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 So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)

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sekac
Sybarite
sekac

Posts : 357
Join date : 2017-06-03

So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 13:49

@Kalmah wrote:
Everybody is ranting about the SM already when no new Codex are out.
Just look at the leak about the Necron's codex, from my perspective, every faction will receive an uplift in their RESPECTIVE game play (the necrons will now be harder to kill and easier than ever to reanimate).
The SM are supposed to be a big gun and big explosions army, with some strategy alongside, but they're not supposed to be quick, and quick they are not!
So, instead of just ranting, can we just have a positive discussion about what we would like to have in our next codex?
Personally i would love that our poison weapon receive a little uplift, not a bigger damage output or something like that, but more in the school of debuff stuffs, like reducing the movement stats or attack stats of a model being hit by a poison weapon, thus representing the ''poison'' with more fashion.
Also, as someone pointed above, stuffs that will allow us to play around the Strategic Deployment, representing the attacks from the webway, like we could deep strike at 6'' from enemy instead of 9''.
Our transport could be upgraded a little (venom to 6 and Raiders to 12 models).
With those stuffs, by respecting our game play, we would be able to play against SM and have a great game, even if their weapons become all S8 AP-4 d6dam.
As an old Drukhari says: What is the point of a big gun if i'm not there when you shoot?

First, space marines are absolutely incredibly fast if they want to be. Invictus warsuits alone can begin 9" away, move 14, advance, fire 12" range flamer. White scars can move, advance, and charge. Also they can fall back out of combat and still charge. Primaris transports are just as fast as raiders and also fly.

That's the problem with space marines, they are the best at whatever style you want to play. Want speed? White Scars are the best speed army in the game. Want infiltration? Ravenguard are the best infiltration army in the game. And so on.

It is possible that they improve our codex to be on par with space marines later, but honestly, I REALLY doubt they will for 2 reasons:

1) GW has never had a very good grasp of our army. They put work into the 5th edition book because everything was wildly out of date. The 3 books since them have been progressively lazier attempts and updating it. Minimal possible effort to bring our rules in line with the current edition. There's no reason to believe they'll begin to try again.

2) Typically their design philosophy evolves as the edition goes on. Codices released at the beginning of an edition usually seem out of place compared to books at the tail end of the edition. They're starting off with the notion to "crank everything to 11." It would not surprise me one bit to find they slowly start to back off that idea whether intentionally or otherwise. Space marines are being powered up to sell their new models. We should not expect more than 1-2 new models this edition, so there is less incentive to crank us to 11 too.
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Kalmah
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Kalmah

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 14:32

if what you say happens to become true, that along the year they become lazier and lazier upon the release of codexes, and in the end, only the Space Marine are viable, than i will be in the train about bitching the SM. What i say is just: give our faction a chance and wait for the codex! (also, from what i read, everyone playing DE against SM ends up winning the game.......not in the fashionnest way, but still...).
I'm the first to say that releasing the codexes one or two at the time, with some months between every release is a big issue in a game with a competitive scene, but well, that's the world we live in and we gotta accept it or leave it.

also, i'm already tired of hearing that point: they give love to SM because they are the best selling army......DUH!!!! let me tell you that if they give love to another faction for a full year, that new army will become the best selling one! After all the release regarding the SM, even me who don't play SM was almost tempted playing them. So it's just natural that the best selling army is the one receiving the most models and most love from the company making them.
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Skulnbonz
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Skulnbonz

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 15:13

@Kalmah wrote:
wait for the codex!

That sounds like a bad tactical plan. "Wait and hope we get better. "

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Kalmah
Hellion
Kalmah

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 15:30

Skulnbonz: other than complaining or stop playing the game, tell me what is your tactical plan then?
I just try to redirect the discussion in a more positive way rather than just complain and complain and complain and hope that GW read our forum and then make some changes by downgrading SM.
Thats my only point.
In fact, i want to hear some solutions from people other than: GW sucks they gave all the love to SM.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 16:35

@Kalmah wrote:
Skulnbonz: other than complaining or stop playing the game, tell me what is your tactical plan then?

