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 Feeling envy...

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DevilDoll
Wych
DevilDoll

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PostSubject: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 24 2021, 11:58

OK after the last previews with those amazing looking vampires I realised something:
What bothers me is not the fact that we don't get new stuff, but the fact that they release new stuff for others that are amazingly good looking and we get left behind . Don't get me wrong we still have a relatively nice line compared to some other factions but man I still remember when my friend brought his shiny new army of deathguard to the table which were not particularly well painted but the models looked so good and a huge upgrade in skulpting quality compared to mine that I felt jealous...
In other words I wouldn't be so bothered if everyone else was on the same boat but that huge gap in quality mainly in their mothership game of 40k is what bothers me the most...
Anyone else having this feeling..?

P. S. How the hell can someone look at those vampires and then at lelith with those awful hobbit feet and ridiculous muscles and not feel jealous..?
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Soulless Samurai
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 24 2021, 13:59

No, I also feel the same way.

Comparing the proportions on that female vampire to Loleth Hamsticks was extremely irritating.

It shows that they clearly have the capacity to make nice models, but when it comes to DE they either choose not to or else simply can't be arsed.

It was a similar issue with Phoenix Rising - where you could clearly see the lack of any interest or effort on the part of any designers involved.

I think you can also see this in other aspects of model releases. I mean, our codex is meant to be next, right? And so far the only model previewed is the aforementioned Loleth Hamsticks. So what 40k model do GW choose to show off in this preview? Why, it's the SoB Dreadknight that absolutely no one asked for. Obviously. Neutral

In other words, our codex hasn't even been released at this point and yet GW are already so uninvested that they've already switched do doing reveals for the imperial factions that'll follow. Boy, this sure does encourage me that GW has put real thought and effort into our codex, rather than making yet another lazy copy-paste so they can get back to writing codices for the factions they actually care about. Rolling Eyes

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fisheyes
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 25 2021, 12:38

TBF, the new plastic Incubi and Drazhar are far superior to the older resin dudes from 5th edition *glares at resin incubi sitting on painting table*

I dont know much about fantasy/AoS, but maybe they have given the sculptor more freedom on the newer stuff? Honestly, I feel that the DE range is better than 90% of the stuff out there. Even the new Primaris stuff is mostly mono-pose and incredibly difficult/arduous to convert (but looks amazing if you dont have multiples)

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Kalmah
Sybarite
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 25 2021, 13:47

for my part, our line of product more than satisfy me.
Our 3 lines of product are amazing, be it Wyches, Kabal or Coven (or Mecenary).
If we can just have an update on our Resin models i'll be more than happy!

The newly revealed vampires are good looking, but not THAT MUCH if you ask me.
Note that they will make good conversion parts for Archons and/or Succubus if we can just figure out how to include a gun in their hands.

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Silverglade
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 25 2021, 14:51

I'm on the same page as fisheyes and Kalmah in terms of our models. I have very little to complain about. RULES wise we have room for grip. Very Happy

Certainly there are exceptions (Disco Grotesque... i'm looking at you). And certainly it's gotten better as they steadily move things into plastic from Finecast.

Our kabalite warriors and wyches are some of the most flexible builds in terms of the armies i play. I also love that they mix and match so easily with craftworld bits so we have many additional options and ways to build.

Our Scourges, mandrakes, incubi and hellions are all fantastic from a model perspective.

I don't feel as negatively about lileth as others seem to. But willing to say that that sculpt is not what it could have been. I have the finecast Lileth already, so don't need the new one. But I will likely buy her anyway just to model and paint her.

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albions-angel
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 25 2021, 15:04

There is something to be said for the AoS models though. I got some Wyches for christmas, and also my first Start Collecting box of Sylvaneth. The Sylvaneth models are older as AoS armies go. But here is the thing. The plastic itself is different to the 40k plastic in the Wyches box. Wyches are a light grey, and the plastic is soft. You can "fold" a sprue almost in half without it snapping. The AoS plastic is darker, slightly shiny, and snaps at about the 90 degree point. I would have assumed its the same manufacturing process for both lines but...

Now, that might just be coincidence. Perhaps I got 2 boxes from 2 different factories, or even 2 different batches. But there is something else too. Something I have seen echoed on the forums.

40k models seem to be "fully posable". Its all ball sockets and such. The upside is you get a massive variety of models to make without having to modify or kitbash (lets be honest, GW SHOULD be catering to the lowest common denominator - 12 year olds with no access to craft knives - anyone with a craft knife can make any pose they want regardless of ball sockets). The downside is some of the angles and body shapes prohibit some limbs and heads from fitting properly.

