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 HERO's New Book and New Lists

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HERO
Hekatrix
HERO

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PostSubject: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 09:08

Get ready folks, you're about to see something magical. Something that I haven't done in a long time, which is to play Gunboat Kabals with Wych Cults mixed in.

I'll say it once and I'll say it again: This is the most fun I've had in a long time. After much tinkering with the new book, I present to you my list. Just remember a few things about me before you comment: I'm a Kabal-only player, but I've been known to dab in Wych Cults. However, I refuse to play anything Haemonculi. This is not because I don't think they're effective, but because I don't like all that fleshy meat-crafty stuff. They smell. For that reason, you will never find my lists fielding anything with Haemonculus units (plus, I don't physically own any).

Video of me explaining the list in more detail:
NEEDS UPDATING

Quote :
CURRENT COMP
------------
2000, 12 CP -2 WL Traits, -2 Relic = 8 CP

+++BLACK HEART PATROL+++

HQ:
Master Archon: Ancient Evil, Djin Blade = 85

TROOP:
10x Trueborn, 2x Blaster, Lance = 135
5x Warriors, Blaster = 50
5x Warriors, Blaster = 50

ELITE:
5x Incubi = 80
5x Incubi = 80

HEAVY:
Ravager = 140
Ravager = 140

PARTY BOATS:
Raider, Chains = 100
Raider, Chains = 100
Raider, Trophies = 100
Raider, Trophies = 100
Raider, Racks = 105
Raider, Racks = 105

+++BLACK HEART PATROL+++

HQ:
Drazhar = 145

TROOP:
5x Warriors = 40
5x Warriors = 40

+++STRIFE PATROL+++

HQ:
Master Succubus: PB, Razors, DLT, Adrenal = 75
Succubus: CE, Whip, Adrenal = 60

TROOP:
10x Bloodbrides, Grave Lotus = 120
10x Wyches, Grave Lotus = 100
5x Wyches, Grave Lotus = 50

The first thing I'm going to explain is the choices for Obsessions. Why Black Heart? Because of the amazing re-rolls it offers to my single lance boats and for my Ravagers, as well as access of the new Agents of Vect. The fact that they count PfP as 1 higher is also super good, especially because it'll provide my units with that little bit of protection in later stages of the game and keep my vehicles running if they're still around instead of limping.

Cult of Strife is an obvious pick for me, being able to strike first is great, but having access to all of the new Strategems, Warlord Traits and Relics from Book of Rust is also quite insane. Most importantly, I get to access the fight twice Strategem. This is going to be key for Wyches because they NEED to kill things before they start dying.

OK, let me first start with the characters. I'll skip past Drazhar because I think it's obvious why he's here. He's just GOOD.

Next, the humble Archon. I give him the Djin Blade because there's no point taking the existing Huskblade as is. Djin Blade at least gives him 7 attacks at S4, AP-3 and 3 damage. That 3 damage is going to be key. I've also made him a Master Archon to access Trueborn in the list, and also gives him the once the game ability to attack twice. This actually catapults his damage output to acceptable levels all things considered.

Now.. the most important part of the list when it comes to CC and that's the 2 Succubus. Get ready, it's going to get wild because I'm pretty sold that these are the most points-effective glass cannons in the entire game. These gals will absolutely murder.

The first one runs CE + Whip:
Master Succubus: Adrenalight = 75
WL: Competitive Edge
Relic: Triptych Whip

Triptych Whip gives her +3 attacks, is AP-3, Poisons on 2+, and does 2 damage each. That's already absurd considering how a Succubus has 6 base attacks and with Adrenalight, can have up to 10. OK, so now you have Competitive Edge (from the new Warzone book for Cult of Strife), which makes it so any attacks that did not reach the damage step, you can make additional attacks. I'm paraphrasing, but what this does is say, you miss 2 attacks, you fail to wound with 2, and then your opponent makes 4 invul saves. That's 8 attacks that did not make it to the damage step so you now can make 8 more attacks. Yes, it's insane, and the fact that I made her a Master means that if I don't like the results of my attacks, I can yeet something and then consolidate out before getting struck back. This makes her the ultimate hit and run killer.

