However, another combo that I think is worthwhile exploring is Competitive Edge and Razorflails. It will almost certainly see an FAQ, but I have to mention it due to the sheer ridiculousness of it. Of course, this also means you can pair it up with DLT (Dark Lotus Toxin). There's definitely some controversy on the legitimacy of this combo, so for now, I'll continue to play this list as is.
I see the FAQ nerf bat in the near future. Nick Nanavati used this to finish off a knight like 8-10 wounds, kill a squad of Metallica dogs, and a squad of electro priests in 2 turns, playing John Lennon. John was saying that it is absurd.
As a side note, because I have never done it yet, what rules do you use to outflank infantry? Nick was outflanking 3 units of 5 liquefier wracks.
There's a stratagem that allows you to place 1-9 power level worth of units in Strategic Reserves for 1 CP (or pay more to put more in SR). Since wracks are 3 PL, you can put all 3 in for 1 CP.
On turn 2 they can arrive wholly within 6" of any board edge except your opponent's and not within their deployment zone either. On turn 3, you can arrive wholly within 6" of any board edge (hello, Deploy Scramblers). It is almost always a good investment.
My favorite uses in the previous book were 1 haemonculus, 5 wracks, 1 sslyth for 1 CP or 1 Ravager, 1 sslyth. Need to figure out the good uses for it now, but DT wracks with liqs seems obvious.
Ew, Wracks. But yeah, those DT wracks are super obvious as good flanking units. For this kind of list, a cheap Wych unit is also 3 PL. You can keep them at 5x for 50 points, run them with a blast pistol and try and get mileage out of them. They're FAST, so might be good options to be scramblers.
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sekac Wych
Posts : 649 Join date : 2017-06-03
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Fri Mar 26 2021, 21:16
The first 2 Scramblers (our DZ and neutral zone) are easy enough. The neutral one is beyond 6" of any DZ, and our units move a minimum of 7. So there's no real way to prevent us from bagging the neutral zone on turn 1.
The risk of running a fast squad of wyches up the table is, of course, that they can be killed before they make it to the opponent's area. On the other hand, the risk if you wait til turn 3 to SR a cheap squad in the backfield, is your opponent can screen you out.
Having a unit that has the flexibility to play it either way depending on matchup is ideal.
HERO Hekatrix
Posts : 1057 Join date : 2012-04-13
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Sat Mar 27 2021, 02:59
Tis true..
Here's what the list can look like with Incubi.. just a forewarning, the more Warriors you remove from the list, the less firepower to harass the enemy.
Quote :
WORK IN PROGRESS -------------------------------- 1970, 14 CP -2 WL Traits, -2 Relic = 10 CP
I see the FAQ nerf bat in the near future. Nick Nanavati used this to finish off a knight like 8-10 wounds, kill a squad of Metallica dogs, and a squad of electro priests in 2 turns, playing John Lennon. John was saying that it is absurd.
Back in the day when I was on Druchii.net there was someone named Dalamar, I don’t suppose that’s you? Because if it is...hello again!
HERO Hekatrix
Posts : 1057 Join date : 2012-04-13
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Sat Mar 27 2021, 06:28
I see the FAQ nerf bat in the near future. Nick Nanavati used this to finish off a knight like 8-10 wounds, kill a squad of Metallica dogs, and a squad of electro priests in 2 turns, playing John Lennon. John was saying that it is absurd.
Back in the day when I was on Druchii.net there was someone named Dalamar, I don’t suppose that’s you? Because if it is...hello again!
Probably, just like how I'm the same HERO from Ulthuan/Druchii as well Turns out that dirty Elf players continue playing elves in space.
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SERAFF Sybarite
Posts : 259 Join date : 2013-02-12
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Mon Mar 29 2021, 09:53
Revisiting this for a second, but in arguing with several rules lawyers, I actually think we can if we're paying for it using Prizes from the Dark City. This will definitely need a FAQ I think, but there's nothing currently written in the Rust Book that restricts this. The wording right now restricts the free Relic to Cult of Strife Warlord.
Does it mean, that if you are buying a relic from the Book of Rust for CP, you can equip an Archon with Dark Lotus Toxin? There is no restriction for a model or equipment, but something feels not right here.
Revisiting this for a second, but in arguing with several rules lawyers, I actually think we can if we're paying for it using Prizes from the Dark City. This will definitely need a FAQ I think, but there's nothing currently written in the Rust Book that restricts this. The wording right now restricts the free Relic to Cult of Strife Warlord.
