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 So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)

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The Strange Dark One
Wych
The Strange Dark One

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Join date : 2014-08-22
Location : Private subrealm of the Eldritch Skies Kabal.

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28 2020, 15:17

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Darklord wrote:

Ant it is a bit worse in melee, where we are no weapons against Vehicules.
Archit Glaive and especially Talos gauntlet with the -1 to hit roll should hhave tis fuction.  

Man, you'd almost think that Haywire Grenades shouldn't have been turned into a Stratagem. Rolling Eyes

Regarding melee weapons, though, I don't think the Archite Glaive should get a bonus against vehicles. Not least because vehicles aren't what Succubi are meant to be fighting in the first place. Just let them take Haywire Grenades again. Combined with a Blast Pistol, they'd at least have a shot of killing a wounded vehicle. Same goes for the Archon.

However, what I would suggest is that the Electrocorrosive Whip should absolutely be given the Haywire property instead of being a Poison weapon. It seems perfectly logical, and would help even out the Haemonculus' wargear selection such that he actually has an anti-vehicle option. I'd change some of the other weapons as well (*cough* Mindphase Garbage *cough*), but to my mind the Electrocorrosive Whip would make the most sense to be an anti-vehicle weapon.

Very much this. If Wych Cults had Haywire Grenades they could feature some seriously strong lists. Even if only every second Wych or Hellion had a single Haywire Throw (MW on 4+, D3 on 6+) it would add ap. I've been thinking of that ever since the rules for tying up vehicles were released.

To be fair, the lore behind the Electrocorrosive Whip is "overloading the nervous system". I think what the Coven arsenal lacks is a dedicated ranged unit. In my dreams, we soon get a plastic kit for Grotesques which also have bits that turn them into a ranged unit that is akin to Obliterators.

Let's call them Aberrants and give them a Haywire Cannon each. Yes, I'd like that very much.
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Barking Agatha
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Barking Agatha

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28 2020, 15:38

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
Well, I think part of the problem is that Darklight weapons were never particularly good.

They were magnificent in a different context.

First, the Lance rule meant that any armour over 12 was wasted, making things like Land Raiders and Necron Monoliths no tougher than a Rhino. Even if you didn't immediately blow them up, you were at least guaranteed a 'Crew Shaken' for that turn, and if you kept shooting at them eventually they would go boom.

Second, we had a lot of them. Who else could bring that many S8 AP2 lance shots? This was before all of this "S7 Heavy10 Damage 2" nonsense.

Even Tyranids have a S7 Heavy 6 gun. Freaking Tyranids. Dark Lances? Still just one shot.

Third by the way, is that Night Shields were amazing when your vehicles were likely to be shot by just one lascannon. Even with a penetrating hit, there was still a 1 in 3 chance of it doing nothing! It made up for Raiders being AV10 all around.

When you have to save a dozen times because everyone has Assault 6, Heavy 10, or even Heavy 20 guns, does 5++ make up for vehicles that are Toughness 5?
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dumpeal
Hekatrix
dumpeal

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28 2020, 16:50

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
Well, I think part of the problem is that Darklight weapons were never particularly good.

In 5th and before, darklight were good. You were wounding anything on a 4+ max, and once wounded, you had a fair chance to 1-shot them.

@Soulless Samurai wrote:

I think Darklight weapons really need more reliable damage. Otherwise, they'll consistently play second fiddle to Disintegrators even against monsters and vehicles.

I disagree with you. I don't want them to give reliable damage. Disintegrators are there for that. but they need to do massive potential damage. 2D6 damage. Or D6 damage, but a second D6 if you wound on a 6. It need to be a high-risk/high-reward weapon.
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fisheyes
Hekatrix
fisheyes

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28 2020, 17:02

I would be happy with just Damage 2D3. That reliability is very nice.

Sidethought: Everyone seems to be gushing over the Reaper with its D6 shot Lance. Other armies would kill to change their D6 shot guns to flat 3 shots (like our Lance Ravagers). Funny how we never use the Lance Ravager, just the Reaper (TBF the Reaper is not locked to Kabals, and isnt giving up Dissies. But still...)
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dumpeal
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dumpeal

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28 2020, 18:21

@fisheyes wrote:
I would be happy with just Damage 2D3. That reliability is very nice.

