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 The Shredder change boggles my mind.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 22 2021, 13:23

So the GW team is thinking up ways to balance the army, and they notice that many more people are taking blasters on warriors in venoms and raiders instead of shredders. many Many more.

So they have a few options.

Make Shredders Flamers (we would all be happy)

Make shredders AP-4 on a roll of a 6 to wound. (Other monofilament weapons are this way... makes perfect sense)

But when the design team brings these changes to the head honcho to choose one (or both), the honcho looks at them and says
"You are missing the reason WHY people are taking blasters. the 18" range! that way, the venom can stay at max distance for the splinter cannon."

"But honcho" the developers would say "The venom is already anti infantry, so why would they need the shredder? wouldn't it be better to use it as an opportunity to make it viable as an alternative no matter what?"

"Good point" the honcho says. "In that case, make the splinter cannon heavy 3, that way people will want to take the shredder to make the venom good at anti infantry."
"But its good now with no changes... just make em ap-1, maybe damage 2!"

"Nope, I have spoken"

Seriously.
Any benefit to any weapon I am in favor of, but making the Shredder 18" seems a wasted opportunity. Yes, it can keep you out of charge range from enemy infantry for the most part, but I would have traded that for either of the two options listed above.
As they are now, they can deepstrike in and shoot. As they are now, they can fire and fade 19" from an enemy.
Make them a flamer. Make them ap-3 or 4 on a 6 to wound... either of these would have made us all happy.

The only, and I mean ONLY way this makes sense is if they get rid of the stupid "Blades for hire" rule.
In that case, adding 6" MORE would give them a 24" range, and that is something I can see the utility of. Staying out of charge range from jumppack troops, etc..

If that rule goes away, that means Incubi get +1 A from cult of strife (which explains why the essential HTH Dark Eldar unit did not get an attack increase while Kabalite warriors did). Mandrakes get +1 str or +1 to PFP table....

I am hopeful that this is the case...
And I am happy shredders got 6" more range.
But I think we all can agree when we were hoping for changes to the shredder, that was not on the list.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 22 2021, 15:21

I think at this point Kabalite Warriors may be the frontrunners for the 'least intuitive mix of weapon ranges' award.

- Their basic anti-infantry weapons are 24" (with 12" as the optimum range)
- Their blast pistol has a range of just 6"
- The Blaster has a range of 18"
- The Shredder now has a range of 18"
- The Dark Lance has a range of 36" and is Heavy.
- The Splinter Cannon has a range of 36" and is Heavy.

You might notice that the only weapons with overlapping ranges are the ones that can't be taken together.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 22 2021, 15:55

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Make Shredders Flamers (we would all be happy)

Make shredders AP-4 on a roll of a 6 to wound. (Other monofilament weapons are this way... makes perfect sense)

Is it worth pointing out that neither of these abilities would appear on the datasheet that's been leaked? Unless you've seen the actual Codex this thread feels slightly premature.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 22 2021, 17:02

Honestly, I think this is a great buff. I think the "idea" of a flamer is too much 7th edition thinking. The only thing that flamer-type weapons have in common is their auto-hit. This is great, but doesn't fundamentally change the role or purpose of a weapon. Yes, it's nice when you get charged, but at that point it's probably already too late.

And with Dark Lances going to D3+3 damage, the Blaster has become a much less interesting choice. Also, did you forget that Shredders have the Blast rule? Arguably, this makes them superior to most flamers.

We really need to play the game of positioning and speed. And longer range gives us more options in that regard. I liked Shredder Scourges before, but too often they were a one-use tool because of 12" range. Now they can actually shoot from cover and make use of better positioning.

Personally, I'm much more mind boggled by S2 Splinter Rifles.
I mean... what the heck?

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ursvamp
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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 22 2021, 18:30

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
did you forget that Shredders have the Blast rule? Arguably, this makes them superior to most flamers.

They do? I had completey missed/or forgotten about that!=D That's Great!
(Hopefully they'll still have it in the new book. But it seems like such a recent change that it would be fair to expect them to, right?)

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Personally, I'm much more mind boggled by S2 Splinter Rifles.
I mean... what the heck?

Strength value on splinter is very intriguing. So Mysterious!
It's such a great teaser, 'cause it says clearly that -something- has changed, but is vague enough to possibly mean anything from "no actual change in how the rule plays out" to "I can't belive they did this".
I'm very curious to find out what it is.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 22 2021, 18:48

@ursvamp wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:
did you forget that Shredders have the Blast rule? Arguably, this makes them superior to most flamers.

They do? I had completey missed/or forgotten about that!=D That's Great!
(Hopefully they'll still have it in the new book. But it seems like such a recent change that it would be fair to expect them to, right?)

I'm quite out of the loop, but there was an official list of weapons which became "Blast" at the start of 9th edition. See: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/40k-9th-blast-weapons-official-chart.jpg

I don't think they would remove it since then.

