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fisheyes
Incubi
fisheyes

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PostSubject: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 13:23

So I am sure many of us watched the new Dark Eldar codex release, and have seen that <Coven> and Wracks in general have changed drastically.

Now that Wracks get a 5+++ save instead of the old 5++ save, how are people thinking about running them?

The new "Super Wrack" unit gets to have their +1 to the invulnerable save (so 5++/5+++ for most of the game), and a Master Haemonculus can resurect D3 wracks every turn. I dont know if large 20 man blobs are worth it anymore.

My first test game with the new codex will probably just include the max 10 man Super-Wrack unit and nothing more.

What are the thoughts from my fellow Archons? Going Dark Techno for the mass D2 Flamers? Grabbing the +1AP <Coven> for some CC monsters? Going custom Coven for resurrecting's an additional D3 after killing something in CC?
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sweetbacon
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sweetbacon

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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 15:31

I’m going to play around with several different list builds using either small DT Liquifier squads in Venoms or 20 man squads with PoF to take and hold objectives. I also think DT 20 man squads with four Hexrifles just camping on your back objective can be good for character harassment as AP -2 3 Dmg sniper rifles that wound most characters on 2s is going to be great for forcing your opponent to hide annoying support characters like Foul Blightspawn or Chaplains/Librarians. Just two failed saves will kill most characters in the game now.
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sekac
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sekac

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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 17:41

I think 5 naked wracks for 40 points will make a great option to put into strategic reserves and pop out on turns 2 and 3 to get deploy scramblers and to help ensure engage on all fronts.
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fisheyes
Incubi
fisheyes

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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 18:36

With Wracks costing the same as a Warrior, I currently see the Warrior as a little better.

The Super Wracks with their 5++/5+++ are interesting, but I dont see myself taking any beyond those.
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Cerve
Hekatrix
Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 19:36

@sweetbacon wrote:
I’m going to play around with several different list builds using either small DT Liquifier squads in Venoms or 20 man squads with PoF to take and hold objectives.  I also think DT 20 man squads with four Hexrifles just camping on your back objective can be good for character harassment as AP -2 3 Dmg sniper rifles that wound most characters on 2s is going to be great for forcing your opponent to hide annoying support characters like Foul Blightspawn or Chaplains/Librarians.  Just two failed saves will kill most characters in the game now.

I think that Hexrifle is for the Acotyst only. So if you want 4 of them you have to do 4x5 squads, not 1x20.



Besides the obvious DT, there are some uses that I can think about it.

PoF: 20 man size squad with a partial Transhuman sounds nice. You don't want shoot them with multiple damages, so you would fire them with saturation. But this saturation will wounds on 4+, saving 6++/5+++ and they're 20. +D3 every turn. That sounds tanky for an OS troop wo will even fight a bit.
The same is with the Haemoxyti, 10 but 5++/5++, same resuts.

13th: Ap-2 with blade artists and rerolling wounds strats sounds great. If you spend 2 CPs you will be able to threat Veichles as well.

EDIT on DarkCreed. It works by units, not models. Meh
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sweetbacon
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sweetbacon

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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 19:51

Ah, you’re right. I thought you could take one for the Acorhyst and one for every five like with the other ranges weapons. In that case I’d do 5 x 5 with a Hexeifle and Liquifier in each if I was going for drive by shooting in a transport as a list.
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CptMetal
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CptMetal

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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 09:45

How many liquifier can I put in a 5 men squad?

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sekac
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sekac

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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 13:32

@CptMetal wrote:
How many liquifier can I put in a 5 men squad?

2 as before. One on the Acothyst, 1 per 5 models.
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fisheyes
Incubi
fisheyes

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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 13:44

I am currently imagining running just a small Coven element to my lists now, basically a Haemi, 10 Super-Wracks, then 5 Grots (love that sweet D2).

None of the named-Covens are really doing it for me with these units.

My current thought would be a Custom Coven with re-roll charges and -1CP on Torturers Craft (re-roll wounds). All of my Coven units would benefit from that.

Really strange building Coven for damage output instead of survivability. Loving this new Codex!
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Soulless Samurai
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 14:56

@fisheyes wrote:
With Wracks costing the same as a Warrior, I currently see the Warrior as a little better.