Does it mean, that if you are buying a relic from the Book of Rust for CP, you can equip an Archon with Dark Lotus Toxin? There is no restriction for a model or equipment, but something feels not right here.
I don't believe so, because it says the relics are for Cult of Strife. Certainly how I would play it RAI. Maybe bring it up in the rules forum?
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KabaliteSon Hellion
Posts : 98 Join date : 2011-12-05 Location : UK
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Tue Mar 30 2021, 01:21
Here's what the list can look like with Incubi.. just a forewarning, the more Warriors you remove from the list, the less firepower to harass the enemy.
Quote :
WORK IN PROGRESS -------------------------------- 1970, 14 CP -2 WL Traits, -2 Relic = 10 CP
K, I think I'm done with list variation now, you guys have what I'll be playing with the new book!
30 extra points so you can buy all the Grisly Trophies if you want!
I like this list a lot. Super similar to the one I posted earlier you saw. Hadn't seen this one yet, great minds.... I think I'd run something super close to this for a Raiding Forces list. Would probably use another Wych squad over Warriors, but thats 100% preference, maybe squeeze Lelith in too somehow.
Stoked to hear how this does with the warriors with splinter racks, I like the idea of sitting at range blasting away, rerolling DL or Blaster Shots.
May steal your Succubus loadouts too, that razorflail/precision blows/DLT may be nastier that triptych whip.
EDIT: Unless Im missing something, I think you have an extra Raider in your list, unless you're running 5 incubi and a HQ in each Raider.
HERO Hekatrix
Posts : 1057 Join date : 2012-04-13
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Tue Mar 30 2021, 05:00
Nope, you got your 6 Raiders. 3 for the Warriors, 1 for the Bloodbrides, 2 for the Incubi + assorted heroes.
Remember, the more you take out from the Warriors, the less impact you have at range and threaten your opponent. My meta has an asston of marines, BA, DA, as well as Sisters, Guard and Tau. Our problem right now is that we just don't have enough points to take everything
IMO, our melee should be expendable. They're very much one-and-done due to the fragile nature of how they are. They will hit like a truck, but will die to a breeze. Warriors will survive longer than them in their Raiders, which is why they're more of a staple to my list.
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HERO Hekatrix
Posts : 1057 Join date : 2012-04-13
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Tue Mar 30 2021, 07:25
Variation of list #1, now with more MSU lose 2 lances, lose some racks, gain MSU all over
Quote :
WORK IN PROGRESS -------------------------------- 2000, 14 CP -2 WL Traits, -2 Relic = 10 CP
I see the FAQ nerf bat in the near future. Nick Nanavati used this to finish off a knight like 8-10 wounds, kill a squad of Metallica dogs, and a squad of electro priests in 2 turns, playing John Lennon. John was saying that it is absurd.
Back in the day when I was on Druchii.net there was someone named Dalamar, I don’t suppose that’s you? Because if it is...hello again!
Sadly not, I was an Undead player when I played Fantasy. I am not surprised that someone used that on that board however. Dalamar is the name of Raistlin Majere's only Apprentice in The Dragonlance books and the only known/named Dark Elf (not Drow). Dark elves In Dragonlance are elves who commit crimes against elven kind and are banished from elven society forever.
Hmmm. Does this knowledge date me?
HERO Hekatrix
Posts : 1057 Join date : 2012-04-13
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Tue Mar 30 2021, 21:36
I see the FAQ nerf bat in the near future. Nick Nanavati used this to finish off a knight like 8-10 wounds, kill a squad of Metallica dogs, and a squad of electro priests in 2 turns, playing John Lennon. John was saying that it is absurd.
Back in the day when I was on Druchii.net there was someone named Dalamar, I don’t suppose that’s you? Because if it is...hello again!
Sadly not, I was an Undead player when I played Fantasy. I am not surprised that someone used that on that board however. Dalamar is the name of Raistlin Majere's only Apprentice in The Dragonlance books and the only known/named Dark Elf (not Drow). Dark elves In Dragonlance are elves who commit crimes against elven kind and are banished from elven society forever.
Hmmm. Does this knowledge date me?