Have you tried poisoning your marine opponent?

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Kalmah
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Kalmah

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 16:58

well, from what i've heard here, everything is useless against SM, so why bother? Wink
No seriously, i was only asking what are your expectations regarding the next Drukhari Codex.
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fisheyes
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 17:05

With the massive increase in cost for our various Poison units/equipment (warriors / splinter cannons), my gut tells me that we will get something in line with what Heavy Bolters got (not nessisarily D2, but something as "big" as that).

I hope it is not "damage roles of 6 cause D2". Having a movement restriction would be very nice (cant advance, or -2" movement).

As someone who has been around since 3ed Edition, I can tell you that generally codex's released in the begining of the edition are generally underpowered (remember Marines at the beginning of 8th?). We didnt get much with our Psykic Awakening because we were first. It is my hope that we get our codex mid-cycle.

My main wish is to get options for new PfP tables, and the ability to take Disintegration Cannons on infantry units (they are man/elf portable in the fluff).

I know that last one is a long shot, but may as well wish big!
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Kalmah
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Kalmah

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 17:51

i sure hope that along the years, GW have learned that every new codex must be more or less at the same power level, or else we just repeat the same issue year and year again...but time will tell Wink

my biggest hope is that our Drukhari codex receive an uplift in the poison weapon department. That with the speed is what makes our army unique. In the lore, knowing that the ''poison'' is in fact a neurotransmiter making every muscle hyperactive thus shaking, it would only make senses that the victim of this poison find himself having a harder time moving (-move), harder time aiming (-hit roll) or less attacks. Before rolling the attack (or phase) we could choose the kind of poison the same way Combat Drugs work for Wyches. There could be one that deals no debuff, but instead inflict 2 damage instead of 1....the possibilities are almost endless!
Would also be fine if our models inside open top transports could be affected by beneficial auras if the unit is in range of a friendly Archon or something like that. Flayed Skull detachment would be very happy about that!.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 18:22

My biggest problem with SM now is their ability to be any army, taking variety (diverse armies that play wildly different) out of the game and making it less fun, the point on GW only giving SM love because they are the best selling army dowsnt sit that well because GW made them the best selling army by giving them the best rules, as mentioned before if they really wanted to they could pick any army, buff then to high heaven and suddenly that army would sell like hotcakes, they wouldn't even really have to introduce new models to the army line ... just make them better. I know it isn't really beneficial to match lore to the tabletop but in the lore Space Marines struggle they are constantly fighting and have accepted help from (grudgingly mind you) Xenos races when they were facing something they could not defeat, if they were as powerful in the lore as they are on the tabletop humanity wouldn't have any enemies left in the Galaxy except for itself and chaos. On the tabletop they just destroy everything and are the best choice for any kind of playtime you want, its starting to feel like other armies exist simply to give them targets to shoot at. I honestly can't think of a playstyle, except swarms and 9th seems to disadvantage swarm armies hard, that Marines can't do, they have speed, they have stealth, gun line armies or charge heavy armies, psycher heavy, mechanized, or straight foot slogging, and none of those armies are at any disadvantage over another. That being said I do get that we don't know what our Codex will look like and there is a possibility that it will be really good and I would love to see what the true kin will look like turned up to 11 if we get the same treatment as Space Marines, however GW has a history of disappointment to contend with in terms of releases for the true kin so ... it would be great for the naysayers to be proven wrong and we get the codex of our dreams, but they also have every reason to be critical of anything GW says

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 18:31

@Kalmah wrote:
tell me what is your tactical plan then?

First off, I already said I could (and did) beat space marines.
The issue is that to do it, I had to throw out how Dark Eldar are supposed to be played, and pretty much use MSU to advantage where he could not kill them all fast enough to win.

Not that I was removing his vital units and deny his objectives with speed, precision strikes and board control.
Nope.
I fed him units until he could not eat anymore, while I hid the rest.

