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 New Drukhari boxset announced

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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 28 2020, 19:26

@Cerve wrote:
We have a lot.of datasheets already

By what possible measure? Neutral

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 28 2020, 19:44

If they don't address the Hellion, Scourge, Wych situation then second hand market is going to get even better for cheap models.

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JRG
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 28 2020, 19:55

@Amishprn86 - is that referring to increasing their viability in the new Codex?
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 28 2020, 21:52

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
We have a lot.of datasheets already

By what possible measure? Neutral

Just count them. You will be surprised.

I mean EVERY datasheet in the Codex. Immagine a rework in terms of rules for everyone.
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Burnage
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 28 2020, 21:57

@Cerve wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
We have a lot.of datasheets already

By what possible measure? Neutral

Just count them. You will be surprised.

I mean EVERY datasheet in the Codex. Immagine a rework in terms of rules for everyone.

Thirty datasheets really isn't much compared to most factions in the game. Relative to Harlequins, sure, but we're pretty small by most measures.

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Count Adhemar
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Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 28 2020, 21:59

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
We have a lot.of datasheets already

By what possible measure? Neutral

We have a grand total of 30 datasheets. Space Marines have...well I stopped counting after the HQ section of their core codex (ie not including chapter specific stuff) where they have 22 datasheets. So they have nearly as many HQ units as we have total units.

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JRG
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 28 2020, 22:52

Space Marines at this point aren't a single faction anymore. The chapters are now factions, their supplements are nearly the same number of pages as other codexes.

Space Marines really are their own race or major force equal to Xenos over all. Just look at the GW website at how they split the different races/factions. Space Marines are their own section, their codex is pretty much an index and in terms of model releases, Faqs, codex/supplement releases and player base they are equivalent to Xenos as a whole. I think looking at Space Marines as a single faction is a archaic way of viewing the game and I think that is how GW view them; Space Marines are equivalent to all Xenos and so comparing the Space Marines to a single xeno codex will always look imbalanced.

Not how I want to view things but unless there's a drastic change to how GW manages the 40K game I think this is closer to a realistic view.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 28 2020, 23:07

Space Marines doesn't matter....of course doesn't matter, c'mon! They're not really a "single faction".
The Aledari race together is more like what SM are.

30 Datasheets are more than enough. You should compare them with the Necron standard (and I guess new DG incoming).

Just ignore SM, they're a different story. Try to make some comparison with them is naive at best (and not because they're broken, it's just a matter of design).
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ursvamp
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 28 2020, 23:24

@Subsanity wrote:
What are the chance's the scourges are getting some sexy new rules? Consittering there in the box set and GW wants to sell the box set. This may be my silver lining.

That is a very interesting point to raise.
When the Drukhari line was reworked (back in 5th edition), it was done so specifically with kitbashing in mind. In order to make use of the space they had, amounts of kits they could design, etc.
(Most notable for this is the scourge kit, that comes with a lot of special/heavy weapons, including shardcarbines and the only Venom Blade with a universal arm in the entire range.)

Because of that the change in design-/rules-philosophy that went into place in 2014 (beginning with the tyranid codex at the end of 6e) about only making rules/datasheets for units with model support, and only giving units rules and options for wargear supplied in their own kits, hit the Drukhari-line, probably hardest of all (the nids also felt it, but most of their losses was fixed with new models released later that same year). Removing several units, and a lot of interesting options and builds, making one of our signature weapons (venom blade) a unique choice for a heavy weapons-team sergeant, instead of a universal option, Min.size of infantry units becoming 5 (instead of 3 for elite units) also removed a lot of the usefulness of Venoms, etc. (The 7e codex is quite a mess all around, and unfortunately the one that got ported to 8e, and has therefore been the ur-text for drukhari for these last years).

But if they are willing to lean into/embracing the kitbash-possibilities of the drukhari line again (maybe give back warriors/trueborn the options to take carbines again, etc.), that could mean that the scourge kit becomes an important asset, due to its weapon contents, in the future.
Not sure how likely. Just speculating, really.

