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 Your favourite Talos build

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Kalmah
Kabalite Warrior
Kalmah

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PostSubject: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 18 2020, 13:42

I will soon build a new Talos model (my 3rd) and was wondering what is your favourite build for this model, regarding his arsenal.

My first is 2x Macro Scalpel / 2x heat lance
my second is 1x Chain Flails, 1x Twin liquifier / 2x Haywire Blaster

Every input is much appreciated Smile

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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 18 2020, 13:46

Magnets can be your friend. Wink, and the talos arms and tail weapon are really easy to magnetize.

I have tended to run Haywire blasters a macro scalpel and chain flails. Mathematically the 2 macro scalpels are better, but when you get up against hordes, even the psychological factor of the chain flails is worth it IMO.

I can't remember the last time I used a liquifier as I would never find that the damage output justified the sacrifice of the melee attacks. If you're taking Talos, the reason to do so is to get it into combat. So removing melee seems counter intuitive to me.
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 18 2020, 13:59

@Silverglade wrote:
Magnets can be your friend.  Wink, and the talos arms and tail weapon are really easy to magnetize.

I have tended to run Haywire blasters a macro scalpel and chain flails.    Mathematically the 2 macro scalpels are better, but when you get up against hordes, even the psychological factor of the chain flails is worth it IMO.

I can't remember the last time I used a liquifier as I would never find that the damage output justified the sacrifice of the melee attacks.   If you're taking Talos, the reason to do so is to get it into combat.   So removing melee seems counter intuitive to me.

Excellent! exactly the kind of comments i needed Wink
I will take them into account!
As for now i have the intention on doing another 2x Scalpel (so what you're saying validate a little).
The tail weapons i'm not really sure....one thing tough is that the Splinter Canons are really not impressing me (in comparison to my ''before-first-game'' impression i had for them).

thanks for your time Smile
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 18 2020, 14:00

Ive been running the dual Macro Scalpal and twin Heat Lance versions. Cheap and effective AT platform. Always run in 3 man units so that they are in range of the needed +1T Haemi aura

TBH, I am thinking of dropping them from the list. We give up too many easy points for Bring Them Down (2VP per Talos/Venom/Raider/Ravager and 3VP per Reaper). Grots seem to do much of the same job (Talos shooting is "meh" at best)

The 1/8" Magnets from Lee Valley (I think you have the store in Montreal) works great for the hand and tail weapons.

My favorite Talos build is my custom conversion of an old metal Wraith Lord from 3ed Very Happy (I got a whole theme going with my Grots/Taloi built from converted Wraith models, in tribute to the DE Trilogy)
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 18 2020, 14:25

@fisheyes wrote:
Ive been running the dual Macro Scalpal and twin Heat Lance versions. Cheap and effective AT platform. Always run in 3 man units so that they are in range of the needed +1T Haemi aura

TBH, I am thinking of dropping them from the list. We give up too many easy points for Bring Them Down (2VP per Talos/Venom/Raider/Ravager and 3VP per Reaper). Grots seem to do much of the same job (Talos shooting is "meh" at best)

The 1/8" Magnets from Lee Valley (I think you have the store in Montreal) works great for the hand and tail weapons.

My favorite Talos build is my custom conversion of an old metal Wraith Lord from 3ed Very Happy (I got a whole theme going with my Grots/Taloi built from converted Wraith models, in tribute to the DE Trilogy)

thanks for the good points!
yah, i've seen your post regarding the removal of Talos from your list Wink
As of late i'm just trying EVERYTHING possible to see what fits me best.
1st game was a drukhari soup
2nd was a Kabal only
My next game i'm hesitating between a mix of Cult and Coven (i'm not playing competitive, only kitchen table with friends) or Coven and Kabal (but after my kabal only game, i wanna have a taste at the Cults to see what they can do).

lol did'nt knew that lee valley was selling magnets for minis! are they best than the one sole by the Army painter tm or hobby specialized brand? or they are the same thing, only a little cheaper?

That being told....heat lance vs haywire.....is there a clear winner?
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 18 2020, 15:24

@Kalmah wrote:
That being told....heat lance vs haywire.....is there a clear winner?

