sets.

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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input   9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 24 2021, 18:23

@AlCorps wrote:
The succubus options are going to be a fun one, as there are so many combos. I haven't even had a look at the cult of strife supplement yet.
Normally I could list out all the combos and there would be a winner. But, if you want the best 2 succubi, you will have to look much further down the list to find 2 unique equipment sets.

For my request, maybe start with the combos I listed here:
https://www.thedarkcity.net/t19165-hero-s-new-book-and-new-lists

A few friends and I think we landed on the most damaging ones. Would be nice to have it written out confirmed vs. Primaris Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input   9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 25 2021, 10:25

Succubus with Tryptich Whip and Precision Blows vs Succubus With Tryptich Whip and Extra 2 attacks vs Succubus with Tryptich Whip and Strife Warlord Trait

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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input   9th ed Mathammer Thread - request for input I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 25 2021, 12:47

I'd like to see the math for the optimal drugs to take on the various cult units against standard enemies we face.

+1S vs +1A drugs on:
- wyches
- hellions
- reavers

I'd love to see how these different units and loadouts do against primaris, guard and gravis and how being cursed blade changes things vs being another obsession.

It might also be nice to see how the above cult units do without any offensive drugs too. I used to like taking +1T on reavers and it'd be good to see how this works on them and the others in the new dex.
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