Sidethought: Everyone seems to be gushing over the Reaper with its D6 shot Lance. Other armies would kill to change their D6 shot guns to flat 3 shots (like our Lance Ravagers). Funny how we never use the Lance Ravager, just the Reaper (TBF the Reaper is not locked to Kabals, and isnt giving up Dissies. But still...)

I don't use lance ravagers because I have other lance options with blasters and blast pistol, while I don't have others dissie choices.
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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
Soulless Samurai

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28 2020, 19:44

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

To be fair, the lore behind the Electrocorrosive Whip is "overloading the nervous system".

Well, it's welcome to have a rule against infantry as well. Wink


@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I think what the Coven arsenal lacks is a dedicated ranged unit.

I mean, that's certainly true for Coven as a whole. However, there's also an issue with every single Coven melee weapon fulfilling the exact same role. What's the point of having half a dozen supposedly different weapons which all end up just doing the same thing?

Wouldn't it be better to refine them a bit - an anti-horde weapon, an anti-vehicle weapon, an anti-elite weapon, maybe an anti-character weapon or one with a weird ability.

Otherwise, might as well just give the Haemonculus one weapon option and ditch the rest entirely.

Anyway, I just thought that the Electrocorrosive whip seemed the most logical choice because a) it's current role is 'Agoniser but objectively better', and b) the name implies that it uses an electrical component, which seems logical for a Haywire weapon. And since Haywire is already a thing, it remains in theme and means no new special rules would need to be thought up.

Alternatively, I suppose you could make a case for Scissorhands. They already look a bit like a can-opener, after all.  Very Happy


@dumpeal wrote:

They were magnificent in a different context.

First, the Lance rule meant that any armour over 12 was wasted, making things like Land Raiders and Necron Monoliths no tougher than a Rhino. Even if you didn't immediately blow them up, you were at least guaranteed a 'Crew Shaken' for that turn, and if you kept shooting at them eventually they would go boom.

Okay, going to be really honest here, People seem to view Dark Lances through rose-tinted glasses at least a foot thick.  Wink

Spoiler:
 

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28 2020, 21:55

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
A lot of stuff.

Yeah, that's fair.

I still say that darklight was pretty good back in 5th edition, though. Not just on Ravagers and Raiders, but on Kabalites and Trueborn, and even on pistols. Between that and haywire grenades on Wyches, I distinctly remember looking at enemy vehicles as one looks at a bowl of chocolates trying to decide which one to eat first.

Oh, such days! When Wyches would charge a Dreadnought and kill it in one go (dying to the explosion, but well...)! When we could kill Tau in melee before they could shoot anything! When a Succubus could fight a meringue Captain and win!

And I swear that this glorious age lasted almost a few months, or however long it was between our 5th edition codex and some fool letting Matt Ward loose on the ultrameringues. It's not just rose-tinted glasses, and sure it had its faults, but when compared to the mediocrity of today it makes one nostalgic for the good old mediocrity of back then.
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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28 2020, 22:18

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
A lot of stuff.

Yeah, that's fair.

I still say that darklight was pretty good back in 5th edition, though. Not just on Ravagers and Raiders, but on Kabalites and Trueborn, and even on pistols. Between that and haywire grenades on Wyches, I distinctly remember looking at enemy vehicles as one looks at a bowl of chocolates trying to decide which one to eat first.

Oh, such days! When Wyches would charge a Dreadnought and kill it in one go (dying to the explosion, but well...)! When we could kill Tau in melee before they could shoot anything! When a Succubus could fight a meringue Captain and win!

And I swear that this glorious age lasted almost a few months, or however long it was between our 5th edition codex and some fool letting Matt Ward loose on the ultrameringues. It's not just rose-tinted glasses, and sure it had its faults, but when compared to the mediocrity of today it makes one nostalgic for the good old mediocrity of back then.

Ah, that might explain our differences in memory, then.