It really depend of the rest of your list. But usually, when you have a lot of coven, you tend to lack a bit of AT. That's where the haywire is useful. Also, Haywire is 24''. So it's easier to shoot at something and use the Fire and Fade stratagem.
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 18 2020, 16:02

thanks! really useful Smile
Really happy to have joined this forum for this kind of comments Smile
You make my immersion in this game really easier!
Without magnets, every decision is almost heartbreaking when building a nice model like talos who have that many options!
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 18 2020, 17:24

The better loado ut IMO is HWB/ x2 Scalpels.

But if you don't care about adding 3-4 more wounds to a vehicle, Pods are great for the points. I've ran with Pods a couple times and they work well to help in anti infantry and at cheap (30pts for a unit less). But if you need anti vehicle then go HWB.

With the new Melta rules i'll give HL's a try if we get them, but only in DT as Str 6 really sucks.

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 18 2020, 17:36

DT seams to be the way to go for Coven units, that or PoF.
My issue is indeed the vehicles, so Haywire might be my choice.
Thanks for sharing amishprn86 Smile
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 18 2020, 17:38

PoF is still very strong, Vex Mast is insane right now. Having a large Grot unit on a mid objective can change the game. Just make sure to have a Wych, Kabal, or Wrack unit near to give ObSec if they have one.


EDIT: With that said, DT is still very strong, but IMO it only is b.c 1/2 the meta is marines. If i wasn't playing marines 1/2 the time I would full go PoF.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 18 2020, 18:19

If using Dark Technomancer, I'll take twin liquifiers and 2x haywire blasters. Liquifiers absolutely shred primaris marines and since they can be used in combat and auto-hit, they're considerably better than both a 2nd macro-scalpel or chain flails. Most units will never charge them, because they'll just be deleted by overwatch.

Taking the mortal wounds sounds bad, but it makes them weirdly more resilient in some ways. If each model in a unit is wounded, then the first time they are allocated wounds in each phase you can choose a different Talos to take the wounds.

For instance, say you've got a squad of 3 and each has inflicted 1 mortal wound on itself. Your opponent hits you with smite and does 4 wounds, then allocate to one Talos, bringing to 2 wounds remaining. In the shooting phase you take 5 wounds from a lascannon, allocate that to a different Talos, bring it to 1 wound remaining. In the combat phase, you take another 5 wounds, allocate that to the 3rd Talos, bringing it to 1 wound also. You've taken a total of 17 wounds (14 from the enemy and 3 from yourself) and still haven't lost a Talos.

No other build comes even remotely close to the versatility and raw damage output.

If using PoF instead, I wouldn't bother with the twin-liqs. They don't do nearly enough. I usually go with 2x scalpel, 2x haywire there.
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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 18 2020, 18:31

one thing people often forget, is that Haywire actually aren't bad anti infantry either.

The haywire rule obviously doesn't help you, but it is still D3 shot S4 AP -1 gun. So not terrible, certainly better than the splinter cannons in my mind.
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 18 2020, 19:09

@sekac wrote:
If using Dark Technomancer, I'll take twin liquifiers and 2x haywire blasters. Liquifiers absolutely shred primaris marines and since they can be used in combat and auto-hit, they're considerably better than both a 2nd macro-scalpel or chain flails. Most units will never charge them, because they'll just be deleted by overwatch.

Taking the mortal wounds sounds bad, but it makes them weirdly more resilient in some ways. If each model in a unit is wounded, then the first time they are allocated wounds in each phase you can choose a different Talos to take the wounds.

For instance,  say you've got a squad of 3 and each has inflicted 1 mortal wound on itself. Your opponent hits you with smite and does 4 wounds, then allocate to one Talos, bringing to 2 wounds remaining. In the shooting phase you take 5 wounds from a lascannon, allocate that to a different Talos, bring it to 1 wound remaining. In the combat phase, you take another 5 wounds, allocate that to the 3rd Talos, bringing it to 1 wound also. You've taken a total of 17 wounds (14 from the enemy and 3 from yourself) and still haven't lost a Talos.

No other build comes even remotely close to the versatility and raw damage output.