@ursvamp wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Personally, I'm much more mind boggled by S2 Splinter Rifles.
I mean... what the heck?

Strength value on splinter is very intriguing. So Mysterious!
It's such a great teaser, 'cause it says clearly that -something- has changed, but is vague enough to possibly mean anything from "no actual change in how the rule plays out" to "I can't belive they did this".
I'm very curious to find out what it is.

I think they just gave it S2 so that they can just say "always wounds non-vehicles on a 4+" (and skip the "wounds vehicles on a 6+" part). I wish I could believe that GW will surprise us with something creative... it just strikes me as bizarre.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 22 2021, 20:02

Honestly, I have never fielded a shredder in a game. Been playing for 5 years. 18" range will not change this, but maybe some new "super doctrine" type stuff will?
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 12:05

Wow, the whining in this forum just got extremely high with no reasons.
Personally +6" range is what the Shredders needed to shine. Nothing else. It is an anti-mob gun, a super good one. When the meta will see more Hordes, we will play more Shredders. That's it.

It is a super good buff, that's all.

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harlokin
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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 14:06

@Cerve wrote:
Wow, the whining in this forum just got extremely high with no reasons.

Well, then it's just as well you are always ready and willing to polish any turd.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 15:34

@Cerve wrote:
what the Shredders needed to shine.......
It is a super good buff

I think we have totally differing views on what is "Super Good" and what makes something "Shine".

Never accept mediocrity, much less claim it is amazing.

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ursvamp
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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 16:17

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
what the Shredders needed to shine.......
It is a super good buff

I think we have totally differing views on what is "Super Good" and what makes something "Shine".

Never accept mediocrity, much less claim it is amazing.


Well... isn't the point of this thread to discuss what we think about the shredder? I think it's pretty harsh to claim someone else's point of view as wrong (as in claiming that something they see as good is objectively "mediocre") just because their evaluation doesn't align with one's own.
(Especially in this case, since we haven't seen any of the special rules (new or kept) that the shredder will have, making any claim as to its worth practically unfounded and nothing but speculation)

((Oh, and also in a game where so much of our view of somethings effectiveness, and even how the game is played in general, is often shaped by the local meta, or the friend group we are used to playing with/against))

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 16:44

As it stands...the only way I see myself taking a Shredder is if Kabs get 2 special weapons per five dudes and it's priced between 5-8 points. A Shredder/Blaster Kab combo in a Venom could be an okay take all comers combo at a reasonable price.

...of course if the Death Guard weapons changes also apply to DE, you might be forced to take a Shredder should you be limited to one Blaster per unit.

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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 17:03

Hmm, what would it take to make us happy with the Shredder?

Getting a "-1AP" doctrine similar to Marines would make me consider this weapon. Especially since the Dark Lance update makes me think that will be our primary Anti-Tank weapon once the Codex drops (so glad I didnt rip the Lances off my Ravagers!)
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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 17:15

For me, I'd like to see it either become a flamer weapon or else have a more reliable number of shots.

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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 17:29

@fisheyes wrote:
Hmm, what would it take to make us happy with the Shredder?

Getting a "-1AP" doctrine similar to Marines would make me consider this weapon. Especially since the Dark Lance update makes me think that will be our primary Anti-Tank weapon once the Codex drops (so glad I didnt rip the Lances off my Ravagers!)

Completely seriously, the only change I really wanted to the Shredder was an increase in range because 12" gave me heart palpitations and the actual stats and abilities on it are already solid for tearing through light infantry. So while I'm not exactly jumping for joy I'm personally pretty satisfied with the change.

It's also making me think about overall list compositions, combined with other changes to weapons that we know about. If Dark Lances are looking like they might be preferable to Blasters, and Splinter Cannons vaguely fill a MEQ-killing role, it could be that Kabal-heavy TAC lists might work with Shredder Kabalites in Venoms backed up by Dark Lance Ravagers. Way too early to do anything other than throw that out as a very tentative suggestion, though.


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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 17:31

Hmm, I think the odds of it being Flamer are roughly 0%.

Reliable # of shots should be possible. Like Catachan re-rolling the # of shots on their tanks.

Honestly, more re-rolls or +1 to hit/wound would also work wonders. But they could make other weapons even more betterer (looking at you Dark Lance), so be careful what we wish for Wink
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harlokin
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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 17:40

For me, the biggest problem with the Shredder was that it competed with the Blaster option.

The former was always a very good anti infantry weapon in an army with that quality in an abundance, while the latter bolstered the anti vehicle capability that Drukhari tended to struggle with.

The Shredder is improved, but I'm not sure whether it offers much that is really needed.

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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 18:55

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
For me, I'd like to see it either become a flamer weapon or else have a more reliable number of shots.

If it retains Blast, it has reliable shots against the kind of units you want to be firing at. Minimum 3 or 6 shots of units of 6 or 11+? That is pretty reliable, and remember you can always roll higher. If it is keeping its price tag of 5 points, it is a pretty good weapon and far weapon on the platforms that actually take it (Scourge) because of the extra range. I have been rolling with Shredder scourge now and the extra 6'' is very welcomed.