Sadly, I started DE very late in 5th edition, so I think I'd already missed the 'golden age' of the 5th edition book. Sad


This doesn't relate just to DE, but your point about Tau makes me realise just how much I miss the pre-Overwatch era. I liked being able to charge Wyches and the like at enemies tougher than guardsmen without them being immediately vaporised by out-of-turn shooting.

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sekac
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sekac

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 29 2020, 03:55

Haha! Okay, I'm glad I'm not the only one scratching my head at the glowing praise of 5th edition darklight.

People didn't cram 26 in a list because it was so good you just wanted to spam it. It was because you needed 26 yo do what needed to get done.

It's why i said "nuts to that" and went all in on haywire wyches and scourges. Throwing good points after bad, it always felt to me.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 29 2020, 04:05

@Barking Agatha wrote:
but on Kabalites and Trueborn,.
I think darklight was in its prime when we were able to take 10 warriors armed with 2 dark lances for 100 points on the nose.

Ah, the good old days.

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Cerve
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Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 29 2020, 10:55

Ah, the 5th edition...
Where Wyches were just antitank (a lot of tanks on the arenas..)
Where the paint token was so cheesie that the only real competitive way to play it was the exchange in turn 1 (Sathonix into Wracks 1 token, Haemonculus into 20 Hellions 1 token, move, strip both and bring Satho into 20 Hellions = 2 tokens first turn lol)
Where Vect was playable...into a LOT of Khymerae

Yes, yes, it was definitely the best edition for us...sure.

Personally, playing Drukhari now feels way more Drukhari than before. It was cheesy as hell and we basically created the MSU veichles list (because 100+ poison shots was embarassing those times) basically making Tyr and Daemons unplayable. Then GKs arrived, and that was nearly an autolose against them.
Man, that time was terrible..
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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
Soulless Samurai

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 29 2020, 12:41

@Cerve wrote:
Ah, the 5th edition...
Where Wyches were just antitank (a lot of tanks on the arenas..)

Are you sure you're not thinking of 6th edition?

Because that was the first time I heard of Wyches being used for anti-tank in any significant capacity. And as I understood it, it heralded from:
- A change to the way grenades worked (they could now be thrown)
- The fact that units weren't limited to throwing just a single grenade
- The introduction of Hull Points (which could be much more efficiently stripped with Haywire Grenades than with Dark Lances)

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 29 2020, 13:23

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Ah, the 5th edition...
Where Wyches were just antitank (a lot of tanks on the arenas..)

Are you sure you're not thinking of 6th edition?

Because that was the first time I heard of Wyches being used for anti-tank in any significant capacity. And as I understood it, it heralded from:
- A change to the way grenades worked (they could now be thrown)
- The fact that units weren't limited to throwing just a single grenade
- The introduction of Hull Points (which could be much more efficiently stripped with Haywire Grenades than with Dark Lances)

No it was 5th. In 5th you could throw a grenade in combat and each model could. Wyches had Haywire Grenades. 1= nothing, 2-5 = glancing hit, 6= Pen.

Very strong.

ALso for some reason i think they auto hit? I might be remembering a different edition.

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sekac
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@amishprn86 wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Ah, the 5th edition...
Where Wyches were just antitank (a lot of tanks on the arenas..)

Are you sure you're not thinking of 6th edition?

Because that was the first time I heard of Wyches being used for anti-tank in any significant capacity. And as I understood it, it heralded from:
- A change to the way grenades worked (they could now be thrown)
- The fact that units weren't limited to throwing just a single grenade
- The introduction of Hull Points (which could be much more efficiently stripped with Haywire Grenades than with Dark Lances)

No it was 5th. In 5th you could throw a grenade in combat and each model could. Wyches had Haywire Grenades. 1= nothing, 2-5 = glancing hit, 6= Pen.

Very strong.

ALso for some reason i think they auto hit? I might be remembering a different edition.

If I recall correctly, they auto hit if the vehicle hadn't moved, hit on 4+ if they had, and hit on 6 if the vehicle had a WS value. But dreads also only had 2 attacks back then, so wyches could tarpit and drag them down.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 29 2020, 23:51

@sekac wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Ah, the 5th edition...
Where Wyches were just antitank (a lot of tanks on the arenas..)

Are you sure you're not thinking of 6th edition?

