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 Tantalus in 9th

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Oaka
Dalamar
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Thunderscourge
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PostSubject: Tantalus in 9th   Tantalus in 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 22 2020, 17:00

I wanted to see what other people thought about the Tantalus in 9th edition given its mixture of firepower, speed, durability (for a Dark Eldar unit), and transport capabilities.

As you can fit a Kabalite squad with 3 Blasters and 1 Dark Lance on it they certainly can have a decent amount of damage output, they aren't super easy to wipe off the board from the looks of things, but I do not know how they play out on the board in reality. Raw numbers only tell one part of the story, and so I am hoping to see what thoughts others have about the vehicle.

I also wonder if they will change it at all with the coming codex by introducing rules and whatnot which will in turn effect its playability. For example stratagems, buffs/nerfs to Kabalites, and so on and so forth.

I feel Kabalites need it at the moment given how fragile they are for their cost and damage output (50% more points for weapons that typically will serve as lasguns or bolters in terms of output, but without orders or bolter discipline). At the moment the ones who are not wielding a Blaster or Dark Lance just feel negligible.

So, any thoughts on the state of the Tantalus and related units/stratagems in 9th edition? Curious to hear from those who have experience with/against it since I have never encountered one myself and I like the look of it, I just am hesitant to use them if they happen to be worse than expected.
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Oaka
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Oaka

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus in 9th   Tantalus in 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 23 2020, 15:30

In a non-tournament setting, the Legends rules are killer with a Tantalus. Three units of Trueborn and a blaster Archon will fit in there, giving you 13 dark light shots pouring out. You can't get hit bonuses for embarked units, but you can make them Obsidian Rose to give 24" range on those blasters. You can also bring in the entire thing with Screaming Jets for only 1 CP so it's a guaranteed round of shooting.

It would be nice if the new codex lets you pack a Tantalus with firepower somewhere between this and the current Kabalite situation which, as you say, is overpriced and full of negligible splinter rifles.

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Thunderscourge
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus in 9th   Tantalus in 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 23 2020, 15:48

@Oaka wrote:
In a non-tournament setting, the Legends rules are killer with a Tantalus.  Three units of Trueborn and a blaster Archon will fit in there, giving you 13 dark light shots pouring out.  You can't get hit bonuses for embarked units, but you can make them Obsidian Rose to give 24" range on those blasters.  You can also bring in the entire thing with Screaming Jets for only 1 CP so it's a guaranteed round of shooting.

It would be nice if the new codex lets you pack a Tantalus with firepower somewhere between this and the current Kabalite situation which, as you say, is overpriced and full of negligible splinter rifles.

You can even cut down on the Trueborn squads by having 4 blasters and 2 Dark Lances per Trueborn squad, allowing you to put 2 groups of Trueborn in a Tantalus while still having another Trueborn squad able to be put in a Raider or even another Tantalus. Sadly the Dark Lances will lose accuracy if on the move, but it's just another option which came to mind.

Really wish Trueborn hadn't been put into Legends, I really like them and they have lore which sets them aside from the typical Drukhari. What I would wish for above all else for the coming codex would just be a new unit which functions like they used to. Having access like you say to heavy firepower without needing to heavily invest in splinter rifles which do almost nothing now.

Hopefully GW throws Kabals a bone, but the rules updates we've seen seem focused on close combat...fingers crossed we will be able to have Kabal units be worth it. Right now the only real draw they've got is Ravagers, since the Court of the Archon is meh at best and so ends their unique units now that Trueborn are gone.

Has there been any news on the Drukhari codex after the Incubi rules update?
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus in 9th   Tantalus in 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 23 2020, 22:21

check out archon Skari's youtube channel SkaredCast

he has been playing it in RTTs since the point drop.

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Thunderscourge
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus in 9th   Tantalus in 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 23 2020, 22:26

@Dalamar wrote:
check out archon Skari's youtube channel SkaredCast

he has been playing it in RTTs since the point drop.

I will look into his channel when the holidays are over and the work I have to get done is completed, but thank you for the recommendation! I just wish I could actually watch things at the moment...I have a lot of programming for a project to do over the next few days and I can't allow myself to be distracted too greatly.

Are there any general things to take away from his videos to sate my curiosity in the meantime? No worries if you can't tl;dr them though, just figured I would ask before I go away into my dungeon of programming.
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus in 9th   Tantalus in 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 23 2020, 22:33

He mostly takes it as Dark Technomancers and loads 15 Wyches in it with Leilith.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus in 9th   Tantalus in 9th I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 24 2020, 07:47

Its to costly for what it is in 9th, you can not get obscuring, most weapons are going up in damage rather than down, its so huge it can not hide, meaning you'll only get 1 turn with it vs most lists, maybe 2 turns.

With that said, you can think of it has s distraction unit, get 1 good turn with it and try to only lose those 310pts that turn and nothing else. You can trade up a turn with it so many are thinking it'll be worth it just for that reason. But over all you'll have less units on the table too, so its a risk.