The next one runs PB + Toxin with Razorflails:
Succubus: Razorflails, Adrenalight = 60
WL: Precision Blows
Relic: Dark Lotus Toxin

For 60 points, you replace everything with a Razorflail. Why? Because for each attack, make 2 hit rolls instead of 1. That means a Succubus with Adrenalight has 14 attacks when she goes in. Pop some Stims and she's at 16. The profile of the weapon is weak as F at S-User, -1 AP and 1 damage, but it doesn't matter. Instead, you have Dark Lotus Toxin, again from the Warzone book. What this does is increase the Strength and Damage of the otherwise mundane weapon you have. The only value that matters here is the 2 damage because you have Precision Blows WL trait. This trait says that with each 6 you roll to hit, you just outright do whatever the damage of the weapon is as Mortal damage. Do not pass go, straight mortals. On average, you're looking at 4.676 mortals inflicted before anything else, and if you spike, you can outright kill some characters outright. The same could be said about running this 60-point chick into a unit of Primaris. They just gonna die.

The best part: These ladies strike first, and fight again (at the end of the phase) thanks to the Strategem. Things. Are. Going. To. Die. FOR 75+60 = 135 points!

Rest of the list basically speaks for itself: I have gunboats, I purposely kept all the boats in Black Heart for the re-rolls on the Lances, while offering up 2 of the boats for the Strife Wyches and the Succubi. 3 full gunboats, 1 of which is a Trueborn unit, with Splinter Racks makes for all kinds of fun putting out full poison shots from 24". One more gunboat but without racks for more aggressive play.

The hurt analysis looks like this:
18 Dark Lances at 36" (9 Ravager, 6 Raiders, 3 Warriors) with Black Heart re-rolls
42 Poison shots at 24" (from 3x7 Warriors in the Raider with Racks), plus more from 2x5 Warriors
8 Blasters at 18" (from the Warriors in Raiders)
4 Insane melee heroes (Djin Blade/EH Archon, Drazhar, 2x Strife Succubi)
and a healthy amount of Wych attacks from both the Bloodbrides and Wyches

Secondaries will focus on movement and killing stuff, not completely sold on the Drukhari special Purge because I'm not entirely melee focused, but since your characters are great in duels, its definitely considerable. So basically, the standard Engage on All Fronts, Deploy Scramblers, but also more killy ones like Thin.

So basically 2x5 warriors in 1 raider, 3 10 man units go in the other 3. Both Wych units go in the last 2 with the 2 succubus. Archon rides in one of the Gunboats to be aggressive or defensively, and Drazhar can go in the 2x5 without the Racks. There's no restrictions for dedicated transports for how they're deployed and keeping them in black heart gives all Lances rerolls.

Fun times to be had for all (but prob just me).

When it comes to the flexibility of the list can look like this:
Take Incubi:
Incubi are great as well, and they don't smell like Coven. To get the points drop all the Dark Lances on the Warriors - MSU them to 5x with just the Blaster. Drop the smaller unit of Wyches and use the points saved from the Dark Lances to buy Incubi. Likewise, you can drop 1 unit of 10x Warriors and use the points for more Wyches or Incubi.

Warlord Traits:
If your meta will see a lot of CC thing that might intercept and kill the Wyches, drop the Hatred Eternal from the Archon and take Ancient Evil. Likewise, you can get Hatred Eternal on Drazhar if you really want to see him do work, but he already does quite a bit by himself.

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Last edited by HERO on Fri Jun 04 2021, 00:08; edited 19 times in total

harlokin, DevilDoll and sweetbacon like this post

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Cerve
Hekatrix
Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 09:39

IAnother amazing list! This Codex is just a jewel, I'm so happy with that.
As me, I would let the 2x5 Kabals on the ground and the 2x10 Wyches embarked on Raiders. I just don't feel comfy with foot Wyches if not on 20 men size units.
I would put 2 Trophies on the Wyches raiders, just helping Drazhar with his fight-last shenanigans. -2LD within  3" is huge when you come with Drazh/Incubi.

But they're just few tweeks, nothing big. Damn I love this book Smile
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Denegaar
Hellion
Denegaar

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 11:10

Looks cool. I don't know where to start playing with this Codex Smile
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HERO
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 17:30

@Cerve wrote:
IAnother amazing list! This Codex is just a jewel, I'm so happy with that.
As me, I would let the 2x5 Kabals on the ground and the 2x10 Wyches embarked on Raiders. I just don't feel comfy with foot Wyches if not on 20 men size units.
I would put 2 Trophies on the Wyches raiders, just helping Drazhar with his fight-last shenanigans. -2LD within  3" is huge when you come with Drazh/Incubi.

But they're just few tweeks, nothing big. Damn I love this book Smile

Thanks! They're not on foot. The 2 warriors get together in 1 raider and the 2 wych units go in drazhars and the empty one.

So basically 2x5 warriors in 1 raider, 3 10 man units go in the other 3. 2x10 wyches go in the last 2 with the 2 succubus. Archon and drazhar can ride in other 4. There's no restrictions for dedicated transports for how they're deployed and keeping them in black heart gives all Lance's rerolls.