Because that was the first time I heard of Wyches being used for anti-tank in any significant capacity. And as I understood it, it heralded from:
- A change to the way grenades worked (they could now be thrown)
- The fact that units weren't limited to throwing just a single grenade
- The introduction of Hull Points (which could be much more efficiently stripped with Haywire Grenades than with Dark Lances)

No it was 5th. In 5th you could throw a grenade in combat and each model could. Wyches had Haywire Grenades. 1= nothing, 2-5 = glancing hit, 6= Pen.

Very strong.

ALso for some reason i think they auto hit? I might be remembering a different edition.

If I recall correctly, they auto hit if the vehicle hadn't moved, hit on 4+ if they had, and hit on 6 if the vehicle had a WS value. But dreads also only had 2 attacks back then, so wyches could tarpit and drag them down.

Unless it was Ferioso.... 4 attacks that each successful hit generated more hits and it was never ending... i have nightmares about that thing lol.

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DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ
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PostSubject: I   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 30 2020, 21:24

Marines should be the stats they are now
I play drukhari and marines
The new heavy bolter and weapon stats also make sense
It was about making units what they should have been all along
But expect the same for other races
I expect splinter cannons to go to damage 2 at some point
Etc as other races weapons will need to be upgraded to make sense with changes
That will take a while but it will happen

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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
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@DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ wrote:
Marines should be the stats they are now
...
It was about making units what they should have been all along

Ludicrously overpowered compared to every other faction and so bloated that they've basically stolen abilities and traits from every other race?


@DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ wrote:

But expect the same for other races


Why?


@DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ wrote:

I expect splinter cannons to go to damage 2 at some point

Oh whoopee. Because if there's one thing I've always wanted, it's D2 on a weapon with no AP.

Who needs 6 melta shots at 24" for 120pts when we can have Splinter Cannons that are marginally less terrible.


@DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ wrote:
Etc as other races weapons will need to be upgraded to make sense with changes

They might need to be but they still won't be.


@DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ wrote:

That will take a while but it will happen

[citation needed]

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DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 31 2020, 00:30

Marines are base level and they start with them first
Chaos follows suit
Then sob and guard
Custodes?
Expect Xenos to all be over hauled in line
They sell models, it's all part of selling specific armies at once
I agree its OP
I've noticed it seems fluffy too
Marines get new kits so come out guns blazing
Other races adapt there kit gets nastier
Fluff and marketing lol
Drukhari Disses are quite well placed to kill Marines so I'm not worried about this
I prefer to play my drukhari at the moment than marines
I prefer a challenge
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DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ
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And I'd expect splinter cannons to be - 1 save atleast
I'm making scourges now with splinter cannons
They will be all the rage with venoms at a future point 😉
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megatrons2nd
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By the time GW gets to us, they'll be on a downplay power kick rather than crank it to 11. I've been burned by GW too many times to believe they will keep this design philosophy through the entire edition. I expect to get hosed, anything better than that is a bonus.

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amishprn86
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We always get shafted someway or another lol. I'll be happy if we just stay the same.

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Denegaar
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I guess Marines will go down to a terrenal level when their Codex hits. If I'm not mistaken, the supplements and PA and Vigilius and all this nonsense should get deprecated when the news rules hit, isn't it?
That and points going up for them should make them more fair.
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Glass Battleaxe
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 01 2020, 18:08

If I could inject a bit of humour to this thread...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/01/the-top-9-space-marine-killers/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40K&utm_content=40kspacemarinekillers01092020&fbclid=IwAR3-0ZKyjmmtMF6ThuQ3LUTNhoF7OklmLGpa3gO5DY3vQ7eEJIz_d3VNLDY

Warhammer Community article about how to kill GW's poster boys - one of which, of course, is GW's poster boys. Glad to see the Ravager featured here, though curious as to why Dark Reapers weren't mentioned.
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Denegaar
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Dark Reapers are a bit of overkill if used to kill SMs, aren't they?

I'm not sure about what to think about that article... are they making fun of the armies? They seem pretty aware that SMs are pretty OP.
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amishprn86
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Nah, b.c lots of marines are 3w+ now and will all be 2w other than scouts.

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