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fisheyes
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fisheyes

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PostSubject: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 09 2020, 12:44

Ive been running into a few units that keep messing me up, and would like to see how other archons have countered these threats to our rightful dominance of the battlefield.

Tyranid Tyranofex – This guy has a 4D6 flamer that does D3 damage. Shoots on overwatch, then shoots you again in their Shooting Phase with no -1 to hit (because it’s a flamer). The Tyranofex generally gets a 5++ from its Psykic Awakening book along with a 5+++ Catalyst psykic power. The only way I can seem to deal with it is to ignore and hide :/

Marine Librarian on Jump Pack – This guy has the Null Zone psykic power that turns off our invulnerable saves on units within 6”. Deadly to our Coven units. It does need a 7 to pass, but when it goes off its very difficult to deny with the Helm of Spite. Librarian always surrounded by Primaris so it cant get targeted before doing its thing.

How are you guys playing around these units, and what other difficult units have you guys run up against?
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 09 2020, 14:19

I've yet to face either of these threats myself, so this is going to be pure theory. Apologies in advance if I say anything stupid.

Regarding the Tyrannofex, are you sure your opponent is playing it correctly? Unless I've missed something, its flamer only gets 2d6 shots. Now, granted, it does get to fire twice in his shooting phase, but that only applies if it didn't move, and doesn't apply to Overwatch at all.

Depending on its position, might it be possible to simply stay more than 18" away? That way it will have to move if it wants to shoot, thus losing half its potential shots.

If this is possible, perhaps you could concentrate fire initially on other units? If your opponent is concentrating on defending his Tyrannofex, he's not protecting genestealers, Hive Tyrant or whatever else he's using.

But if the Tyrannofex needs to die ASAP, I'm noticing that it only has a 3+ armour save. You've already mentioned Coven, so might some Dark Technomancer shooting be a good answer to it? It's invulnerable save will be useless against Venoms, and even with a 5+++ I'm not sure how long it can realistically last.Especially if you're able to throw in some other firepower into the mix. Granted, it's a little awkward because you have to get close to the thing to be fully effective, and it's something of a bullet-sponge in general.

If you prefer a melee approach, there's always the Vexator Mask to at least block its Overwatch shots (though obviously this requires a different Coven to the above).

If possible, I would suggest trying to avoid it initially and punish your opponent for protecting it over other stuff.


As for the Librarian, it's a very unfortunate matchup for us. I think it's a case where you'll have to accept some significant losses.

My best advice would be to lure it close with a juicy-looking target (perhaps a Grotesque squad?), and then focus everything you've got to kill the Primaris bodyguards and then the Librarian itself. I don't know what you've been running, but this technique would obviously favour multiple, smaller Grotesque squads, rather than one big one. I know it's liable to be a significant loss either way, but it's liable to still be preferable to allowing said Librarian to run around unchecked.

The only other alternative I can think of would be to try and snipe out the Librarian. Unless I'm mistaken, it only has 4 wounds and a 3+ armour save - so DT Hexrifles should actually be quite effective against it. For a laugh, you could even add in a PT Archon with Soul Seeker. Even if you don't kill the Librarian, you should at least be able to force your opponent's hand - as he won't be able to safely hold it back behind the Primaris screen.


Anyway, hope at least some of this helps. Smile

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Oaka
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 09 2020, 15:57

The hard counter I have come up against in my Coven list is the humble Deathwatch Intercessor with auto bolt rifle. Each schmuck is getting 3 shots that wound Grotesques and Taloi on a 2+, usually rerolling hits and wounds. They are useless against vehicles, but that's what his deepstriking Eradicators are for if I try to Grot bomb in a Raider. I am going to try a different approach by trying to kill his rerolls. Right now I have my eyes on the CP black hole that is a Harlie Vanguard:

Vanguard Detachment -3CP (Aeldari - Harlequins) [18 PL, -7CP, 317pts]
Configuration
Detachment CP [-3CP]
Masque Form
Selections: The Dreaming Shadow: Sombre Sentinels
Stratagems
Enigmas of the Black Library (2 Relics) [-3CP]
HQ
Shadowseer [7 PL, 115pts]
Selections: Agent of Bedlam, Mirror of Minds, Shuriken Pistol, Twilight Pathways
Elites
Death Jester [3 PL, 50pts]
Selections: Cegroach's Lament, Humbling Cruelty
Death Jester [3 PL, 50pts]
Selections: Curtainfall, The Jest Inescapable
Solitaire [5 PL, -1CP, 102pts]
Selections: Blitz, Harlequin's Caress, Harlequin's Kiss, Stratagem: Pivotal Role, Unnatural Acrobatics

When I read the rules for Death Jesters with their relic weapons and stratagems, I started to wonder if they could actually snipe a Primaris character. I think they just may be able to do it, along with the Shadowseer power that lets you put MWs on any unit within 24", no LoS required. If it works for Captains/Lieutenants, it should work for Librarians, right? One Death Jester would also be able to prevent Overwatch for the Tyrannofex simply by tagging it.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 09 2020, 18:13

Honestly I am more worried about the enemy shooting phase where the thing gets the full 4D6 shots (you are correct,it can only OW with 2D6). I feel like I should be able to kill the thing with my ranged weaponry, but 6 Lances is just not enough to get through the 5++/5+++. Last game it made NINE 5+++ saves to keep it alive.