But AoS models seem to be, not quite snap fit, but "single pose" and "fully interchangable". Certainly that was true for my sylvaneth. The limbs tend to only fit in one way (with a small amount of wiggle room). Same with the heads. Bodies of small models are largely one piece. Sounds boring, right? Except take a box of Dryads.

A box of Dryads makes 16 Dryads. But really its 4 identical Sprues, each sprue fully capable of making 4 dryads. There are 4 body/leg poses. But there are 7 heads. And 6 sets of arms. And 5 back pieces. And a whole other pair of arms for the squad leader. And all of them are fully interchangable. So there are 7*4 body/head combinations alone. And 5*4 body/back piece combinations. But those choices are independent. So thats already (7*4)*(5*4) = (28)*(20) = 560 possible combinations. Then there are the 6 sets of arms. So thats another 6*4 sets of combinations independent of the above. Except thats not true, because every right arm is independent of every left arm. So its actually 6*4*6*4 = 576 combinations of just arms and bodies. Plus another 1 for the leaders special arms. So 577. 577 body/arm combos combined with 560 body/head/back combos is 323,120. And that makes 16 dryads (or 15 dryads and a nymph). So in each box of 16 dryads, despite there being a fixed set of poses, there are still 20,195 ways of making them.

Ok, the actual number is significantly less than that, because you only have, across all 4 sprues, 4 Head As and 4 Right Arm Cs. So you cant make all 16 identical, for example, but the number is still pretty damn high, and the poses are very dynamic.

Now this does have a downside when it comes to the big models. Without serious modification, every Treelord Ancient has the same pose. Every Everqueen is identical. But then most big non-unique models make 2 or 3 variants (treelords can be treelords, treelord ancients, or spirits of thingamy) and NEARLY ALL THOSE PARTS ARE INTERCHANGABLE TOO, so your TLA can have the TL pose, or a mix of both!

Meanwhile I am over here with my Drukhari trying to make a kabalite's gun both sit in its left hand AND sit nicely against its breastplate without its boobs knocking the rifle away. Meanwhile I clearly didnt hold the head long enough as it was gluing as it has slipped to the side again, giving them a permanently confused look.

While I am at it, a personal gripe is how detailed out models are. "But Albion, is that not a good thing?" Absolutely. But somehow they are so detailed that they are next to impossible to paint once assembled, but so damn fiddly that painting them unassembled takes an age and a half. Sure, the TLA from my sylvaneth also had to be painted unassembled, but it was in 5 big parts (head, chest, arm1, arm2, legs). But that really is a personal issue as I dont have the steadiest hands and I cant get my brushes under the guns or behind the heads without them becoming coated in whatever is on my brush at the time...

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Koldan
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 25 2021, 15:46

@albions-angel wrote:
There is something to be said for the AoS models though.
What you describe is not AoS vs 40k, it is new kit vs old kit.
The philosophy changed maybe even the plastic itself. I remember Warhammer Fantasy Chaos Knight boxes, that were basically just the upper bodies of the chaos warrior box plus the horses of an imperial knight box plus some metal pieces to replace the horse head and to have legs that can be put on a horse and don't look weird with a chaos warrior torso on them. The design philosophy changed, now every model has to work alone, flexibility is not that important anymore.


And for the topic, I feel the same. I already play Drukhari a little longer already and seeing some really good models for other factions and then realizing it could be that we maybe get something new in 15th edition, gets me envious. 15th edition is just calculated by 2 finecast kits replaced every edition and the assumption that GW would only design a new Drukhari unit after all finecast ones are replaced.
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Soulless Samurai
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 25 2021, 16:45

I feel I should clarify that I do like most of our 5th edition era models.

Notwithstanding the difficulties albions-angel brought up (yeah, getting guns into position is almost always a pain - as is trying to pain the model's chest afterwards), I think they strike a pretty good balance in terms of being reasonably detailed and being reasonably customisable and interchangeable.

It's mainly our newer characters that strike me as being very low-effort. You've got the potato-headed Archon in the most boring pose imaginable, you've got the aforementioned Littlefish Hamchops. Oh and, lest we forget, you've got Drazhar, who looks just like a Klaivex with a bit more bling. Hell, I think more thought went into the stupid rock he's standing on than the guy himself.