And, of course, the whole deal with venom blades and shard carbines only being availible through the scourge-kit could change with potential new model releases along side the new codex and such. But even then getting the extra ones from the scourges would probably still be helpful to kit out warriors or wyches with them, if one so wanted.

Sorry for the long rant. I apologize.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 28 2020, 23:47

If Scourges gets the Seraphim treatment then they would for sure be worth their points and playable, thats all i really want TBH.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 29 2020, 00:01

@Cerve wrote:
30 Datasheets are more than enough. You should compare them with the Necron standard

The new Necron codex has 51 datasheets. 30 is less than virtually any other faction and none of them are sub-divided into 3 separate sub-factions, further limiting the unit choices available when picking an army. Are you genuinely satisfied with our huge selection of HQ choices?

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 29 2020, 00:20

@Cerve wrote:
Space Marines doesn't matter....of course doesn't matter, c'mon! They're not really a "single faction".

Why not? Because they completely refute your point?


@Cerve wrote:

30 Datasheets are more than enough. You should compare them with the Necron standard (and I guess new DG incoming).

Okay, I'll compare them with Necrons.

Necrons:
10 Generic HQs (inc. 4 mobile HQ options)
7 Special Character HQs
2 Troop Choices
14 Elites
5 Fast Attack
5 Heavy Support
3 Fliers
1 Lord of War
1 Dedicated Transport
48 Total

Dark Eldar
3 Generic HQs (inc. 0 mobile HQ options)
3 Special characters
3 Troop Choices
8 Elites
6 Fast Attack
3 Heavy Support
2 Fliers
2 Dedicated Transports
30 Total

So Necrons get to have over 50% more dataslates than us and it's not an issue at all, even though we have barely any options in many cases (half our elites are locked behind a specific HQ, and half our fast attack choices are locked behind a specific Elite choice; and on top of that our army is split into 3 subfactions that can't be mixed).

It seriously seems like some people here just want Dark Eldar to stay awful. Neutral

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 29 2020, 00:21

No Legends, yes FW, datasheets;not sure on a few of the units, give or take 2-3 from each one.

Guard - 128
Orks - 59
Tyranids - 50
Necrons 62
GD - 73
Tau - 61
SoB - 29
GSC - 29

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ursvamp
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 29 2020, 00:29

I tend to divide the factions into the ’classic’ ones (the ones that existed with full model support before 7e)

Space Marines (Including Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves)
Astra Militarum
Sisters of Battle
Chaos Space Marines
Daemons
Craftworld Eldar
Orks
Necrons
Tyranids
Dark Eldar(Drukhari)
Tau

and the ’smaller’ ones (which are the new, niche factions released during 7e and 8e)

Adeptus Mechanicus
Harlequins
Genestealer Cults
Imperial Knights
Adeptus Custodes
Thousand Sons
Death Guard
Deathwatch
Ynnari

But I realize that several of the smaller ones might by now, probably, have around the same number of units and models as some of the ones I consider classic. And I totally understand others not sharing my bias ^^
But I would like to see most of the ’classic’ factions get some love this edition=)
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 29 2020, 00:46

Ok then ... setting space Marines aside ... and just off of the other armies I have, 2 are xenos ... and 1 chaos (its daemons and does not include chaos Marines)
Tau have 51 data sheets
11 HQ
3 Troops
11 elites
9 fast attack
9 heavy support
7 flyers
1 Transport

Tyrannids have 45
8 HQ
5 troops
10 elites
8 fast attack
11 heavy support
2 flyers
1 transport