This wouldn't be possible if not for 11 room carrying capacity.

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Swordxart
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 18:17

I soo love the succubus weapon possibilities lol!
cant wait to try these out too.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 18:45

@Swordxart wrote:
I soo love the succubus weapon possibilities lol!
cant wait to try these out too.

Yeah, the possibilities are near-endless, but I'm sold that I've found the best 2 damage dealing combos for Succy.

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Rodi Sikni
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 19:07

I don't have The supplement neither a leak of It, but if I'm not wrong, there is a stratagem that let you succubus repeat all The attacks that doesn't end wounding, isn't it?

So, my dear mathammers, I have a humble request for you. Could you make a simulation of our dear 60 point succubus with precisión blow razorfail + black lotus + adrenaline agains the allmight Mortarion?
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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 19:24

Wow amazing list man!!!

Edit: wait the djin blade is flat 3 damage??? I thought 1d3
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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 21:16

Holy crap, the potential damage output of just those 2 succubi is just bat-crap insane.
I played most games against a friend of mine who like to throw one or two blobs of 20 plaguebarers on the table, and those are pretty hard to kill. I'd love to see those two succubi just blend those plaguebarers to mush.

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Void Prince
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 21:26

Just noticed the statagem - Flawless approach 1cp - enemy units cannot fire overwatch or set to defend against this unit. Which means your Succy should actually get into close combat!
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 21:56

Have you thought of replacing the Lances on the ravagers with dissi cannons?

I fear if you fight something with a load of T5 W3 bodies (like Heavy intercessors, they release in march, good luck everybody) you'll just pling off
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HERO
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 21:58

One more cool thing you can do with the list is take a Hekatrix with the 1 CP Strategem Hekatrix of the Crucible, you can take Morvaine's Agonizer. It's the same as a Agonizer but makes it so anything hit cannot fall back (except vehicle, monster).

And yes, Flawless Approach is awesome for 1 CP.

Another one that's really awesome is the Art of the Kill that makes the entire unit re-roll wounds. You can fish for wound rolls with more AP-1 that way, and if you kill a unit, you can pay 1 CP to make that unit 4+ invul until next turn.

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 22:04

@AzraeI wrote:
Have you thought of replacing the Lances on the ravagers with dissi cannons?

I fear if you fight something with a load of T5 W3 bodies (like Heavy intercessors, they release in march, good luck everybody) you'll just pling off

Aye, thought about it, remains an option if the meta calls for it. But the way I see it, we have enough poison and other weapons (and CC) to combat anything infantry, allowing us to keep the lances for AT purposes.

I would also think about taking Obsidian Rose if I wanted Dissies as the re-roll to wound per would be better I think. Worst case scenario, I think having multiple lances and Blasters go into T5 W3 bodies will get the work done.

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 22:10

@Rodi Sikni wrote:
I don't have The supplement neither a leak of It, but if I'm not wrong, there is a stratagem that let you succubus repeat all The attacks that doesn't end wounding, isn't it?

So, my dear mathammers, I have a humble request for you. Could you make a simulation of our dear 60 point succubus with precisión blow razorfail + black lotus + adrenaline agains the allmight Mortarion?

I wouldn't bother trying to kill Morty unless you can get all 4 heroes in there.

Another thing to possibly keep in mind is that there's the Archon's WL trait Ancient Evil, that can make Morty fight last. That might give you a chance, but I still wouldn't bet on our duders killing Morty unless you can get all 4 in there.

I would just shoot him with every Lance and Poison weapon in the army repeatedly until he falls over though, soften him up and then get the heroes in. For sure, getting the Precision Blow Succy in there would be needed as you can get through everything but the FNP.

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Denegaar
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Denegaar

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 22:19

Wounding Mortarion only on 6s, and having 14 attacks on the charge and no rerolls, the PBlows Succubus should be:

14 x 5/6 (2+ WS) = 11,7 hits
11,7 x 1/6 (6+ to wound) = roughly 2 wounds = 4 mortal wounds
4 x 4/6 (5++ FNP) = 2,3 Damage to Mortarion

So 2-3 dmg for 60 pts, not bad.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 23:36

@HERO wrote:
However, I refuse to play anything Haemonculi. This is not because I don't think they're effective, but because I don't like all that fleshy meat-crafty stuff. They smell. For that reason, you will never find my lists fielding anything with Haemonculus units (plus, I don't physically own any).

I'm fully with you on that: Coven just isn't my cup of tea in terms of looks and to some degree in terms of theme either.