Consider the "turd" polished. A straight 6'' to range without knowledge of anything else is a straight buff and good for us. If it retains the same rules it is better than it was before and more feasible for Scourge because of the range. No longer will you "zoned" out by Infilitrators and now you are protected from counter chargers more effectively. Fire and fade opens up more possibilities as well.
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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 19:04

I don't remember what the new blast rule is... I think it garuntees a minimum number of shots based on the unit size the weapon is shooting at ... but then why keep the shredder at D6 shots? I'm glad the shredder went up to 18" range, im now definitely considering using it in my lists, And on a side note about the strength on splinter weapons, having a strength ... if poison was originally supposed to be "Poison: add +2 to the wound roll for this weapon" that would mean splinter rifles would have been better now against t3 chaff and the same versus everything else and splinter cannons would be better against t4 and the same against everything tougher ... I would actually like that change to the poison rule...
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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 20:11

@harlokin wrote:
For me, the biggest problem with the Shredder was that it competed with the Blaster option.

The former was always a very good anti infantry weapon in an army with that quality in an abundance, while the latter bolstered the anti vehicle capability that Drukhari tended to struggle with.

It still has strength 6. Shooting D6 shots strength 6 ap -1 damage 1 instead of 1 shot strength 8 ap -4 d6 damage at a Ravager is actually similar effective, against a venom only slightly worser. So I used it quite often. In mirror matches or against Harlequins it was definitely the better choice, but I agree the higher range is nothing I really needed.
In addition with the new Necrons against most of their vehicles the only difference between a shredder or a blaster is either +1 to wound or -1 to save roll, thanks to quantum shields or containment field. As the blaster did not get the dark light buff and the shredder will be more flexible and maybe even cheaper, I think the shredder seems to be more often the better choice at least in my local meta.

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harlokin
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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 20:32

@Koldan wrote:
@harlokin wrote:
For me, the biggest problem with the Shredder was that it competed with the Blaster option.

The former was always a very good anti infantry weapon in an army with that quality in an abundance, while the latter bolstered the anti vehicle capability that Drukhari tended to struggle with.

It still has strength 6. Shooting D6 shots strength 6 ap -1 damage 1 instead of 1 shot  strength 8 ap -4 d6 damage at a Ravager is actually similar effective, against a venom only slightly worser. So I used it quite often. In mirror matches or against Harlequins  it was definitely the better choice, but I agree the higher range is nothing I really needed.
In addition with the new  Necrons against most of their vehicles the only difference between a shredder or a blaster is either +1 to wound or -1 to save roll, thanks to quantum shields or containment field. As the blaster did not get the dark light buff and the shredder will be more flexible and maybe even cheaper, I think the shredder seems to be more often the better choice at least in my local meta.

That's an interesting analysis, thanks. Do you think that Shredders are a better bet than Blasters against SM too? I would guess the increasing incidence of -1 damage abilities is a further advantage of Shedders over Blasters.

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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 20:44

Another thing I think should be noted is without any changes to poison and the cannon being shifted to a lower number of shots we might actually need the anti-infantry of the shredder more than pre 9th ed codex.

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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 21:01

I've been running shredder scourges since the points drop and I've got no complaints. Against squads of 11+ models, 24 guaranteed str 6, AP -1, and re-roll to wound is very reliable. Much, much better at killing infantry than a venom and for a little cheaper too.

Now it is even better.

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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 21:37

@harlokin wrote:


That's an interesting analysis, thanks. Do you think that Shredders are a better bet than Blasters against SM too? I would guess the increasing incidence of -1 damage abilities is a further advantage of Shedders over Blasters.

For SM depends on the units, in my local meta the most active marine player is a space wolf player who  is really fond of thunderwolves and storm shields. Against him definitely shredders, but against marine vehicles I can actually see a real difference in favour for blasters.  
Still for anyone playing mostly against toughness 1-6 or maybe even 8 with a good invuln I would suggest trying out the shredder as a cheaper blaster.
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PostSubject: Re: The Shredder change boggles my mind.   The Shredder change boggles my mind. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 23 2021, 22:55

For the reference, some simple mathhammer:

MEQ:
- Blasters: 1.01
- Blasters (on marines with -1 to damage): 0.92
- Shredders: 1.03

TEQ with 5++:
- Blasters: 0.92
- Blasters (on marines with -1 to damage): 0.80
- Shredders: 0.69

Gravis:
- Blasters: 1.11
- Blasters (on marines with -1 to damage): 0.96
- Shredders: 1.03

GEQ:
- Blasters: 0.55
- Shredders: 1.89

Rhino:
- Dark Lance: 2.22
- Blasters: 1.55
- Shredders: 0.33

Mind you, Shredders have Blast and do +14% damage against units with 4+ models and +70% damage against 11+.

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