Chaos Daemons ( not chaos marines) have 66 data sheets
40 HQ
5 troops
5 elites
8 fast attack
8 heavy support
So yeah ... even amongst the non space marine codexes we have a very low data sheet count, harlequins are the only ones with a lower count
And just for fun lets take one space marine codex say Space Wolves
Space wolves have 132 data sheets ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
41 HQ
5 troops
32 elites
14 Fast attack
23 heavy supports
7 flyers
10 transports
That is a single Space Marine codex ... they have more HQ choices they we do total choices add troops and they already push out everything I have other than daemons ... 30 data sheets IS! ... NOT! ... ENOUGH! Aelidari have 57 ,choices so ... yeah no comparison as this means the combined force of ynnair has 95 data sheets across 3 codexes ... 3 codexes is still don't match 1 space marine chapter (sorry for the long post)
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 29 2020, 01:34

I'd add another way of looking at it, namely do the current dataslates represent our codex well, present a good selection of units, and offer a reasonable choice in each slot?

(In other words, how does our selection look in complete isolation?)

And I'd argue that it really doesn't do most of those things.
- Swathes of our lore is either underrepresented or not represented at all (we don't have a single mobility option for any of our existing HQs, most units have just a single HQ choice to represent them, and a number of units lack HQ representation altogether). Haemonculi (and the regeneration and exotic modifications they provide) are a core aspect of the Dark City, yet their modifications aren't represented at all, and the Haemonculi themselves are just dull, overpriced aura-caddies. Archons are meant to wield the best weapons and wargear money can buy, yet their options would embarrass a toothless Ork Boy.
- There are no 'lesser' HQs, so Kabals are frequently led by 2 Archons, rather than an Archon and a Dracon.
- Because of the way our codex has been split, we have barely any choice at all. e.g. Kabal has 1 HQ choice (plus a special character), 1 troop choice, 1 fast attack choice, and 1 heavy support choice.
- But even if our codex hadn't been split, there's still minimal choice in many cases - especially when you consider unit roles. As mentioned above, we don't have a single HQ with mobility options, nor any that are effective against vehicles or which provide support in any way beyond 'generic aura bubble #46812'. Of our 8 elites, 1 only exists to unlock certain FA units, and another 4 are contingent on bringing a specific HQ choice, and of those only 1 serves any actual role. There are no mobile units in either our Elites or our Troops, and our Heavy Support doesn't even include an infantry option.


Put simply, regardless of what other factions get, I think it's hard to seriously argue that DE have no need of additional dataslates.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 29 2020, 03:57

In an ideal world our old units would get updated and we'd get new ones. Having only thirty units in our arsenal is pretty bad, but it's made worse by roughly a third of them being virtually useless as well as the tripartite design of our faction.

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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 29 2020, 07:22

We're unquestionably not in a great place regarding datasheets. We often have a single option for a given battlefield role, at most. Being stuck as three micro-codices glued together into one makes the issue all the worse. Ravagers are our only real long-range heavy weapons option. Scourges are our only dedicated special weapons option. Our HQ situation is dire, especially since triple-patrol is apparently going to be the only way to access our entire model range without losing CP - meaning we have to bring all three HQs we have and frankly none of them are good.

Despite being rather long in the tooth by this point I'm not sure I want new models for anything we currently have. After the ChapterHouse lawsuit Games Workshop appear to have shifted their design aesthetics hard toward elaborate monoposes and unique character models, and I don't see a world where they'd make new miniatures that remain so neatly and effectively kitbashable with the rest of our range as what I've grown used to.

What I'd prefer to see is brand new units. I'd even swallow the weird NuGW naming conventions for it. Fine yes whatever call it a Skiyepoisen Chariot if that's what it takes for me to have an HQ with mobility, and I'll be happy to bring the Kopiirited Treydmarqueable Barge to have an alternative to the ravager.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 29 2020, 09:00

Wow, I must say I never tought we were in that bad spot. It feels weird...I never find myself struggle on choices, maybe because I'm against the redundancy. Or maybe because we.still have more.valuable units than others. I mean, SM have 90+ datasheets, and on board you still see, how many...10? 15 choices?
I would prefer to see our existing units get some love (like, 90% of them being competitive) more than having more datasheet but woth 50% (or more) of them still useless.
My bad on numbers guys, I tought 30 data was like the standard. I guess not....but yes, dom't count SM anyway, they're more like a faction per-sè than a single army.