How Fun!

In reality, if you have to dedicate 1500 points of your 2000 point army to even have a 50/50 HOPE of removing a freaking dreadnaught, you tell ME how that is balanced? How is it fair? How is it fun?

I started playing DE because I loved how they were a glass hammer, powerful and fast! You make a mistake, you pay for it dearly. But now? marines hit harder, move faster, and are much much more resilient.

Hoping a codex will change that for us is great, but all I am saying is we should never have gotten to this point in the first place.

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albions-angel
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 18:52

My worry with "just wait for the codex, in the mean time lets discuss what we want to see" is many-fold.

Firstly, usually discussion of what we want to see would be fed back (hopefully) to tournament runners and eventually GW staff, in the hope that they actually implement 1% of it (a vain hope, but a hope nonetheless). Yet the playtesters have already assured us that ALL the codexes (because GW cant read Latin apparently) are DONE. The release is simply staggered for, presumably, a combination of "good business sense" and HYPE reasons. Drop everything at once and your new edition gets a massive spike of interest which is dead 3 months later. Spread it out and you get a dripfeed of cash and interest all season long. So we can speculate all we want, it wont, apparently, do any good. Nor will telling them that we are currently broken and this is what needs fixing. We just have to hope they knew EXACTLY how tough 9th is for DE players and already fixed it. Unfortunately, past experience is not good on this one, and the way the wind is blowing is that DE can still win things, but you need to be literally an expert, at which point you could win with any army.

Secondly, the in addition to saying the codex is done, the playtesters have also said things will be good for DE when it comes out. The issue with this is, itself, twofold. Firstly, the playtesters are encouraged to say that, as if they badmouth it too much, they wont be playtesters for much longer. Secondly, these same playtesters said the points changes and rules changes would be good for us. At best, its "good" for coven. At worst, the whole army got a downgrade RELATIVE to most other armies.

Thirdly, we have the experience from other editions to go on. GW does not seem to want to TRY to understand DE. They made the lore, presumably they could make rules that match. But with each edition, more of our special rules are stripped away, or given to other races, while we receive next to nothing in return. This vastly limits our options AND our general friendlyness. I have seen people IN THIS THREAD saying that now DE is not a first choice army. Lets take a moment and look at that. If we arent a first choice army, WE ARENT AN ARMY. There are some really heavy hitters on this forum, proper tournament players with money to burn. There are also people like me - average players/collectors continuing a childhood hobby. Lets be perfectly, clearly, and in no uncertain terms, honest here. Most people wont have 2 armies. If they do, one will be 40k while the other will be AoS. No average 8 year old gets his first starter box of marines, plays three games in a store, and goes "right, I know the rules, time to level up to Orks now!" It just doesnt happen. Yet each edition is making us harder and harder to play. This will have knock on effects as kids (and adults) pick up DE, give them a shot against friends with equal experience but different armies, and even following the advice of the books (use cover, use speed, flank, etc) WILL LOSE 9 TIMES OUT OF 10. What does that do? Well, it makes the players 1) give up and never play again, or wait until a big rules change, and/or 2) tell their friends to get something else. That, in turn, drives down sales of DE stock. Which apparently signals to GW that they should give up on them (its worth pointing out that my friends are all fairly convinced that this is the last edition for DE as a separate army, and that we and Eldar will become factions of a unified codex before too long regardless of what the lore says).