If using PoF instead, I wouldn't bother with the twin-liqs. They don't do nearly enough. I usually go with 2x scalpel, 2x haywire there.


now that is cleaver! i haven't thought of that about the damage repartition! i'll put that in my book Wink
I think the only rule that really apply to everyone, no matter the build, is no Splinter Canon!

About the overwatch and the twin liquifier gun (flamer too), now that is a rule that i think is stupid....even if its an auto hit in NORMAL SHOOTING PHASE, i find it stupid that it still apply in overwatch. I mean, why would the ballistic skill be completely overwritten in overwatch but not those kind of little rules?....but instead of ranting about it, i will play with it for sure Wink
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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 18 2020, 22:26

@sekac wrote:
If using Dark Technomancer, I'll take twin liquifiers and 2x haywire blasters. Liquifiers absolutely shred primaris marines and since they can be used in combat and auto-hit, they're considerably better than both a 2nd macro-scalpel or chain flails. Most units will never charge them, because they'll just be deleted by overwatch.

Taking the mortal wounds sounds bad, but it makes them weirdly more resilient in some ways. If each model in a unit is wounded, then the first time they are allocated wounds in each phase you can choose a different Talos to take the wounds.

For instance,  say you've got a squad of 3 and each has inflicted 1 mortal wound on itself. Your opponent hits you with smite and does 4 wounds, then allocate to one Talos, bringing to 2 wounds remaining. In the shooting phase you take 5 wounds from a lascannon, allocate that to a different Talos, bring it to 1 wound remaining. In the combat phase, you take another 5 wounds, allocate that to the 3rd Talos, bringing it to 1 wound also. You've taken a total of 17 wounds (14 from the enemy and 3 from yourself) and still haven't lost a Talos.

No other build comes even remotely close to the versatility and raw damage output.

If using PoF instead, I wouldn't bother with the twin-liqs. They don't do nearly enough. I usually go with 2x scalpel, 2x haywire there.

What are you using as the melee weapon there?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 18 2020, 22:32

To me LG is still not good enough, especially in DT b.c thats another weapon to generate another wound to yourself. 3 Guns just seems like asking for to many wounds.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 19 2020, 01:38

@Sarcron wrote:
@sekac wrote:
If using Dark Technomancer, I'll take twin liquifiers and 2x haywire blasters. Liquifiers absolutely shred primaris marines and since they can be used in combat and auto-hit, they're considerably better than both a 2nd macro-scalpel or chain flails. Most units will never charge them, because they'll just be deleted by overwatch.

What are you using as the melee weapon there?

Just one Macro-scalpel. Has more versatility than the chain flail, and you can re-roll wounds anyway with a stratagem if necessary.

@amishprn86 wrote:
Post a reply I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 18 2020, 14:32
To me LG is still not good enough, especially in DT b.c thats another weapon to generate another wound to yourself. 3 Guns just seems like asking for to many wounds.

I totally understand that concern, but it seems worse than it is. The haywire guns aren't particularly likely to wound them (a squad of 3 will average 1 wound for all 6 haywire guns in a shooting phase--and thats assuming failed FNP). The LGs are pretty likely to force a wound through so it ends up being about 3.33 wounds per unit, per shooting phase, but distributed across the models.

Additionally, sometimes the LGs have potentially saved me wounds from the haywires by rolling hot and just wiping out a vehicle before I need to roll the haywires. The shots are "wasted", but the risk of bad rolls and piling wounds disappears too.

They can be absolutely game altering though. My friend plays orks, and he loves to use his kamikaze stratagem on his dakka jet to do mortal wounds to a huge number of MSU units. It's devastating. I can't afford to take more than 1 shooting phase to kill it. Each liquifier gun is statistically very similar to a ravager (but with higher potential) when shooting at vehicles.

He also loves to use Ghazkull, who you can only do 4 wounds to per phase. I can pretty reliably take 4 wounds off on turn 1, with ravagers. But with LGs, I can pretty reliably take another 4 wounds off in his charge phase. I've had multiple games where ghaz is down to his last 4 wounds and my opponent doesn't know what to do with him. He can risk throwing him away to my overwatch, or he could stand there and scratch his head. Without LGs, he 100% charges in and wrecks the squad.