The Super Wracks with their 5++/5+++ are interesting, but I dont see myself taking any beyond those.

I think Warriors are a bit more flexible but DT Wracks still look very appealing to me.

3 units with Hexrifles (and probably Ossefactors) could do some serious damage to enemy characters, and have the advantage of not requiring transports.

Or you could have 3 units with 2 Liquifier Guns each, all charging towards the enemy.


Only issue is that I'm not sure I'd particularly want DT Grots, Talos or Cronos (maybe the Cronos?) - so it would just be a small, support detachment for me.

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fisheyes
Incubi
fisheyes

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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 15:03

Thats kinda what I am thinking. Most of the benefits for Wracks are not great on Talos/Grots, and vise-versa.

The closest I can see is the custom-coven I mentioned above.

Regardless, Coven have gone from an Auto-include/ Always-good list addition to more of a "niche" thing. You would need to build your list around having your DT dudes doing their thing, and I would rather build for straight speed/damage with the Cults.

If you minimize the Wrack component, and max out on Grots/Talos the -1 Damage Custom Coven is a slam dunk, but the opportunity cost just doesnt make sense to me at this early time.

Damn do I love this Codex! So many permutations to run Very Happy

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Cavash
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Cavash

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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 15:28

@fisheyes wrote:
I am currently imagining running just a small Coven element to my lists now, basically a Haemi, 10 Super-Wracks, then 5 Grots (love that sweet D2).

Have been out of the hobbt for a while so could you clarify something for me? Does D2 equate to dealing 2 wounds? Cheers

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The Strange Dark One
Wych
The Strange Dark One

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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 15:41

@Cavash wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:
I am currently imagining running just a small Coven element to my lists now, basically a Haemi, 10 Super-Wracks, then 5 Grots (love that sweet D2).

Have been out of the hobbt for a while so could you clarify something for me? Does D2 equate to dealing 2 wounds? Cheers

Indeed. Since 8th edition every weapon now has a "damage" characteristic and having multiple wounds is much more common (2 wounds for Marines, 3 wounds for Terminators etc.). Similarly, there is no difference between wounding monsters and vehicles.

It's a huge improvement on the game because S6/S7 weapon spam isn't the answer to everything anymore. Even better, our lances now deal 3 + D3 damage.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 15:43

Do Dark Creed provide the -1 to Ld? If you had a Dark Creed Venom with Grisly Trophies would it stack the Ld de buff?

Because if it does, then that’s a nice support unit for a load of Incubi.
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Cerve
Hekatrix
Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 15:47

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Do Dark Creed provide the -1 to Ld? If you had a Dark Creed Venom with Grisly Trophies would it stack the Ld de buff?

Because if it does, then that’s a nice support unit for a load of Incubi.

Yes, and yes. Tabletop Titans on youtube got their first game with this combo.

That's the way I want to try too. If you think about it, DarkCreed get a straight foward +1 to hit against everything when you support with Trophies. Them+Incubi are nasty.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 15:49

@Cerve wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Do Dark Creed provide the -1 to Ld? If you had a Dark Creed Venom with Grisly Trophies would it stack the Ld de buff?

Because if it does, then that’s a nice support unit for a load of Incubi.

Yes, and yes. Tabletop Titans on youtube got their first game with this combo.

That's the way I want to try too. If you think about it, DarkCreed get a straight foward +1 to hit against everything when you support with Trophies. Them+Incubi are nasty.

That may be the way forward for me then as I will perhaps only be taking a small number of coven for tactical reasons rather than durability or killy reasons.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 16:23

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Do Dark Creed provide the -1 to Ld? If you had a Dark Creed Venom with Grisly Trophies would it stack the Ld de buff?

Because if it does, then that’s a nice support unit for a load of Incubi.

Don't forget the synergy with Phantasm Grenade Launchers to cause mortal wounds.
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Soulless Samurai
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 16:34

@Cerve wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Do Dark Creed provide the -1 to Ld? If you had a Dark Creed Venom with Grisly Trophies would it stack the Ld de buff?

Because if it does, then that’s a nice support unit for a load of Incubi.

Yes, and yes. Tabletop Titans on youtube got their first game with this combo.

That's the way I want to try too. If you think about it, DarkCreed get a straight foward +1 to hit against everything when you support with Trophies. Them+Incubi are nasty.

