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ferrusmanus
Hellion
ferrusmanus

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PostSubject: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 14 2021, 07:54

I don't know if have calculated in the right way all point after faq, I have assumed the venom as 65pt with basic load, and only the second splinter cannon add ten point.

Raiding Force, 12 CP

1 Patrol, dark tencomancer, Masters of Mutagens

Haemonculus, liquifier gun, elettrocorrosive whip 95
5 wrach, 2 liquifier gun 60 pt
venom 65pt
5 wrach, 2 liquifier gun 60 pt
venom 65pt
5 wrach, 2 liquifier gun 60 pt
venom 65pt

Raider,  disintegrator cannon 90pt
3 talos, haywire cannon 330pt
Reaper 170pt


1 patrol, Test of Skill, Slashing Impact

Succubus Shardnet and impaler   60pt
5 witch 50pt
1 BeastMaster 40pt
8 Razorwing Flock (not count in detchacment) 96pt
7 Razorwing Flock (not count in detchacment)   84pt
6 Reavers   60pt
6 Reavers, 2 heat lance 80pt


1 Patrol, dark tencomancer, Masters of Mutagens
Haemonculus, liquifier gun, elettrocorrosive whip 95
Master regenerist, The Nightmare doll
5 wrach, 2 liquifier gun 60 pt
venom 65pt
5 wrach, 2 liquifier gun 60 pt
venom 65pt
5 wrach, 2 liquifier gun 60 pt
venom 65pt

2000 total point

Hi to all, better than this i cannot build in my mind a list.
Doing some test with necron and blood angels, and work well, especially versus c'tan (eviscerating fly-by shoot, charge slascing impact, and melee are different source of damage).

Thee liquifier gun perform very very well with new faq, i can sacrify 3 wrach until doing damage to gunner man.
The venom  Masters of Mutagens reduce a litte the damage taken with rolling 1 to wound, they outperform my initial tought.
Razorwing Flock are a perfect screen, reliable and fast.
thanks to all for any comment
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fisheyes
Incubi
fisheyes

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 14 2021, 20:14

I believe you are incorrect with regards to the Venom point cost. As I understand (supposedly written on the first page of the document), you have to pay for that weapon if it is an option.

Luckily, you are overpaying for the Haemonculi. The Electrocorrosive whip and gun are now both free.

Honestly, I expected more Reavers with the (obviously wrong) 10pt cost.

Now that every wound roll of 1 causes you a MW, you still think that Venoms are the best transport? I am currently toying with running 6 Dark Technomancer Raiders. +1 to wound and flat 3 Damage basically makes it a whole different animal.

Thank you for posting a list! I am always curious to see how other people see things.
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amishprn86
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amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 14 2021, 20:17

I think it is correct, all units so far are base points and options has the cost, anything without an option has no cost.

They are 75pts

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Last edited by amishprn86 on Sat Jan 16 2021, 17:46; edited 1 time in total
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 14 2021, 20:23

Honestly, if we are going to use the current Wrack and Reaver costs, I dont feel bad about paying a little extra on some Venoms
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 14 2021, 22:21

For your overall list so we don't get into that argument.

It is fine, but personally I don't think Talos are worth it in DT at all.

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ferrusmanus
Hellion
ferrusmanus

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 15 2021, 23:57

thanks for the response.
the talos are useful because make d3 mortal wound on vehicles on 5+ with DT.
they are solid and with so many target i have found that some melee thread make the opponent more...nervous about frontal charge Smile
Good i change the point for the homunculus..i won't build about a reavers spam detachment i think is a mistake 10pt for them.
For the venom they make 1 wound themself in one shooting phase..i think this wound is exancagle for all  hit for 2 damage and wound the veicles on 5+..i have found it very useful in one round with 6 venom (and wrack inside with liqui) i have killed The silend king and four Necron Wraiths.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 16 2021, 17:49

I have played Talos for over a year as DT and they just don't do much IMO. With as little vehicles there are now and many able to get -1 (Mostly Aeldari has them or a couple Rhinos and then Obscuring or Woods, etc..) hitting on 4+/5+ with 12 shots on thats only 6/4 hits. So you are forgoing a +1 invul to deal 2 or 3 more MW's.