I am considering spiking up Craftworld Wraiths as Grotesques and Taloi though as I love their looks!

Looking forward to seeing your Cult and Kabal lists!
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 21 2021, 23:46

@HERO wrote:
@AzraeI wrote:
Have you thought of replacing the Lances on the ravagers with dissi cannons?

I fear if you fight something with a load of T5 W3 bodies (like Heavy intercessors, they release in march, good luck everybody) you'll just pling off

Aye, thought about it, remains an option if the meta calls for it. But the way I see it, we have enough poison and other weapons (and CC) to combat anything infantry, allowing us to keep the lances for AT purposes.

I would also think about taking Obsidian Rose if I wanted Dissies as the re-roll to wound per would be better I think. Worst case scenario, I think having multiple lances and Blasters go into T5 W3 bodies will get the work done.

I thought so too, but don't forget that marines have a strat that gives gravis unit +1 to saves against D1 weapons
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Rodi Sikni
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 00:03

but is not precision blow triggered on the hit rolls?

6 base attacks + 1 adrenaline attack + 1 dark lotus attack= 8 attacks, 16 with the razorfail.

16x1/6= 2,66 -> 5,33 mw from the precision blow

16-2,66 failed and - 2,66 used for the pb= 10,65 hits

10,65x1/6= 1,77 fp-1 wounds on 6+ = 0,88 unsaved wounds on sa4+

0,88+5,33= 6,21
6,21x4/6= 4,14 wounds after the 5+++ fnp.

I'm right? I was hoppin to reach the 5 wounds at least. Damned mortarion.
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HERO
Hekatrix
HERO

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 05:55

@Rodi Sikni wrote:
but is not precision blow triggered on the hit rolls?

6 base attacks + 1 adrenaline attack + 1 dark lotus attack= 8 attacks, 16 with the razorfail.

16x1/6= 2,66 -> 5,33 mw from the precision blow

16-2,66 failed and - 2,66 used for the pb= 10,65 hits

10,65x1/6= 1,77 fp-1 wounds on 6+ = 0,88 unsaved wounds on sa4+

0,88+5,33= 6,21
6,21x4/6= 4,14 wounds after the 5+++ fnp.

I'm right? I was hoppin to reach the 5 wounds at least. Damned mortarion.

Dark Lotus Toxin is +1S and +1D to the mundane weapon.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 14:52

With regard to the Lance vs Dissie debate on Heavy Intercessors, they are roughly equal. Lance is actually slightly better (like 10% absolute). This is with my very rough napkin math, actual math would be slightly different with re-rolls and the W3 profile vs D2 weapons.

We do have access to a bunch of D2 close combat weapons now, it may be better to try and fit a few of those in your list. A counter-punch Hellion unit of 10 sitting in the back would be my #1 pick.

(Not going to mention D2 Grotesques, due to your aversion to all things Coven)
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 15:31

@Rodi Sikni wrote:
but is not precision blow triggered on the hit rolls?

6 base attacks + 1 adrenaline attack + 1 dark lotus attack= 8 attacks, 16 with the razorfail.

16x1/6= 2,66 -> 5,33 mw from the precision blow

16-2,66 failed and - 2,66 used for the pb= 10,65 hits

10,65x1/6 1/3= 1,77 3.55 fp-1 wounds on 6+ = 0,88 1.77 unsaved wounds on sa4+ inflicting each 2 damage = 3.54

0,883.54 +5,33= 6,21 8,87
6,21 8.87x4/6= 4,14 5.91 wounds after the 5+++ fnp.

I'm right? I was hoppin to reach the 5 wounds at least. Damned mortarion.

Here you go! 5 wounds, almost 6!
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 15:52

@DevilDoll wrote:
Wow amazing list man!!!

Edit: wait the djin blade is flat 3 damage??? I thought 1d3

That's the new Djinn Blade
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 16:04

I like the list. Bring it Down is a pain with the new 11 wound Ravagers though. What secondary objectives are you looking at using?
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 22 2021, 17:50

@Vailex wrote:
I like the list.  Bring it Down is a pain with the new 11 wound Ravagers though.  What secondary objectives are you looking at using?

I think that depends on the meta and the matchup, but anything with movement and killing. I am not sold on the new book kill-more secondary but I'm thinking about it. I just don't have enough melee (I have some, but it's not purely melee-focused).

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's New Book and New Lists   HERO's New Book and New Lists I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 23 2021, 07:51

Math wins out and list shifted:
Welcome 10x Bloodbrides and 8x Wyches (vs. 10 and 10 Smile)

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