Might this sort of strategy make PGL-spam viable?


EDIT: Ninja'd.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 17:16

Also Dark Creed have a very cool Heamy build for more disruptive behaviour which is kinda cool.

I think there are just so many ways of building a list now...it’s just so cool. There are very few “auto includes” which makes everyone’s lists so varied and capable of different play styles.

You won’t be getting bored in a hurry with DE!

Who’s pre ordered btw?
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Cerve
Hekatrix
Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 19:07

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Do Dark Creed provide the -1 to Ld? If you had a Dark Creed Venom with Grisly Trophies would it stack the Ld de buff?

Because if it does, then that’s a nice support unit for a load of Incubi.

Yes, and yes. Tabletop Titans on youtube got their first game with this combo.

That's the way I want to try too. If you think about it, DarkCreed get a straight foward +1 to hit against everything when you support with Trophies. Them+Incubi are nasty.

Might this sort of strategy make PGL-spam viable?


EDIT: Ninja'd.


I think it can ben, potentially!
The problem is when you try to stuff everything in the list. But potentially...yeah, you can simply massacre a single unit with multiple Pgl shots if I'm not missing anything.


If you spam veichles, you can even try this weird thing that it spamming chains. DarkCreed gives you +1 to hit if enemy Ld is equal o less than yours, so like every Venom/Raider are going to fight with 6 Attacks, WS3+ (don't forget Trophyes for a total of -3) S6(7) Ap-1 D1. Which isn't bad when you think about cleaning chaff units without shooting a single shot. You just gain a straight foward melee potential from "nothing" if you think about that. Because transports usually don't fight. So it's not tha you're wasting other valuable unit's shoot/melee potential on expendable shielding units.
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fisheyes
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fisheyes

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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 19:24

There is certainly something to be said for the reawakening of our old 7th edition Freakshow lists built around the Dark Creed leadership debuffs. But it would need a whole list built around it, with MSU coven units and a "bunch" of transports sporting the Grisley Trophies. I am sure that list is valuable somewhere, but not really what I am thinking about TBH.

Really like the Black Heart re-rolls for my transports right now.

Still not seeing much that interests me more than my Re-roll charges/Torturers Craft custom Coven. Electrocorrosive Whips giving the Acothyst A6 isnt bad at all, that seems to be the best option for a TAC style list.

But I do like the discussion! Please keep the ideas flowing

Edit: I totally did the pre-order, and glad I did. A buddy tried to get the Piety and Pain box set around noon, and they were LONG gone by that time XD
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 19:48

Dark Creed Venom on turn 3 would be hitting on 2s in combat lol is that right? Because they hit on 4s and turn 3 it’s +1 to hit from pfp. They would be dishing out -3 to Ld with Grisly Trophies and Dark Creed so they would be gaining +1 to hit. I’m not saying it’s competitive but quite funny to think your Venoms are potentially having 6 S6 attacks hitting on 2s. Some armies don’t have a single unit that can do that lol
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fisheyes
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fisheyes

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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 19:55

The changes to Venoms is phenomenal. I keep wanting to throw in 4, then give them Grisly Trophies, Chain Snairs, Second Splinter Cannon.... Then suddenly my list is 2251 points XD
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 20:04

@fisheyes wrote:
What are the thoughts from my fellow Archons? Going Dark Techno for the mass D2 Flamers? Grabbing the +1AP <Coven> for some CC monsters? Going custom Coven for resurrecting's an additional D3 after killing something in CC?

The first one. Drive-by liquifying my enemies.

I'm actually planning to convert some wracks.
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Cerve
Hekatrix
Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: Wrack Attack   Wrack Attack I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 23 2021, 00:12

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Dark Creed Venom on turn 3 would be hitting on 2s in combat lol is that right? Because they hit on 4s and turn 3 it’s +1 to hit from pfp. They would be dishing out -3 to Ld with Grisly Trophies and Dark Creed so they would be gaining +1 to hit. I’m not saying it’s competitive but quite funny to think your Venoms are potentially having 6 S6 attacks hitting on 2s. Some armies don’t have a single unit that can do that lol

I guess you still limited to +1/-1 final modifiers from the 9th. So you will never fight at Ws2+. But if you will fight some -1 to hit, then you still go at 3+ (+2 -1= +1).
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