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Oaka
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus in 9th   Tantalus in 9th I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 24 2020, 18:29

@amishprn86 wrote:
Its to costly for what it is in 9th, you can not get obscuring, most weapons are going up in damage rather than down, its so huge it can not hide, meaning you'll only get 1 turn with it vs most lists, maybe 2 turns.

That's absolutely the reason I don't consider using one myself.  It's about as durable as two-and-a-half Talos.  If I were to spend the money and time on a large Forgeworld centrepiece model I would like for it to be on the actual table longer than it is on the sideboard either in reserve or as a casualty.
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Thunderscourge
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus in 9th   Tantalus in 9th I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 24 2020, 18:45

@Oaka wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Its to costly for what it is in 9th, you can not get obscuring, most weapons are going up in damage rather than down, its so huge it can not hide, meaning you'll only get 1 turn with it vs most lists, maybe 2 turns.

That's absolutely the reason I don't consider using one myself.  It's about as durable as two-and-a-half Talos.  If I were to spend the money and time on a large Forgeworld centrepiece model I would like for it to be on the actual table longer than it is on the sideboard either in reserve or as a casualty.

Mathematically it takes around 24 Lascannon shots to take a Tantalus down if you use the -1 to hit stratagem for it, and 18 without said stratagem. Alternatively 72 Autocannon shots or 15 Melta shots within the +2 to damage range will do it, but if the Tantalus is in +2 melta range I think it is likely being used wrong. It's 24 melta shots without the +2.

Is that really that fragile? It's actually a bit more durable than a Land Raider for about the same cost due to having a 5++ save and the stratagem mentioned. How much anti-tank is being fielded at the moment?
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Oaka
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus in 9th   Tantalus in 9th I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 24 2020, 21:14

I do all my large target/vehicle mental simulations with eradicators these days, so yes, unfortunately, it is that fragile if you consider taking it to the average tournament.  You need to be further than 17" away from eradicators to avoid half melta range.  I have seen what eradicators can do firsthand to a unit of 3 Talos in one turn and now have to split them up into separate units just to avoid that double tap ability.

6 eradicators with melta rifles (240 points)- 8 hits, 5.3 wounds, 3.55 get past night shield= 19.55 wounds

6 eradicators with heavy melta rifles (270 points)- 6 hits, 4 wounds, 2.66 get past night shield= 20 wounds

That's without any of the multitude of buffs the eradicators can get, which easily win out against the lone stratagem that can be used for Tantalus defense.  Heavy melta rifles don't even get affected by -1 to hit since they already suffer it from moving.

In a competitive sense, the Tantalus comes up short. I have heard a little chatter about taking more than one in a list, since their points came down, but don't know if anyone has actually tried that yet. If you're not worried about tournaments, the Tantalus can certainly be a tough unit to crack compared to other Drukhari choices, and at that point those Trueborn become the go-to choice. It's actually a very good prospect in a more casual setting, it's a shame that doesn't transfer over to tournaments.
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Thunderscourge
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus in 9th   Tantalus in 9th I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 24 2020, 21:54

@Oaka wrote:
I do all my large target/vehicle mental simulations with eradicators these days, so yes, unfortunately, it is that fragile if you consider taking it to the average tournament.  You need to be further than 17" away from eradicators to avoid half melta range.  I have seen what eradicators can do firsthand to a unit of 3 Talos in one turn and now have to split them up into separate units just to avoid that double tap ability.

6 eradicators with melta rifles (240 points)- 8 hits, 5.3 wounds, 3.55 get past night shield= 19.55 wounds

6 eradicators with heavy melta rifles (270 points)- 6 hits, 4 wounds, 2.66 get past night shield= 20 wounds

That's without any of the multitude of buffs the eradicators can get, which easily win out against the lone stratagem that can be used for Tantalus defense.  Heavy melta rifles don't even get affected by -1 to hit since they already suffer it from moving.

In a competitive sense, the Tantalus comes up short.  I have heard a little chatter about taking more than one in a list, since their points came down, but don't know if anyone has actually tried that yet.  If you're not worried about tournaments, the Tantalus can certainly be a tough unit to crack compared to other Drukhari choices, and at that point those Trueborn become the go-to choice.  It's actually a very good prospect in a more casual setting, it's a shame that doesn't transfer over to tournaments.

I appreciate the insight. I personally feel like Eradicators are a bit OP from what I have seen of them, but fortunately they die to the Tantalus too with the strat mentioned above of Dark Technomancers.

Tantalus in 9th FdJQ2NC

It seems like it'd be a matter of who shoots first, which is risky in either direction, but if you start your Tantalus back in your deployment zone you can leverage its massive movement range and its 36" range on its guns to hit anywhere on the board I think. Then once the threat is removed you move in to drop off its passengers or just drive them around shooting stuff.

And yes the above is me hypothesizing about using 3 Tantalus, but the firepower is quite formidable. With Kabalites on each one, and backup Kabalites for a Raider/objectives, you could hypothetically wipe enemies off the board and seize board control.