Also remember that DT is now 1 MW or every 1 roll, just becareful on your Venom's.

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Oaka
Kabalite Warrior
Oaka

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 16 2021, 23:44

I agree on the lack of vehicles in the game right now. I'm not playing against any, and I keep trying to convince my opponent to use the Silent King just so I can haywire the crap out of it.
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ferrusmanus
Hellion
ferrusmanus

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 17 2021, 01:44

for Dt talos..i have the feeling they can work well, in my region meta there are many vehicles.
I have tried two reaper but the random d6 roll of number of shot make it not reliable.
Putting only one reaper so i can use the statagem reroll for it, is more...reliable.
indeed the talot POF are better but..i can use a detachment for it..or i need to drop 3 unit of wrack is a big problem for the list.
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sekac
Wych
sekac

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 17 2021, 21:34

I'm a huge fan of DT Talos, but they're much better with twin-liquifiers as well as haywire. They're good for all the reasons that they are with DT wracks, except it's double the shots for the same maximum 1 mortal wound, AND it can be used in close combat. It's like a chain flail and scalpel put together.

*Edit* I somehow missed the new DT ruling. I don’t particularly like Talos with that in mind. Haywires are pretty good and the ceiling is outrageous, but don't on average seem to shift games. There are just too many variables. The twin-liqs really took their reliable damage to the extreme, but aren't worth the risk now.

At this point, I think if you take Talos at all, it should probably just be PoF. Though I could also see an Artists of the Flesh minimal patrol with 6 Talos.


Last edited by sekac on Tue Jan 19 2021, 07:07; edited 1 time in total
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 18 2021, 13:02

Battlescribe updated points over the weekend, we can now use that as a "unifying" point cost document
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Dreadblizzaard
Hellion
Dreadblizzaard

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 19 2021, 04:06

10 point reavers?! Ah, well, ah...if this isn't a mistake, oh boy! They've always been my favorite unit and doing this will really make them worth taking again...

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 19 2021, 13:06

Generally GW has been pretty good about fixing obvious errors within a few weeks (so long as its not Iron Hands XD).

Enjoy your 10pt Reavers and 20 man 8pt Wracks for a few more days/weeks. I am sure the nerf-bat is already on route
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ferrusmanus
Hellion
ferrusmanus

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 19 2021, 13:27

i think the wrack with only one wound could be possible a 8 point definitive ruling.
For the reavers, indeed is an error Very Happy
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 19 2021, 16:57

I played a list with 120 of those 8 pt Wracks to get a feel for the new unit size and cost (on TTS, no way I have that many wracks IRL).

T5, 4++/6+++, with Black Cornucopians resurrecting and teleporting units around was awesomely OP. If you play on Tabletop, I highly recommend taking that list for a spin.

I will not run it again, because it is just too OP. I am sure there are people out there in highly competitive METAs where that would be OK.

Thats my $0.02.
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ferrusmanus
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ferrusmanus

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 19 2021, 17:06

i play in a group of min-max every list.
so i think even 120 wrack can be annihilated in one round, i see 30 orc scarboiys with S 5 doing ridiculus number of attach and my friend usually play with 90 orcs..or the IG player with 150 infantry.
Even one unit of death company with chaplain can remove 20 wrack in one round.
Not counting the necron player with a firepower very impressive.
I'll do a try with your list thanks for the hint Smile
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Oaka
Kabalite Warrior
Oaka

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 19 2021, 17:53

Assuming liquifiers go up to 12" range, I still think a unit of Dark Techno Grotesques in a screaming jets raider could be worth it, even if they do kill one of themselves in the process. It would be funny if we get an obsession that ignores MWs on a 5+ like Necrons.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 19 2021, 23:07