Each to their own, of course, but when I look at what is being done with other factions I just can't see any of our recent characters as being shining examples of effort, flavour, or modelling.


All that saidI think albions-angel does bring up a very interesting point with regard to customisation/interchangeability and potential trade-offs. With the exception of Scourges, the older DE kits were definitely limited in terms of poses. There wasn't a huge difference in the leg positions of Kabalites, for example, and if your model has any sort of rifle then there's really only one way they can hold it.

I don't think this is especially bad, but I can see it being noticeable when you compare them to other kits. To use albions-angel's Sylvaneth example, I bought some Tree-Spites a while back to use for my (currently stalled) DE Daemons project. However, whilst it wasn't my intended use, I couldn't help but notice how many options and poses they had. Even accounting for the fact that they could be built as one of two units, there was still a plethora of spare weapons. Also, the different poses of their feet and the design of the weapons/claws allowed for a substantial number of different poses, almost all of which seemed natural and usually dynamic as well.

Of course, the consequence of this is that it's a lot harder to mix and match parts from different kits without heavy conversion work. Still, I'll say Sylvaneth has definitely warmed me to that particular trade-off.

(Not that I think our old kits are in any great need of an update - especially compared with the multitude of units and wargear that we've lost or with the Craftworld units that are old enough to drink. Just saying I can definitely understand those who, if such an update should ever happen, might be in favour of trading some degree of cross-compatibility for more potential poses within the same kit.)

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ursvamp
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 25 2021, 17:48

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
I feel I should clarify that I do like most of our 5th edition era models.
/.../
It's mainly our newer characters that strike me as being very low-effort.

The thing I really like about the Archon and Succubi kits is tht they play into one of the strengths of the model line; the customisability and cross-kit compatability.
Both of those models give a body that stands out just enough, and allows you to combine heads and arms from most of the range, in order to create a character to your specific tastes.
For example, I too am not very fond of head that comes with the archon (it always stood out like a sore thumb on the 5ed codex cover, to me). But I really like the Succubi-head, with her intricate hair bun, that I put on it instead, or using the plastic Klaivex head to make it more reminiscent of the old metal sculpt, which I really love)
Now if they could just give our HQs more fun options, to really take advantage of the custom-opportunities, that would be great...

To the original topic, I would also like to see some new, interesting unit for us (of course!)
But I painted up two new raiders last week, and man. I just got to say those are such fantastic designs and sculpts, I'm more impressed now than I even was 10 years ago when they came out.
(also, are they one of the only transports in the game that are to scale?)

Anyway. TOtally get the envy thing (I'm right there with you). Wish I could say somehing encouraging.
But at least we've some Great models in whatwe have. (<3  )

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Squidmaster
Klaivex
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 26 2021, 09:28

I have to admit, I've felt th same way.
DUring past editions I;ve watched every other faction gets new stuff, and Drukhari not. New characters have come along, and Drukhari lost theirs. Every faction got a Lord of War, Drukhari still haven't (and Harlequins). It seems the trend is that every facrion is now getting access to a terrain piece. Drukhari haven't (and I don't count generic Eldar pieces that lok designed specifically for Craftworlds).
And it does grate a little when new model previews start focusing on the releases AFTER Drukhari. Right now we're seeing Dark Angels stuff (no new models just for them, which is a shame) and now new Sisters? Even though Drukhari are next after Dark Angels?
I don't mind the new Lilith, I really don't, but I suppose it doesn't help that the current rules set essentially makes Wych Cults an entirely different faction to my Kabalite force.
Ugh. Sorry. Ramvbling. Saw the chance and took it.
Here's hoping there's SOMETHING coming (though no rumour engines I would say match us at all.)

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amishprn86
Archon
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 26 2021, 13:44

I've been feeling it sense our 6th edition codex. This is not anything new for me No Crying or Very sad

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Burnage
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 26 2021, 15:54

I have a feeling that the model designers who like creating elf-y characters have been moved to work on Age of Sigmar. The Triumvirate of Ynnead was great but they were released nearly four years ago and since then there've been, what, five Eldar character models released or announced - none of which were actually that impressive visually.

Meanwhile the elf and vampire models in Sigmar have been, in general, knocking it out of the park.
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Archon_91
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 26 2021, 18:42

It definitely feels that way ... I keep seeing the elf and vampire releases and thinking "that wouldn't look out of place in a druhkari army" ... and it really highlights the potential for great model design ... that we havent see in our new model releases
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amishprn86
Archon
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 26 2021, 23:53

No no no... we get the new B rated Vampire that is our Archon, what a crap model.