I know the solution is to just avoid it, BUT IT MUST DIE! Vect commands it!

Hunh, havent ever thought about being on the receiving end of a poisoned weapon. 2+ to wound sounds horrible with their volume of fire. Do those Intercessors cost more than regular Intercessors? Seems like a prime target for a Dissie Ravager. Far less expensive than a Harlie Patrol (if you want to go Realspace Raider route). Coven units will nearly all evaporate to that firepower (Talos/Chornos got that 3+ which should help), but it would be nearly useless against Wyches or Kabalites. Wyches also get their 4++ in CC, but not sure if you want to be there against Marines and their 4 attacks each :/
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 15 2020, 15:07

@fisheyes wrote:

Hunh, havent ever thought about being on the receiving end of a poisoned weapon. 2+ to wound sounds horrible with their volume of fire. Do those Intercessors cost more than regular Intercessors? Seems like a prime target for a Dissie Ravager. Far less expensive than a Harlie Patrol (if you want to go Realspace Raider route). Coven units will nearly all evaporate to that firepower (Talos/Chornos got that 3+ which should help), but it would be nearly useless against Wyches or Kabalites. Wyches also get their 4++ in CC, but not sure if you want to be there against Marines and their 4 attacks each :/

No one knows the cost as of yet. But, it would be a stretch to think a Gravis T5, 3W unit is going to be the same cost as Intercessors.

And marines don't get 4 attacks in CC. They get 3 when charged, unless they are upgraded using Veteran Intercessors (btw, BS way to create all game strength that would otherwise cost points). I personally hope people take lots of these Heavy Intercessors to counter other marines, only to be shocked by my Wych horde dragging them down with S3 attacks. Otherwise, i see these as a genuine threat to our transports and Reavers.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 15 2020, 18:24

That Heavy 2 Damage flat 3 bolter already has me sweating blood :/

I think lists will be changing rapidly over the next few months. Which I admit is healthy for the Meta, but still sucks from a painting point of view.

Has anyone run into anything else scary against us True Kin? Have not played against Chaos this edition. I also think that 2 man shield drones will be a problem for their ability to screen
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 06 2020, 13:54

We have had 48 hours to think over the new C'Tan rules (specifically the max damage per phase mechanic), has anyone come up with a work around?

Honestly, my gut reaction is "Put DE army away, take out Imperial Guard army". Although I do acknowledge that this tactic is not helpful to many lurkers out there.
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 06 2020, 14:29

here in Québec (Canada) we are in almost complete lockdown (can just go out for work and grocery) so can't play games at all for a while, so luckily our DE Codex will come out before my next game......and we will receive a lot of goodies.....we will be able to face every threats the galaxy has to offer........and.......nah......dreaming in colors right now.....

If nothing changes at least i will be able to start building my Thousand Sons Army :/

But for the C'tan.....the only good strategy for us is just to ignore it (as we have to do every games we play) and only focus on the objectives before we get tabled by turn 3
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 06 2020, 16:09

@fisheyes wrote:
We have had 48 hours to think over the new C'Tan rules (specifically the max damage per phase mechanic), has anyone come up with a work around?

Cause Mortal Wounds in the Movement or Charge Phase. Or, bring Psykers.

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UmJamLam
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 06 2020, 16:28

The C'tan (and in particular the Nightbringer) definitely is a problem for us since we can only deal damage in two phases (three if you count the voidraven or reavers). Your options are basically to ignore it and play the mission, hoping you can survive long enough, or kite him for two turns of shooting, then hope you can do damage to him in HIS fight phase and finish him off in YOUR fight phase, otherwise you'll never be able to kill him as he regens a wound each round.

And then of course Eradicators are a boogeyman for everyone out there bar horde armies. I don't think even talos or grotesques can stand up to 12 melta shots doing d6+4 dmg... it's just ridiculous.
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Oaka
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 06 2020, 17:19

I expect to face a C'tan on a regular basis, so have put a little thought into a counter. It has 8" and Fly, so is basically a Talos, but has no way of moving faster. No stratagems like Fire and Fade, nothing. It can be targeted because it doesn't have Look Out, Sir, so I think it can be kited. Unfortunately the Reaper needs to kill a model to prevent the unit from Advancing, and the Vibro cannon doesn't work on units with Fly. That leaves us with a Humbling Cruelty Death Jester to knock 2" off the movement. If a C'tan advances, it can't use its powers. And, believe it or not, I think splinter fire is perfect for 3 wounds each shooting phase, the Nightbringer only has a 4+ armor save, you can hit and wound with 6 splinter shots no sweat.