We shouldnt shy away from the fact that GW screwed up here. Sure, while I want them to drop all the codexes at once, I can see how it would have been stupid from a business standpoint. But they should have at least ensured every army going into 8th was as viable as any other with MINIMAL tactics. A meta will always develop, no matter how simple or complex a game is. As long as the game is robust, the competitive scene will take care of itself. Meta has evolved for both Starcraft II AND draughts. But, and this is key, new players facing new players are just as likely to win with Terran as they are with Zerg or Protos (once they have the 3 play styles down and basic micro), in the same way that new players vs new players are equally likely to win if they are black or red in draughts. With loads of races, balance is harder for 40k, but right now, a new DE player is EXTREMELY unlikely to win vs marines, admech, tau, really anything run by an equally skilled player EVEN if they use cover and fire and fade and such. And saying "Lets be constructive and talk about how the next codex MIGHT fix everything" is essentially tantamount to saying "If it bothers you that much, dont play for 6 months to 2 years with the army you have spent hundreds of pounds on and sunk hundreds of hours into". There IS NO constructive thing to do right now. And OPs like this one should not be heralded as "Yay, a victory" because outside of tournaments, losing 90% of your models and "still" winning on VP never, ever feels like a win to anyone, and getting blasted off the board always, always sucks.

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Kalmah
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Kalmah

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 18:56

i agree with all your points, indeed the SM are now at an indecent power level in regards to other factions, that i can't deny.
My point was only that raising the fist to the sky and complaining all day long won't change a thing......at all.
The point has been put to attention, but now we have to look forward to what we can do to help mitigate the situation.
What in the future could help us deal with those pesky SM? That is the question now we should raise.
Do you think that if we gain more speed or move we will be able to bypass those SM? More firepower? more transport? More toughness? Its already too late and nothing can be done?
I know this won't change a thing either to daydream, but at least hope keeps a man alive Wink
Sorry, i'm Canadian so i'm more on the positive side of the story Wink
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Barking Agatha
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Barking Agatha

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 20:02

@Cerve wrote:
Usually the game is: I'm faster, I do more points than him, I lose nearly 1000-1800 points, the game ends and I have way more VPs than him.

@Kalmah wrote:
(also, from what i read, everyone playing DE against SM ends up winning the game.......not in the fashionnest way, but still...).

You're both missing the point. Yes, you can win by having more VPs, but we play to have fun. We want to fight a battle and be a fearsome enemy, not run around scoring points while being massacred like ducks at a shooting gallery.

If simply scoring more VPs than your opponent is fun for you, that's fine. I want to blow up tanks and make space meringues cry.

@Kalmah wrote:
also, i'm already tired of hearing that point: they give love to SM because they are the best selling army......DUH!!!! let me tell you that if they give love to another faction for a full year, that new army will become the best selling one! After all the release regarding the SM, even me who don't play SM was almost tempted playing them. So it's just natural that the best selling army is the one receiving the most models and most love from the company making them.

They will never give that much love for a full year to any other army. Trust us, we know.

@Kalmah wrote:
I just try to redirect the discussion in a more positive way rather than just complain and complain and complain and hope that GW read our forum and then make some changes by downgrading SM.

No one here thinks there's a hope of them downgrading the meringues. What we're hoping for is that our anguished wails of despair will reach GW's calloused ears, and perhaps touch their cold, dead hearts, and maybe they'll take pity on us and spend more than a quick lunch break writing the rules in our new codex, as they've done before.

@Kalmah wrote:
So, instead of just ranting, can we just have a positive discussion about what we would like to have in our next codex?

Okay. What I want?

- More generic characters with buffs and abilities that help our units. Buffs that aren't as 'meh' as they currently are, and that help all of our units, not just their own kabal, cult, or coven.
- Extra room in Raiders and Venoms for a character.
- Options to put characters on bikes and skyboards.
- Bring back Sliscus, Sathonyx, Malys, Kheradruakh, and sure why not, Kruellagh.
- Vect and the Dais of Destruction
- Shredders and Blasters for Wyches, like they used to have.
- Jink saves for Reavers and Hellions.
- Eviscerating Fly-By built in for Reavers and Hellions.
- Two wounds on Hellions.
- Improve darklight weapons by making them always wound on 4+ (like they used to) and do D3+3 damage.
- Improve splinter poisons by giving them a way to get through armour saves.
- Make 'Inured to Suffering' 5+ instead of 6+
- Make the Archite Glaive and the Huskblade at least as good as an Exarch's sword.
- Open-topped vehicles let us disembark from them after they move.
- Archons can have blasters if they want to.
- Make Raiding Force better than 'bring three patrols and break out even'.
- Or better, let us have our Obsessions without going through the restrictive process of having to bring multiple detachments.
- Powerful stratagems to match what other armies have.