Interesting, I think you can live in comfort that out there somewhere, its another huge nerd that's probably read the same stuff you have
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HERO Hekatrix
Posts : 1057 Join date : 2012-04-13
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Wed Mar 31 2021, 06:05
Another list variation after 2 games. This one runs 3 gunboats, 1 missing a lance but having MSU-style setup on the Warriors. Still runs a Rack so you can take 3 gunboats double-tapping from 24".
List still sports 17 Dark Lances, 8 Blasters, but loses some Poison shots for...
THREE complete squads of Wyches.
Quote :
WORK IN PROGRESS -------------------------------- 2000, 14 CP -2 WL Traits, -2 Relic = 10 CP
What this offers you is the ability to jam up the board with melee, being super aggressive with your heroes AND Wyches, so you can laugh in Dark Lance a bit longer with your gunboats.
I'm calling this list Drazhar's Bitches and its the best list I've ever written. You have Drazhar, 30 Wyches and 2 Succubi running up the board, with the Archon and his goonsquad of 2x5 Warriors to play. LET'S GOOOOOOOOO
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Dalamar Sybarite
Posts : 291 Join date : 2012-02-28 Location : Chicago
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Wed Mar 31 2021, 17:11
Have you considered Obsidian Rose for the better math on darklance and blaster.
Or even better: .1) make one patrol OR and one BH. .2) Remove 1 Raider and change 10 man warrior squad into 5 man squad. .3) and an Archon to the 2nd Patrol and make him a master .4) Combine 2 5-man Warrior squads into 1 10 man Trueborn squad with 2 blasters and Darklance. .5) You should have 27 point left over to spend, some wych or 2nd Archon upgrades?
You lose 5 splinter rifle shots, one Raider and darklance. You gain 1 darklance 2 Blasters, 6 splinter rifles hitting on 2+, 1 Archon.
I would move everything you can into the OR patrol, for more range and reroll 1 wound roll.
Hero as an aside, are you in the land of Lincoln?
HERO Hekatrix
Posts : 1057 Join date : 2012-04-13
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Wed Mar 31 2021, 19:17
Have you considered Obsidian Rose for the better math on darklance and blaster.
Or even better: .1) make one patrol OR and one BH. .2) Remove 1 Raider and change 10 man warrior squad into 5 man squad. .3) and an Archon to the 2nd Patrol and make him a master .4) Combine 2 5-man Warrior squads into 1 10 man Trueborn squad with 2 blasters and Darklance. .5) You should have 27 point left over to spend, some wych or 2nd Archon upgrades?
You lose 5 splinter rifle shots, one Raider and darklance. You gain 1 darklance 2 Blasters, 6 splinter rifles hitting on 2+, 1 Archon.
I would move everything you can into the OR patrol, for more range and reroll 1 wound roll.
Hero as an aside, are you in the land of Lincoln?
Yeah, so.. my first actual list before I posted and was purely theorcrafting was how I can resurrect my Black Rose playstyle (Black Heart and Obs Rose pure Kabal).
The problem is the transports needing infantry, and statistically, re-roll hits from Black Heart gives me more damage than re-roll wounds if we're taking Lances. If your Warriors are sporting Lances, re-roll hits is also great because your Raider now has 2 re-rolling Dark Lances, which makes it a mini-Ravager in some ways.
Another thing that restricted me was how many slots I can get in Patrols. If I had more Troop slots, I can arguably do more with how I build my lists.
The current list above with the 30 Wyches still runs 6 Raiders, all with re-rolls on their lances. To me, that's a huge selling point, more so than the extra range or the re-roll wound. Another observation I had was how for 10 points for Splinter Racks, we essentially have a super version of the Obs Rose trait provided to what matters the most, which is Poison (literally doubles the range and shots lol). Sure, the boost on Blaster range is fine and all, but its def not needed on lances.
Also for Lincoln, nah I live in Cali.
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sekac Wych
Posts : 649 Join date : 2017-06-03
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Wed Mar 31 2021, 19:56
The problem is the transports needing infantry, and statistically, re-roll hits from Black Heart gives me more damage than re-roll wounds if we're taking Lances.
That isn't really true. BH is only better shooting at T4 or less. At T5-7, they're identical (2.96 expected damage). At T8, Obsidian Rose is better (2.5 expected damage vs 2.22 for BH).
HERO Hekatrix
Posts : 1057 Join date : 2012-04-13
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Wed Mar 31 2021, 21:24
The problem is the transports needing infantry, and statistically, re-roll hits from Black Heart gives me more damage than re-roll wounds if we're taking Lances.