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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 06 2020, 17:31

Voidraven is a good counter. Didnt think of that. Dont think you would get lucky enough to do 3 MW so you could kill the thing in 1 turn, but may be enough to get a Turn 2 kill.
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Oaka
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 06 2020, 17:41

It will be pretty funny if my lowly wracks, who lose in combat to scarabs, can take out the Nightbringer on the charge.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 06 2020, 19:40

@Oaka wrote:
I expect to face a C'tan on a regular basis, so have put a little thought into a counter.  It has 8" and Fly, so is basically a Talos, but has no way of moving faster.  No stratagems like Fire and Fade, nothing.  It can be targeted because it doesn't have Look Out, Sir, so I think it can be kited.  Unfortunately the Reaper needs to kill a model to prevent the unit from Advancing, and the Vibro cannon doesn't work on units with Fly.  That leaves us with a Humbling Cruelty Death Jester to knock 2" off the movement.  If a C'tan advances, it can't use its powers.  And, believe it or not, I think splinter fire is perfect for 3 wounds each shooting phase, the Nightbringer only has a 4+ armor save, you can hit and wound with 6 splinter shots no sweat.

It has a 3+ armor save.

I'm likely going to depend on Slashing Impact Reavers with Blasters and Cluster Caltrops. 6 of them over average should do the trick in one turn. But, obviously more is better.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 06 2020, 19:47

As far as C'tan go, I think it's worth remembering that they cost 350pts now. Hence, you can probably let them chew through a unit or two and aim to kill them on turn 2-3.

They can't hide and you're almost certainly going to be doing more damage to them than they'll do by chucking a few Mortal Wounds at you. And since you can wound them with splinter fire, you can save your good weapons for the other Necron units.

In other words, you can basically force the C'tan to come to you. Knock 3 wounds off it with shooting and give it a unit to munch on. If it takes the bait, you can then knock 3 more wounds off it with shooting, and hopefully a further 3 with combat. If it doesn't take the bait, well, just shoot the thing to death over the next couple of turns. Even with its powers, I highly doubt it will accomplish anything worth remotely 350pts.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 07 2020, 01:18

I will again advocate for DT Talos with liquifier guns. If you need to do wounds in an additional phase, inflicting 3 in your opponent's charge phase is pretty handy.

Get them down to 3 and park Talos between them and your lines. They have no options. Sit still and die or charge and die. If you have a Vexator Mask, you can get them down to 6 wounds before they have the choice between charging and dying or standing still and dying.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 07 2020, 13:01

Isnt Overwatch in the same phase as the CC attacks?

Maybe I am thinking of previous editions, the game turn has been split into more "parts" recently, but not sure if they are considered "phases".
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 07 2020, 15:04

the charge phase is a full distinctive phase, so yes it would work
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 07 2020, 16:59

Why not simply avoid it?
The C'tan is the last stuff to fear on Necrons Very Happy
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 08 2020, 18:14

Deployed at the front of the army, with an 8" move on a Fly platform. That thing will control the middle of the board, and not even Grots can trade blows with it (ignores our 4++ and the 6+++).

Never mind their faction specific secondary where they want to take you OUT of table quarters. That one is basically a big middle finger at us Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 09 2020, 06:10

@fisheyes wrote:
Deployed at the front of the army, with an 8" move on a Fly platform. That thing will control the middle of the board, and not even Grots can trade blows with it (ignores our 4++ and the 6+++).

Never mind their faction specific secondary where they want to take you OUT of table quarters. That one is basically a big middle finger at us Razz

Well, we're lucky that every mission in this game force you to spread around the board instead of getting the middle Wink
Think about the rest, let him roaming on the middle, that's it. In 3 turns he is dead.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 11 2020, 02:10

2 turns. 3 is giving it too much time to roam.
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 11 2020, 11:14

@False Son wrote:
2 turns.  3 is giving it too much time to roam.

Yeah if you want to focus it. For me he can roam even for 5 turns Very Happy
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 14 2020, 12:44

Played a few games against Necrons last weekend (with my Guard army), and WOW do the Necrons have some new tricks. Main <Dynasty> for them will be the Custom one where they get Obsec on everything (troops count as double models) and a free before-game move (after they see who gets first/second turn).

The Nightbringer deletes squads, doesnt matter if they are Bullgryn or blobs of infantry. The pre-game move really helps this thing control the mid-board. Luckily Guard can bring a few Primaris Psykers to smite the beast, dont think DE have enough tools to deal with this guy starting 8" into the midfield...
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: Boogey Men of 9th   Boogey Men of 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 14 2020, 13:39

after some review of the new codexes, from what i get, Necrons did receive a big major uplift while the SM did really receive a massive downgrade.
SM will stop messing with us just to let the Necrons take the crown
can't wait to see the Death Guard codex.....i think this will give us a rough look at what to expect for every faction in their coming codex, including ours.
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