That's what I want, off the top of my head. What I expect, though:

- Copy/Paste of Phoenix Rising.
- A handful of hastily conceived stratagems that will have very little effect for their cost, at least one of which will either A) contain the 'Asuryani' or 'Harlequin' keyword, because they forgot to change it, or B) Refer to psychic powers, because they forgot that we don't have any.
- A new plastic model of a character, either Lelith or 'Hey look! Kruellagh found her pants!'
- The Reaper added to the codex, with a new plastic model.
- New plastic Grotesques, no rules change.
- Drazhar and Incubi improved, 'cause they're already done and no one's buying them.
- Hellions, Beasts, and the Court of the Archon eliminated from the game.
- Urien retired. Joins Malys and Vect in the gin bar, reminiscing about old times.

See, I can be positive! Very Happy

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Kalmah
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Kalmah

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 20:43

Barking Agatha, now that is a constructive post!
All the points you are asking for are fully legit. Especially the ones regarding the capacity of transports (it's really a pain to have your HQ running behind all your transported troops) and the one about the Raiding Force. Note that even with more CP, our stratagems are still way behind other factions.
Dark weapon (dark lance especially) should indeed be more powerful.

i know that we wont receive all those gifts, we're probably gonna be disappointed, but i still have faith in GW.....i'm still a rookie in this game so i'll learn my way with GW, but i sure believe that if this game have survived for more than 30 years, the vast majority of people has played this game for decades, there must be something that they do well.....
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 21:20

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@Kalmah wrote:
tell me what is your tactical plan then?
In reality, if you have to dedicate 1500 points of your 2000 point army to even have a 50/50 HOPE of removing a freaking dreadnaught, you tell ME how that is balanced? How is it fair? How is it fun?

Lol, I just got a flash-back of Futurama where Zap Brannagan defeated the Killbots by sending wave after wave of his own men into the meatgrinder until the Bots reached their programmed kill-limit and shut down XD

Honestly guys I dont think we are as badly off as we think we are. I personally would not be happy if we were S Tier and everyone flocked to the True Kin. I actually got kinda pissed in early 8th when we were the biggest and bestest and every Little Tommy at the FLGS was buying up our stuff.

"NO TOMMY, THATS MY RAVAGER!!!"

Maybe I am just weird that way
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 22:15

@Kalmah wrote:
... but i still have faith in GW....

Ha! Good one Very Happy

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 23:17

@Kalmah wrote:
i know that we wont receive all those gifts, we're probably gonna be disappointed

I doubt we will get any of those.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 23:28

@fisheyes wrote:
Honestly guys I dont think we are as badly off as we think we are. I personally would not be happy if we were S Tier and everyone flocked to the True Kin. I actually got kinda pissed in early 8th when we were the biggest and bestest and every Little Tommy at the FLGS was buying up our stuff.

"NO TOMMY, THATS MY RAVAGER!!!"

Maybe I am just weird that way

I don't think DE are in a perfect spot right now, but the vast majority of my complaints about the state of 40k currently are less "Dark Eldar are too weak" and more "the last year of Space Marine updates has broken the game."
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2020, 00:09

@Archon_91 wrote:
I would love to see what the true kin will look like turned up to 11

As an aside, I'd very much take fun over power level at this point.

Having a better selection of HQs who are actually allowed wargear and more rules beyond 'absolute baseline aura mechanic' would fix ~90% of my issues with the DE codex.


(I also approve wholeheartedly of Barking Agatha's list.)