I've had similar situations with CC oriented dreads. There is no correct decision for them. Two bad choices. The self-wounding is worth the control to me.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 19 2020, 09:19

@sekac wrote:
Additionally, sometimes the LGs have potentially saved me wounds from the haywires by rolling hot and just wiping out a vehicle before I need to roll the haywires. The shots are "wasted", but the risk of bad rolls and piling wounds disappears too.

They can be absolutely game altering though. My friend plays orks, and he loves to use his kamikaze stratagem on his dakka jet to do mortal wounds to a huge number of MSU units. It's devastating. I can't afford to take more than 1 shooting phase to kill it. Each liquifier gun is statistically very similar to a ravager (but with higher potential) when shooting at vehicles.

I genuinely don't understand how Liquifier guns are even factoring into shooting at a flyer with their 8 inch range. Ork planes can Flying 'Eadbutt from 50-60 inches away and they're still managing to get into your Talos' threat range before that happens?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 19 2020, 16:12

Yeah, 8" shooting on 8" moving isn't really good vs anything that moves fast. Even if you shoot that Ork plane its where it wants to be the turn you are shooting it, that plane forces you to spread out away from that spot or take the chance to eat MW's. So if you are shooting that Plane its already where it wants to be.

And then your still only wounding on 5's b.c Str 3 sucks.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 19 2020, 16:37

@amishprn86 wrote:
Yeah, 8" shooting on 8" moving isn't really good vs anything that moves fast. Even if you shoot that Ork plane its where it wants to be the turn you are shooting it, that plane forces you to spread out away from that spot or take the chance to eat MW's. So if you are shooting that Plane its already where it wants to be.

And then your still only wounding on 5's b.c Str 3 sucks.


Yeah none of that is true. Planes actually have to fit where they want to be, they dont get to just choose. So yes, the plane is where it wants to be IF and only if I choose to let it. And even if I do let it into my backfield, how is spreading out an issue? Did DE become a stationary castle since last I looked? A 1/6 chance of a 6" explosion is not a problem.

You're also ignoring advance and the fact that a plane MUST move at least 20". It usually doesn't want to fly as close as possible turn 1, so it moves somewhere to the mid board because it has to. I have 2 squads of 2 Talos that each have a potential 22" threat range. That eliminates huge sections of the board.

You can tell me it can't work, but I'm telling you it has.

If wounding vehicles on 5s sucks, then ravagers suck. Each Talos has the shooting power of ravager in its fist. You can tell me that having 4 extra ravagers on the table sucks all you want. But you'd be wrong.

Moreover, it's just a little disingenuous to seize one one aspect of my overall point and act as if that invalidates the whole argument. I spend 20 points on LGs over what I would be spending for a 2nd cc weapon on all of them. I could almost afford another sslyth instead.

Which one is more likely to change the battle?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 19 2020, 17:42

LOL your telling you can completely zone out 1 fly model base and shoot in 8"? Ok guy sorry but no. And Talos don't have 22" threat range, its 16+D6" if your advancing as your not rolling a 6 on both unit or relaying on it, I stopped reading after that.

Lets say you magically turn 1 get in range of a flyer that doesn't want to be in range turn 1 of Talos (which is stupidly easy when they move 50-60") You still are wounding on a 5+, if you have 2 of them in range (b.c you are 2x2) thats only 7 shots, which is 2.33 hits, but they have a 4+ save and you only have a 3.334% chance to have ap3, it'll come out to an average of 2 wounds, for 4 Damage in total. But you are also taking 1 wound, and now your 8 shots from HWbare hitting 2.6x, wounding on 5+ (+1) thats going to be 1 MW and 1 wound on average with a 5+ save.

In total 2 Talos with all 3 guns are doing 5.5 wounds and you are taking 2.5 wounds back.

If your opponent is getting their plane within 4 talos flamer range turn 1 then he is not playing well.

By all means keep doing it if you like, but I can not justify it math wise as a good idea, fun? sure! Good? No.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 19 2020, 18:13

@amishprn86 wrote:
LOL your telling you can completely zone out 1 fly model base and shoot in 8"? Ok guy sorry but no. And Talos don't have 22" threat range, its 16+D6" if your advancing as your not rolling a 6 on both unit or relaying on it, I stopped reading after that.