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GreyArea
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 27 2021, 11:01

I agree with the sentiment that there is lots of potential for more models.

- As others have mentioned, characters in the lore could make for some beautifully imaginative models if GW was to turn their gaze our way.
- There's a ton of potential for coven monsters and cult beasts.
- The conversion of finecast mandrakes to plastic is one I'm particularly excited about!
- I also think expanding our vehicle range with some kind of necron command barge style unit would be very fitting for our extravagant archons.
- A specialised Kabalite sniper unit
- Mandrake assassin character/unit

Also, I have to make the obligatory "VECT" sounding cough...

However, I also think that, with a few exceptions (mostly finecast), the average sculpt quality of our range is above almost all other factions. Especially given its age.

I guess in summary, I'm far more envious of other factions battlefield role diversity than I am of their model quality.
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Soulless Samurai
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 27 2021, 13:44

@GreyArea wrote:
I guess in summary, I'm far more envious of other factions battlefield role diversity than I am of their model quality.

Oh, I absolutely agree with this.

Hell, I'd be happy just having more unit entries even with no models at all. At least I'd be able to convert the models myself.


I think it's just that when we've spent decade losing models, it adds insult to injury when the only models we do get have worse sculpts than the models they replaced.

But yeah, I agree that diversity of available units/roles is far more of a problem for us than our getting the arse-end of sculpts in recent years.

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the_scotsman
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 16 2021, 12:59

This is one reason I'm massively grateful to have found Edge Miniatures just before the codex launched. Such a relief that during my surge in interest in growing my dark eldar, I found a 3d printing patreon that not only

-matches the sculpt quality of GW (surpassing it in some of their sculpts IMO)
-only focuses on dark eldar, not one or two sculpts here and there with mostly marines/krieg
-not only that but focuses on Covens, the criminally undersupported third of the dark eldar model range

Hyper-customizable talos pain engines so that they can not only look different but wildly, massively different?

Wracks with actual poses, actually running, walking, aiming ranged weaponry thank the freaking lord, and there's female wrack poses?

A whole board worth of dark eldar terrain I can have my friend with a plastic printer make me?

Fantastic. excellent.
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fisheyes
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 16 2021, 13:05

Just bought a few boxes of the new Incubi revamp. Those models are killer, way better than the Resin models from the 5th edition re-vamp.

But all-in-all I am still pretty happy with our stuff. We are still more dynamic than most model ranges (wyches are still really cool). If I was a Craftworld player, my opinion would probably be different...

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Vailex
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 16 2021, 14:29

Im happy with the older incubi. They dont look much different. And mine are metal Smile
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 16 2021, 17:29

I hate metal models.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 16 2021, 18:05

I think the plastic models we have are still gorgeous for the most part. I do agree with Soulless Samurai though that the few new models we have had are a good indication of our place in the pecking order. The plastic Haemonculus, Wracks and Incubi were okay. Then we have a ridiculously poor Archon that even GW don't use in a lot of the model pictures for us and Lelith that was roundly laughed at due to the 'promotional' pictures released of her that disproved the notion that there's no such thing as bad publicity. The fact that we also still have large chunks of our army that are monopose failcast is also not good.

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 17 2021, 22:25

I didn't emjoy painting the new Archon. And the base its ridiculously short on detail. Like a lazy ass job.

But, on the other hand, I own 10,000 points of craftworlders. No resin, and I have ALL the aspect warriors. And 16 warlocks (oh how I miss having them as upgrades for units...

Oh, and all the Phoenix Lords. And the GODDAMN Avatar. I have the Forgeworld one too, but... Really, GW? It's an iconic unit literally abandoned.
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AzraeI
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 18 2021, 22:37

The thing I don't get is the inconsistency

They made the Incubi and Drazhar "Eldar-looking", but The Howling Banshees, Jain Zar and Lelith are so chonky.
Then they make two over the top bikini bdsm armies for AoS, and we get nothing of that flair.

But that's probably because AoS is like the Netflix prequel show to a Movie franchise. Nobody cares about it.
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harlokin
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PostSubject: Re: Feeling envy...    Feeling envy...  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 19 2021, 19:32

@fisheyes wrote:
Just bought a few boxes of the new Incubi revamp. Those models are killer, way better than the Resin models from the 5th edition re-vamp.

I agree 100%, the new Incubi are great. You even get a fair amount of spare stuff on the sprues for kitbashing projects.

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