It would have trouble with horde armies, but against elite ones with expensive units I feel you coul really make them hurt be it Gravis Space Marines, Terminators, or Custodes.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus in 9th   Tantalus in 9th I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 25 2020, 15:15

The problem is, Eradicators are always worth their points, has massive re-rolls, heals, revives, cover works on them, etc.. they are leaps and bounds better in every way other than fast movement.

Even if the Tantalus goes first, they will be in cover, behind Obscuring, most likely also a -1 to hit b.c of cover too. Now we are talking either or both, 2+/-1/6+++ and obscuring. And if you do not kill the full 6man unit they will revive one.

Doing the math for that in DT, a Tantalus only kills 2 Eradicators while they are in cover with -1 to hit.

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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus in 9th   Tantalus in 9th I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 25 2020, 15:26

Don't they have a range advantage however at 36" vs 24"? Eradicators do have 5" movement after all, so they would need an Impulsor to account for their lesser range. Even with 2+ armor save and -1 to hit a single Tantalus can kill 3 Eradicators on average in a volley with Dark Technomancers. With 2 Tantalus you could kill the entire Eradicators squad.

Not saying they are the most meta thing by far, just thinking out how to actually make use of them given what capabilities they do possess. If a Tantalus makes its points back in 2-3 turns of shooting and you keep it alive for 5 turns by first eliminating the threats to it from superior range then you could have then put in some work.

Killing an average of 5 normal marines a turn (averaging around 20~ points each) would mean in 3 turns you pay the Tantalus back, during which time it has also served as a shield for the squishy special weapons wielders on top of it. If turn 1 you wipe out their anti-vehicle weapons by using your range then you have a trio of T7 W18 Sv3+/5++ vehicles free to wipe out anything that looks at them funny.

Probably would be better in a more casual environment, but again just thinking about how to best make use of them.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus in 9th   Tantalus in 9th I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 26 2020, 09:46

They would use Transhuman for 4+ to wound only, so DT just makes them die to 1 wound roll instead of 2. So yo don't kill 3.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus in 9th   Tantalus in 9th I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 02 2021, 07:43

For me, is one of the most competitive models we have. DT of course.
About being easy to kill, seems to me that everyone forget that you can deepstrike it for just 1 CP. If you need his firepower and you guess that it will die easy in turn 1, just deepstrike it.
Otherwise (Marines usually have short ranges.besides Repulsors, no Eradicator will kill it on T1 anyway), just deploy it out of range.
Then, you should play on threats. Tantalus is killable, if you let your opponent target it. You should force him with multiple threats so you will get likely two different scenarios: 1) Tantalus dies anyway, but your game is set already, and get the most value on it; 2) Tantalus still alice spreading avoc because your oppo is forced to kill more pressing threats.
If none of these happens, you're playing it bad.

And don't forget that DT Tantalus get T8 withing 6" from Haemonculus, so (besides Salamanders) any melta will wound it on 4+. Same.with (non repulsors) plasma, useful against Inceptors.

A tip: do not load it with value. It becames too.big as a threat and it will draw every attention on it. If you run Incubi or other good stuff, bring them Raiders, do not stick them.in. You need to keep the Tantalus light and surround it with other threats. Avoid all the eggs into the same basket or it will die fast with a lot of regrets.
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PostSubject: Re: Tantalus in 9th   Tantalus in 9th I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 04 2021, 16:06

I have been using the Tantalus for 10+ games since the FW update. I honestly have found it amazing. I have been running it in DT and the Dmg 3 is just a killer, especially ion the current meta of Terminators, 3 wounds SM, and Daemons.

Yes, you can load it with a bunch of goodies and have it just be a battering ram of great units. I initially started with Drazhar, wyches, and incubi, and an Archon in there. However, I found this was a major mistake. I actually put less threatening units in there, and spread my harder hitting units out. For example, I have my archon, Haemonuclus, 5 regular Wracks, and 5-6 Wyches in the Tantalus. Nothing too threatening or anything to worry about. With the footprint though of the Tantalus, you are able to disembarks multiple units (often from opposite sides) and capture objectives or harass multiple units.

I then have put Drazhar and Incubi in a Raider so spread threats around. I have found the "all eggs in one basket approach" isn't viable for the durability reasons said above. We should be flooding the field with multiple targets and have target priority difficult for our opponents. Having an additional Reaper, a large squad of bikes, 3 venoms, Incubi Raider and Tantalus in my list, it makes it difficult to zero in on what my opponent needs to kill. Yes the Tantalus can put out damage, but doesn't have anything too scary inside and requires much more shooting to destroy (I also keep a Haemon around to make it T8 in the first turn, which really bumps up the durability). If I can move my  Tantalus up to midfield, it is very advantageous to have the multiple units pop out. Plus, the Tantalus can be a finisher in CC for 1 or 2 models of weaker units.

@Cerve
I must have overlooked your points... But glad we are on the same page! We are thinking the same thing! Good outlook!

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