That isn't really true. BH is only better shooting at T4 or less. At T5-7, they're identical (2.96 expected damage). At T8, Obsidian Rose is better (2.5 expected damage vs 2.22 for BH).
Another thing to consider is that you're diving or playing aggressively with Raiders, the range bonus is useless. Whereas the +1 PfP can actually come into play for those Raiders (+1 to hit, advance and charge, 5++). Not much for T8 these days to tackle. Knights are largely irrelevant in the face of 17+ lances and 6+ Blasters, not to mention we can do some silly stuff with our melee units that can wreck them in CC.
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sekac Wych
Posts : 649 Join date : 2017-06-03
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Wed Mar 31 2021, 21:39
The problem is the transports needing infantry, and statistically, re-roll hits from Black Heart gives me more damage than re-roll wounds if we're taking Lances.
That isn't really true. BH is only better shooting at T4 or less. At T5-7, they're identical (2.96 expected damage). At T8, Obsidian Rose is better (2.5 expected damage vs 2.22 for BH).
Another thing to consider is that you're diving or playing aggressively with Raiders, the range bonus is useless. Whereas the +1 PfP can actually come into play for those Raiders (+1 to hit, advance and charge, 5++). Not much for T8 these days to tackle. Knights are largely irrelevant in the face of 17+ lances and 6+ Blasters, not to mention we can do some silly stuff with our melee units that can wreck them in CC.
Plagueburst Crawlers are probably the most common T8 threat right now. But yeah. It's not a deciding factor either way. Just making sure you've got all the math before making final decisions. I don’t think there's a wrong answer by any means.
HERO Hekatrix
Posts : 1057 Join date : 2012-04-13
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Wed Mar 31 2021, 21:42
The problem is the transports needing infantry, and statistically, re-roll hits from Black Heart gives me more damage than re-roll wounds if we're taking Lances.
That isn't really true. BH is only better shooting at T4 or less. At T5-7, they're identical (2.96 expected damage). At T8, Obsidian Rose is better (2.5 expected damage vs 2.22 for BH).
Another thing to consider is that you're diving or playing aggressively with Raiders, the range bonus is useless. Whereas the +1 PfP can actually come into play for those Raiders (+1 to hit, advance and charge, 5++). Not much for T8 these days to tackle. Knights are largely irrelevant in the face of 17+ lances and 6+ Blasters, not to mention we can do some silly stuff with our melee units that can wreck them in CC.
Plagueburst Crawlers are probably the most common T8 threat right now. But yeah. It's not a deciding factor either way. Just making sure you've got all the math before making final decisions. I don’t think there's a wrong answer by any means.
Death Guard in general will be interesting. I'm excited to try out that matchup, especially against some folks bringing Morty. I think this is where I wish I had more poison shots and less Wyches.
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sekac Wych
Posts : 649 Join date : 2017-06-03
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Wed Mar 31 2021, 22:06
The problem is the transports needing infantry, and statistically, re-roll hits from Black Heart gives me more damage than re-roll wounds if we're taking Lances.
That isn't really true. BH is only better shooting at T4 or less. At T5-7, they're identical (2.96 expected damage). At T8, Obsidian Rose is better (2.5 expected damage vs 2.22 for BH).
Another thing to consider is that you're diving or playing aggressively with Raiders, the range bonus is useless. Whereas the +1 PfP can actually come into play for those Raiders (+1 to hit, advance and charge, 5++). Not much for T8 these days to tackle. Knights are largely irrelevant in the face of 17+ lances and 6+ Blasters, not to mention we can do some silly stuff with our melee units that can wreck them in CC.
Plagueburst Crawlers are probably the most common T8 threat right now. But yeah. It's not a deciding factor either way. Just making sure you've got all the math before making final decisions. I don’t think there's a wrong answer by any means.
Death Guard in general will be interesting. I'm excited to try out that matchup, especially against some folks bringing Morty. I think this is where I wish I had more poison shots and less Wyches.
The high level players I know all consider Morty to be a trap. Too many eggs in one basket seems to be the general consensus. You still gotta have a plan for him (shoot him a lot), but I wouldn't expect him to come up as often when facing DG in tournaments.
HERO Hekatrix
Posts : 1057 Join date : 2012-04-13
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Thu Apr 01 2021, 05:18
The problem is the transports needing infantry, and statistically, re-roll hits from Black Heart gives me more damage than re-roll wounds if we're taking Lances.