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ursvamp
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 29 2020, 12:50

Hey. Something I’ve been thinking about regarding the new Lelith model: they gave her one of those weighted/bladed chain-whips that also occur in the wych-kit. They have always been just cool variants for normal close combat weapons (wyches have a couple of exotic selections of CCWs that are just there for esthetics and variation). seems odd that they would put effort into giving her that if it remains just a normal CCW, right? Could this imply that those are getting their own rules in the upcoming codex? Will any of the other unusual-looking weapons in the kit (crescent punching dagger, baton-blade) maybe also be getting specific rules?
That could be a way for them to expand the useability, and range, of wyches, rulewise, without updating the kit. And also plays into GWs recent tendancy to differentiate between melee weapons, maybe
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 29 2020, 19:32

@Cerve wrote:
Wow, I must say I never tought we were in that bad spot. It feels weird...I never find myself struggle on choices, maybe because I'm against the redundancy. Or maybe because we.still have more.valuable units than others. I mean, SM have 90+ datasheets, and on board you still see, how many...10? 15 choices?
I would prefer to see our existing units get some love (like, 90% of them being competitive) more than having more datasheet but woth 50% (or more) of them still useless.
My bad on numbers guys, I tought 30 data was like the standard. I guess not....but yes, dom't count SM anyway, they're more like a faction per-sè than a single army.

Nah, look at the past 20 events, you'll see well over 50 different units. Remember different factions want different units. RG for example has almost a completely different list than WS, and both are even more different than UW, etc.. if you are just counting vanilla book only, WS/RG/IH/UW all has 3-5 different units from each other.

But there are still a few units that are just always going to be the same, Eradicators, Intercessors, Captains, Chaplains, Lieutenants, Apoth/Chief, Vang Vets.

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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 30 2020, 00:24

@ursvamp wrote:
Hey. Something I’ve been thinking about regarding the new Lelith model: they gave her one of those weighted/bladed chain-whips that also occur in the wych-kit. They have always been just cool variants for normal close combat weapons (wyches have a couple of exotic selections of CCWs that are just there for esthetics and variation). seems odd that they would put effort into giving her that if it remains just a normal CCW, right? Could this imply that those are getting their own rules in the upcoming codex? Will any of the other unusual-looking weapons in the kit (crescent punching dagger, baton-blade) maybe also be getting specific rules?
That could be a way for them to expand the useability, and range, of wyches, rulewise, without updating the kit. And also plays into GWs recent tendancy to differentiate between melee weapons, maybe

uhhh, did they? She's still holding her signature blades...

EDIT: Just saw it on her waist, wow, 3 seconds after I post.

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AlCorps
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 30 2020, 04:30

I wonder if the new Lelith model was done by the same guy who did the new Tau Shadowsun model?
Both are doing the jumping-off-a-rock-while-looking-sideways pose, and both have a severe case of bulging calves and thick thighs.
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Darklord
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 30 2020, 09:01

Models with the same pose : left foot on a rock
Shadowsun
Ragnar
Shadowseer
Ephrael
Primaris Lieutenant in Phobos Armour
Lelith
and
Haarken Worldclaimer (metal bar)
Commander Farsight (little rock)

Perhaps our V9 rules could be better inspired than Lelith model.
Fortunately, Incubi leaks give me great hope.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: New Drukhari boxset announced   New Drukhari boxset announced - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 01 2021, 12:06

I can't tell...is her hair splitting, and spinning 2 different directions, or is her hair so long it forms a complete circle?

In either case, why is her hair forming a circle? She seems to be dashing forward, and there is no motion of her head to suggest she just completed a full, bend at the waist with hands on knees windmill head-bang.

A very stupid, and more to the point, unnecessary model.

It doesn't inspire confidence to think that not having a stupid enough Lelith model ranked high on GW's list of issues to solve.
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