@ferrusmanus wrote:
i play in a group of min-max every list.
so i think even 120 wrack can be annihilated in one round, i see 30 orc scarboiys with S 5 doing ridiculus number of attach and my friend usually play with 90 orcs..or the IG player with 150 infantry.
Even one unit of death company with chaplain can remove 20 wrack in one round.
Not counting the necron player with a firepower very impressive.
I'll do a try with your list thanks for the hint Smile

They only kill 14 Wracks if every model can attack and that is without -1 to be hit. So its not as bad as you think given its 30 8pt models vs 20 8pts models. And there is no way all 90 charges turn 1 or even able to charge 2 vs 1 unit. Now you can spend 2 CP and gain all 20 back. Necrons don't have T5, thats a huge difference, Orks will kill 23 in 1 go against Necrons, that is a 9 wound difference, and then not counting the 6+++.

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Last edited by amishprn86 on Wed Jan 20 2021, 14:48; edited 1 time in total
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 20 2021, 12:25

@amishprn86 hit the nail on the head. It is very hard to get enough stuff in range to wipe a 20 man wrack squad. Even if they do kill one, it generally takes A LOT of the armies firepower to do, which means that the other 100 wracks are moving into position unmolested (dont forget Fire and Fade for that extra 7" movement).

For only 160 pts, 20 wracks are one of the toughest units in the game (IMO). They dont do an amazing amount of damage (but it is respectable), but they will win games from playing missions.

Honestly, I think the Wracks are as good as 10pt Reavers (but I have not played with the Reavers, so maybe I am underestimating them)

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sekac
Wych
sekac

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 21 2021, 00:43

Yeah there aren't lists that can kill 120 wracks in a turn. Ignoring FNP, that's 240 wounding hits. Agasint T5, that means 480 strength 5 hits!

If you're playing in a group where multiple armies are dishing out somewhere between 500 and 600 strength 5 attacks per turn, then no game would ever last more than half a turn. You could deploy, roll to see who goes first, congratulate them on winning, and pack up.

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Cerve
Hekatrix
Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 21 2021, 07:07

Any competitive BA will destroy that list anyway
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 21 2021, 10:05

@Cerve wrote:
Any competitive BA will destroy that list anyway

If you sit there and let them charge you all the time and have nothing else sure, but we still have Grots, Vex mask, and Guns. You could still have 3 Ravagers if you want some Marine killing weapons. Now they have to pick what to fight.

Not saying we are countering everything, just you can not ignore the other 1/2 of the army.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 21 2021, 15:02

And dont forget if they only kill 19 models in the squad, suddenly there are 20 dudes teleporting into their back-field, contesting their objectives and pulling down Banners.

120 Wracks are not about killing, its about board control (where the heck are those BA Smash Captains going to land?) and objective contesting.

But I dont play against BA, just WS/RG/UM. Even WS with their 34" movement bikes (2CP strat) cant jump over a line of Wracks advancing/Fire+Fade-ing up the board.
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ferrusmanus
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ferrusmanus

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 21 2021, 16:39

all Assume to use the 2 point stratagem because a test with 19 kill would be a total loss in morale Very Happy

Indeed with one quick test with my friend our 30 orc with 6 attack (gaz and psyker buff) with the rule of every 6 to hit is another hit..would do a total of 210 attack S5..they annihilate 20 wrack in one round.
Every list with some competitive melee remove the wrach..but i haven't done a full list test probably i'll share my result
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Cerve
Hekatrix
Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt list after faq   2000pt list after faq I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 21 2021, 17:24

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Any competitive BA will destroy that list anyway

If you sit there and let them charge you all the time and have nothing else sure, but we still have Grots, Vex mask, and Guns. You could still have 3 Ravagers if you want some Marine killing weapons. Now they have to pick what to fight.

Not saying we are countering everything, just you can not ignore the other 1/2 of the army.

Precisely this! that's the deal. I was talking about 120 Wracks, just too many of them for me.
Something like 60 wracks will be probably better. Let's have more room for some.punch too.
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