That isn't really true. BH is only better shooting at T4 or less. At T5-7, they're identical (2.96 expected damage). At T8, Obsidian Rose is better (2.5 expected damage vs 2.22 for BH).
Another thing to consider is that you're diving or playing aggressively with Raiders, the range bonus is useless. Whereas the +1 PfP can actually come into play for those Raiders (+1 to hit, advance and charge, 5++). Not much for T8 these days to tackle. Knights are largely irrelevant in the face of 17+ lances and 6+ Blasters, not to mention we can do some silly stuff with our melee units that can wreck them in CC.
Plagueburst Crawlers are probably the most common T8 threat right now. But yeah. It's not a deciding factor either way. Just making sure you've got all the math before making final decisions. I don’t think there's a wrong answer by any means.
Death Guard in general will be interesting. I'm excited to try out that matchup, especially against some folks bringing Morty. I think this is where I wish I had more poison shots and less Wyches.
The high level players I know all consider Morty to be a trap. Too many eggs in one basket seems to be the general consensus. You still gotta have a plan for him (shoot him a lot), but I wouldn't expect him to come up as often when facing DG in tournaments.
Hmm, interesting. I do see that 40kstats reports that there's a lot of DG players overall, but not many with top finishes. Will be interesting to see how they brew against us.
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HERO Hekatrix
Posts : 1057 Join date : 2012-04-13
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Thu Apr 01 2021, 20:04
One last update
Quote :
WORK IN PROGRESS -------------------------------- 2000, 14 CP -2 WL Traits, -2 Relic = 10 CP
Changelog: 2x Wyches now, brought up Warrior/Lance/Blaster count and still managed to min-max the list.
If you guys followed this thread from the beginning, you can see how it evolved over-time. And how I tweaked it from the beginning after running some games and needing a tad bit more melee.
The list as it stands will balance around 20-30 Wyches and build the rest of the Gunline behind them.
Thanks all for following, I'm most likely going to make a YouTube or stream of this list soon. I'll attach it in-thread after.
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stoni42 Slave
Posts : 5 Join date : 2012-12-03
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Fri Apr 02 2021, 00:35
Guys, I really love this thread: when I read the first version of HERO's list I thought I need to comment/ like it because it looked similar to mine. Now that I read the last version I really have to like it because now it looks even more similiar I mean I even have the same four HQs with exactly the same loadout
Main differences: * I don't use ravagers yet but some venoms. I simply don't have enough ravager/raider chassis yet. But with raiders > venoms I think this needs to change soon. * Also I feel the urgent need to include 1-2 squads of mandrakes. Not only as action monkeys, but mainly to block out things like rushing ravenguard/necrons or nurglings/infiltrators.
I definately need to consider the racks. With 10pts they seemed too expensive but with my latest experiences vs Poxwalkers the might help ...
One idea for your consideration: opponents will most likely often take Thin Their Ranks and Assasinate vs lists like this. With this in mind vs certain lists a "Defensive Trap" might be applied: by choosing the Secondaries Herd the Prey, Scrambler/Banner and While We Stand opponents might be forced to play more offence to get their secondaries instead of "They'll come for me anyways". Sure Defence might not be Drukhari style but hey ... However this approach might not work with ravagers (as they would be the WWS units) and would also need mandraks for actions ... so would fit my list more
Anyway, thanks again for this tread and all the inspirations. Will surely stay lurking
Bye, Stoni
HERO Hekatrix
Posts : 1057 Join date : 2012-04-13
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Fri Apr 02 2021, 03:24
Join date: 12/3/12, first post, my thread. I'm drawing all the Mandrakes out of the dark!
You're welcome, I'm glad I can inspire you and others to play Kabal/Cults. I think that will be the best combo for competitive play in the future.
I'm going to make a video tonight, going over the list and will post it here after. That way, you can hear me explain through some of my unit choices and why I think the way I took them is optimal.
Cheers!
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HERO Hekatrix
Posts : 1057 Join date : 2012-04-13
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists Fri Apr 02 2021, 05:58
Here you guys go, first time in a long time on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/videos/972205617
Subject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists 
Fri Mar 26 2021, 18:17
Turns out that dirty Elf players continue playing elves in space.
I mean I even have the same four HQs with exactly the same loadout 
