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 Your favourite Talos build

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amishprn86
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amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 20 2020, 01:42

@sekac wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
HWB are hitting on 5+, 2 shots is average for a D3, each 2 models has a Two HWB thats 4 shots each model for 8 shots in total

8 shots hitting on 5+ is 2.667 hits.

2.667 hits that is a 0.88 5+'s, ( also equally will do nothing or 1 wound). You are effectively rolling 2 dice for your wounds with a higher than 1/2 chance to roll a 3rd dice. Which will equal out to about 2.3 wounds b.c if you do get the 5+ to wound they also need a armor save.

Haywire blasters need 4s to wound, not 5s. So, assuming 3 hits (i know im rounding up but give them benefit of the good saves in other instances). Assuming an even distribution, 1 die rolls 1 or 2 (50% chance to take a mortal wound), one rolls a 3 or 4 doing 1 mortal wound, and the last rolls a 5 or 6, doing average 2 mortal wounds.


So a hair under 3 mortal wounds.

Then let's look at the actual wounds from the gun. 3 hits is 1.5 wounds, they save 33%, so 2 wounds from the blasters (because damage 2).

Going back to fix your math on the LGs, 14 hits=4.62 wounds. Let's say their 6+ (on average) save stops the 0.62. That leaves 4 wounds doubled to 8 wounds from the LGs.

So, on average, 8+3+2=13 total wounds dealt. Let's round down again and call it 12 wounds.

Also, re: mortal wounds taken, you're off by an entire wound. I take 2 from the LGs, and .5 wounds from haywire. 2.5 expected.

I deal 12 wounds on average, and take 2.5.

In your haste to dismiss the idea without ever trying it, you've messed up every single part of your math.

Again, what would you suggest I spend those points on? 20 points better spent...where?

5's to do D3 as DT.....

Also i see i miss type, I meant to say 3 not 3.5 MW's taken. You take wounds 1/6 the time, its 2.8 wounds as you said round up, so 3 wounds like I meant to say.

But all this is moot b.c You are not hitting a flyer turn 1 if they don't want you to. You do better shooting DC/DL/Poison at it lol.

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sekac
Sybarite
sekac

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Join date : 2017-06-03

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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 20 2020, 14:20

No, its 2.4444

2.667 hits, 1/6 of those are 1s. But sure, we'll round up to 3 because I'm more than willing to take 2 wounds on one Talos and 1 wound on another to one-shot a plane.

And I never said I have to kill it on turn 1. I said I have to kill it in one turn. If I shoot it up but don't finish it, I'm taking a flying 'eadbutt.

Since I have two units that, on average, one-shot it, I feel much better about my chances than having 0 units that can one-shot it, which is the alternative you're suggesting.

And once again, you are fixated on one single tree in the forest.

Over and over, you've completely ignored the fundamental point, which is 5 points per model is a very small price to pay for:

-the best overwatch available to us, no question.
-a very reliable method for killing 2 wound infantry with good saves (kinda common)
-a surprisingly effective anti-tank gun
-the ability to shoot in CC

I'm losing 1 attack in the tradeoff and take mortal wounds. But I lose fewer wounds than I would if I took a charge to the face, and I do more damage than a 2nd CC weapon ever could.

Tell me why I shouldn't take LGs on a Talos.
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Oaka
Hellion
Oaka

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Join date : 2020-08-02

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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 20 2020, 17:09

A different question than weapon loadouts, but how do you like to run your Taloi if you have, say a total of 3? As one unit or separate units? I had been using a single unit of 3 to get the most out of Torturer's Craft and being able to chain the Haemonculus aura to the unit with only needing one Talos within 6", but then I came across Eradicators. Now I run them as individual units for survivability (stupid, stupid Eradicators) and have found that being able to peel off individual models to go after different objectives has been very useful. Being Fly and having an 8" move, as well as being a target for Fire and Fade, allows me to send a single Talos away from my main group and head in a straight line to a different objective, which Grotesques and Wracks simply cannot do.
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amishprn86
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amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 20 2020, 18:06

LG's are 10pts more per Talos not 5pts, and I'm done talking about math, i've ran the numbers many times, you are hurting yourself a lot on a 5++ unit that costs 125pts. And they are not the best OW, OFC they are not, that goes to 10man LG Grot unit. Thats 10 LG's not 6 (for a unit of 3 Talos).

4 Talos with HWB and LGs are 500pts, thats 28 wounds, but 9 Grots is 495pts for 36 wounds, 7 more wounds and 3 more flamers. Why not just run 10 LG Grots over Talos?

IMO f you are wanting to use Stratagems on them like RR wounds, or in PoF with a Vex mask behind them, etc.. then you want them in 3 mans. If you are running them not for that purpose then 2 mans are fine, as you can spread them out more, hide behind Obscuring easier, and not take as much damage b.c only 5++ saves.