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Oaka
Hellion
Oaka

Posts : 33
Join date : 2020-08-02

So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2020, 00:34

DE got hit hard when GW eliminated all unit choices that don't have models.  It basically gutted the codex of options.  I would love it if these options returned but it is unlikely to be anything more than a trickle of one new model at a time.  It's criminal that this guy doesn't exist simply because GW couldn't be bothered to make their own.So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 001418251822_2019-07-24_03-36-07

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sekac
Sybarite
sekac

Posts : 357
Join date : 2017-06-03

So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2020, 01:35

Yeah I don't really care about being a "powerful" army as much as I want to play an army that I enjoy playing with, win or lose and regardless of opposing army. I want army that feels right, and that I can mold to fit the theme of my army.

For instance the basic lore for my army in 5th was a raiding force banished from Commorragh that set out to explore the webway more than any other DE had. They ventured to Shaa-dom and made a pact with essentially a mandrake "demon prince".

I converted a large, leaping mandrake model as my "counts as" Baron Sathonyx who lead a large blob of beasts out of webway portals every game.

Mandrakes were absolutely terrible back then, they couldn't even shoot until they had a pain token (ie kill a unit), but I never took less than 10 in a list, and I worked my ass off to try to get value out of them. I'd have a starting wall of grotesques with haemonculi at either end with webway portals.The mandrakes would infiltrate mid-board, and "Baron" would deploy with grots. Turn 1, I'd move up and deploy portals. Turn 2, "Baron" would either carry a pain token to mandrakes, or jump into my giant beast pack blob.

I had big squads of wyches with haywire grenades and minimal venoms/ravagers. I LOVED that army. It wasn't super powerful, but it was whacky, weird, nobody had any idea what was happening. I got pretty good with it because I was passionate and I knew it through-and-through.

But that army is dead, gone, and it's grave desecrated.

Baron? Gone
Webway portals? Gone
Haywire grenades to reduce darklight addiction? Gone
Beastpack? A taxidermed husk of what they used to be.
Large blobs of wyches? Non-functional
True born fire support? Gone

Now, I have waited a decade for mandrakes to be good, and they finally are what I always wanted them to be, but the ability to make them the center of my theme is gone. There's no connective tissue, they're simply tacked onto a list.

I can build a list to handle marines. But it isn’t a list I want to play. We just don't have much in the way of choices anymore. Our biggest choices now are which obsessions to assign to the obvious inclusions:

Are my ravagers FS or BH?
Are my Voidravens Kabal or ToS wych?
Are my Talos DT, PoF, or both?

The ingredients of our lists are largely dictated. We're merely allowed to tamper with relative mix and spicing.
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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
Soulless Samurai

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2018-04-02

So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 27 2020, 11:46

@sekac wrote:
Yeah I don't really care about being a "powerful" army as much as I want to play an army that I enjoy playing with, win or lose and regardless of opposing army. I want army that feels right, and that I can mold to fit the theme of my army.

For instance the basic lore for my army in 5th was a raiding force banished from Commorragh that set out to explore the webway more than any other DE had. They ventured to Shaa-dom and made a pact with essentially a mandrake "demon prince".

I converted a large, leaping mandrake model as my "counts as" Baron Sathonyx who lead a large blob of beasts out of webway portals every game.

Mandrakes were absolutely terrible back then, they couldn't even shoot until they had a pain token (ie kill a unit), but I never took less than 10 in a list, and I worked my ass off to try to get value out of them. I'd have a starting wall of grotesques with haemonculi at either end with webway portals.The mandrakes would infiltrate mid-board, and "Baron" would deploy with grots. Turn 1, I'd move up and deploy portals. Turn 2, "Baron" would either carry a pain token to mandrakes, or jump into my giant beast pack blob.

I had big squads of wyches with haywire grenades and minimal venoms/ravagers. I LOVED that army. It wasn't super powerful, but it was whacky, weird, nobody had any idea what was happening. I got pretty good with it because I was passionate and I knew it through-and-through.

But that army is dead, gone, and it's grave desecrated.