Lets say you magically turn 1 get in range of a flyer that doesn't want to be in range turn 1 of Talos (which is stupidly easy when they move 50-60") You still are wounding on a 5+, if you have 2 of them in range (b.c you are 2x2) thats only 7 shots, which is 2.33 hits, but they have a 4+ save and you only have a 3.334% chance to have ap3, it'll come out to an average of 2 wounds, for 4 Damage in total. But you are also taking 1 wound, and now your 8 shots from HWbare hitting 2.6x, wounding on 5+ (+1) thats going to be 1 MW and 1 wound on average with a 5+ save.

In total 2 Talos with all 3 guns are doing 5.5 wounds and you are taking 2.5 wounds back.

If your opponent is getting their plane within 4 talos flamer range turn 1 then he is not playing well.

By all means keep doing it if you like, but I can not justify it math wise as a good idea, fun? sure! Good? No.

Your math is wrong by half. 2D6 hits per talos, so an average of 14 shots, not 7.

And again, your fixated on one small aspect of my argument and ignoring the big picture. Tell me what 20 points I should spend instead that can offer anywhere close to that much control and damage.
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 19 2020, 18:26

Oh I forgot its twin, lol ok so you deal 7.5D and take 3.5 wounds. Still bad for hurting yourself and out positioning 2 Talos so they instantly die.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 19 2020, 18:49

@amishprn86 wrote:
Oh I forgot its twin, lol ok so you deal 7.5D and take 3.5 wounds. Still bad for hurting yourself and out positioning 2 Talos so they instantly die.

So you said 4 wounds from LGs the first time and we're adding 2 more wound when we double it?

You're getting closer, but still wrong.

Especially since you're disregarding D3 mortal wounds on a 5+ from haywire completely.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 19 2020, 19:05

HWB are hitting on 5+, 2 shots is average for a D3, each 2 models has a Two HWB thats 4 shots each model for 8 shots in total

8 shots hitting on 5+ is 2.667 hits.

2.667 hits that is a 0.88 5+'s, ( also equally will do nothing or 1 wound). You are effectively rolling 2 dice for your wounds with a higher than 1/2 chance to roll a 3rd dice. Which will equal out to about 2.3 wounds b.c if you do get the 5+ to wound they also need a armor save.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Your favourite Talos build   Your favourite Talos build I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 20 2020, 01:15

@amishprn86 wrote:
HWB are hitting on 5+, 2 shots is average for a D3, each 2 models has a Two HWB thats 4 shots each model for 8 shots in total

8 shots hitting on 5+ is 2.667 hits.

2.667 hits that is a 0.88 5+'s, ( also equally will do nothing or 1 wound). You are effectively rolling 2 dice for your wounds with a higher than 1/2 chance to roll a 3rd dice. Which will equal out to about 2.3 wounds b.c if you do get the 5+ to wound they also need a armor save.

Haywire blasters need 4s to wound, not 5s. So, assuming 3 hits (i know im rounding up but give them benefit of the good saves in other instances). Assuming an even distribution, 1 die rolls 1 or 2 (50% chance to take a mortal wound), one rolls a 3 or 4 doing 1 mortal wound, and the last rolls a 5 or 6, doing average 2 mortal wounds.


So a hair under 3 mortal wounds.

Then let's look at the actual wounds from the gun. 3 hits is 1.5 wounds, they save 33%, so 2 wounds from the blasters (because damage 2).

Going back to fix your math on the LGs, 14 hits=4.62 wounds. Let's say their 6+ (on average) save stops the 0.62. That leaves 4 wounds doubled to 8 wounds from the LGs.

So, on average, 8+3+2=13 total wounds dealt. Let's round down again and call it 12 wounds.

Also, re: mortal wounds taken, you're off by an entire wound. I take 2 from the LGs, and .5 wounds from haywire. 2.5 expected.

I deal 12 wounds on average, and take 2.5.

In your haste to dismiss the idea without ever trying it, you've messed up every single part of your math.

Again, what would you suggest I spend those points on? 20 points better spent...where?
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