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sekac
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sekac

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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 20 2020, 18:57

@amishprn86 wrote:
LG's are 10pts more per Talos not 5pts, and I'm done talking about math, i've ran the numbers many times, you are hurting yourself a lot on a 5++ unit that costs 125pts. And they are not the best OW, OFC they are not, that goes to 10man LG Grot unit. Thats 10 LG's not 6 (for a unit of 3 Talos).

4 Talos with HWB and LGs are 500pts, thats 28 wounds, but 9 Grots is 495pts for 36 wounds, 7 more wounds and 3 more flamers. Why not just run 10 LG Grots over Talos?

IMO f you are wanting to use Stratagems on them like RR wounds, or in PoF with a Vex mask behind them, etc.. then you want them in 3 mans. If you are running them not for that purpose then 2 mans are fine, as you can spread them out more, hide behind Obscuring easier, and not take as much damage b.c only 5++ saves.

Oh you're right on the points, I was thinking of the cost of regular LGs.

I prefer PoF grots. It compliments them much better. LGs on grots removes one of their weapons entirely, they also lack haywire and fly, so they can't zone out as well. Also, if rolls go poorly, they can take a lot of wounds from those LGs. Each failure is one model 25% dead. They also can't use them in close combat.

I've been running LGs on Talos, and the wounds don't really pile up like you fear. Because the reality is, while we look at the average hits for LGs and think "7 hits, that means at least one 1", that's also the absolute ceiling for how bad the roll can be. If I roll 2 hits with one talos, and 12 with the other, I'm more likely than not to roll multiple 1s for one LG, and more likely than not to not roll any for the other.

I'm fine assuming I'll take 1 wound from each gun, but it's not how it actually works out. It's less than that. After many games with this setup, I'd say I take probably 2 mortal wounds per Talos throughout the game. Maybe 3. Sometimes more, but that usually just means I've removed multiple units from the board. Fair trade.

In my experience, if an opponent wants to kill my Talos, they'll find a way to get it done. This setup basically relegates their options to range only. The risk of overwatch, and the risk of not killing the Talos if you survive OW and getting blasted in combat is too high for most dedicated combat units.

Blasting one squad they're in combat with off the table, then charging a different unit that liquified unit was trying to protect is solid gold.
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fisheyes
Hekatrix
fisheyes

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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 21 2020, 12:29

Honestly, with BS 4+ the guns on the Taloi generally whiff when you need them most. They almost feel like just a vector to proc Fire And Fade to try and get them into a better position.

The Talos also give up 2VP each for Bring It Down. Combined with our Mech heavy meta builds, its almost an auto-take against DE.

Played a game yesterday VS Nids and dropped the 3 Taloi for a second block of Grots. I was much happier with the Grots over the Talos, and dont think I will go back to the Taloi for a while.

Maybe they would be better if you overload with them (3 broods of 3)
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amishprn86
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amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 21 2020, 15:23

Yeah, if you go Talos you need your army to be full of MC/Vehicles and gives up 0 other secondaries, you goal should be to never give up more than 15pts in secondaries IMO. Really 0 if you can get away with it, but mostly only Quins, Custodes, and Marines can do that.

I was just talking about dropping all 3-6 Talos for Grots as well on Discord and seems to basically be equal in what your want, so if you don't want to give up secondaries then go Grots for sure.

I also like the idea of just take 3x5 over 2x3, more units, infantry, more wounds, etc.. b.c i'm not wining games via damage, i'm winning on placements and layer defenses only basically. I was doing all MC/Vehicles but its getting boring and I am a little more limited in what i want to do.

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Gelmir
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Gelmir

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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 23 2020, 08:53

I have 2 Talos, and usually I'd equip one with dual macro scalpels and haywire, to be my anti-heavy-talos. The second one is usually equipped with a chain flail against infantry. And for the tail I still don't know if the stinger pods or the splinter cannons would be better. I get mixed results.

Also, I usually have 2 coven detachments. PoF for the Wracks and all (Black Cornucopians is ridiculous). And DT for my Reaper and Talos.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 23 2020, 12:56

@amishprn86, you and I are completely in agreement on that. Grots just seem to be better at scoring points and denying points (and can be incredibly frustrating with their 4W T6 4++)

@Gelmir, not sure if Splinter Cannons are really worth it for 30 points. Maybe if the Talos was BS3+, or the Splinter Cannons were better (the going theory is that they will get buffed once we get our new Codex). Venoms/warriors would be my recommended platform if you wanted ranged poison weapons. Everyone knows the power of DT/MoM Venoms

Stinger Pods are much more interesting IMO. They pair well with DT (only 1 weapon so can only inflict 1 MW from overcharging) and are quite cheap. They even have a decent rate of fire, so the BS4+ shouldn't be too bad (but still not great).
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amishprn86
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amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 23 2020, 13:35

Yeah, i liked Pods when i used them. The HWB at times will deal 2 MW's and i have done a MW back to me, but the pods as always felt god for their points and their purpose.

Though i might be going to Grots until sometype of Gut Busters is put into the game.

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