Baron? Gone
Webway portals? Gone
Haywire grenades to reduce darklight addiction? Gone
Beastpack? A taxidermed husk of what they used to be.
Large blobs of wyches? Non-functional
True born fire support? Gone

For what it's worth, your army concept sounded fantastic (though I'll admit to being biased as I love Mandrakes in general Razz ). I'm sorry that, as with so many fun concepts, it was lost entirely due to our losing so many units and options.

I don't suppose you have any pictures of your converted Baron Sathonyx?


@sekac wrote:

I can build a list to handle marines. But it isn’t a list I want to play. We just don't have much in the way of choices anymore. Our biggest choices now are which obsessions to assign to the obvious inclusions:

Are my ravagers FS or BH?
Are my Voidravens Kabal or ToS wych?
Are my Talos DT, PoF, or both?

The ingredients of our lists are largely dictated. We're merely allowed to tamper with relative mix and spicing.

Yeah, this is where I am at the moment. I just can't get inspired about list-building because so much of it just feels like pallet-swapping the same units.


@sekac wrote:
Now, I have waited a decade for mandrakes to be good, and they finally are what I always wanted them to be, but the ability to make them the center of my theme is gone. There's no connective tissue, they're simply tacked onto a list.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels the exact same way.

I saw someone else comment on a similar matter recently. Not Mandrakes specifically, but rather how the perception of units and their interactions has changed since 8th. It used to be that units were included because of tactical synergy. Now, granted, there were a few abilities you could play around with - like Haemonculi and their Pain Tokens. But the vast majority of units had no direct interaction with one another, so you instead included ones that fulfilled useful tactical rolls. e.g. you might include Mandrakes to try and hold objectives inside cover (especially when Dangerous Terrain rules were a thing for vehicles and bikes), or perhaps to provide supplemental anti-infantry ability.

Now, though, it seems almost everything is based around either direct interactions (most notably through auras and the like), or else the ability to enhance a given unit via Stratagems. So rather than looking for tactical combinations, you're instead looking to fire off MTG-esque combos, all of which are decided before the game even starts.

I don't know, it just seems like the game has moved in very much the wrong direction.

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Darklord
Hellion
Darklord

Posts : 55
Join date : 2018-02-21

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28 2020, 11:46

Our arsenal is also a source of frustration.
Many of ours weapons lack a bit of power and no abilities to help it.
That's particularly striking when we are against a monster like a Leviathan Dreadnought .

I think too our technologies are not really advanced compared to others factions

If darklight weapons could have damage caracteristic less random (2D3), Void weapons must have a flat score (or give MW on 6).

Ant it is a bit worse in melee, where we are no weapons against Vehicules.
Archit Glaive and especially Talos gauntlet with the -1 to hit roll should hhave tis fuction.







Today with recent links, I hope we will have more that a simple "Heavy Bolter D2" update .
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fisheyes
Hekatrix
fisheyes

Posts : 1200
Join date : 2016-02-18

So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28 2020, 13:18

I would also love some sort of love for Darklight weaponry. S8 Ap-4 Dd6 just doesnt cut it when compared to the new Eliminators.

Although TBF, those Eliminators are clearly undercosted. Every list is taking 3x3 of them, and they wreck anything they get into range of. Luckily they dont have a ++Sv.... yet XD

Has anyone tried Raider Dissie spam against these Meta Marine lists? I am starting to feel that the mobility/firepower/may be worth it against a Marine Meta, especially when backed up by Coven flesh-monsters
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Soulless Samurai
Hekatrix
Soulless Samurai

Posts : 1169
Join date : 2018-04-02

So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28 2020, 13:50

@Darklord wrote:
Our arsenal is also a source of frustration.
Many of ours weapons lack a bit of power and no abilities to help it.
That's particularly striking when we are against a monster like a Leviathan Dreadnought .

I think too our technologies are not really advanced compared to others factions

Well, I think part of the problem is that Darklight weapons were never particularly good.

In 7th, you were looking at 3 Ravagers firing for half the game at a single Chimera in order to average a kill.

And while their current incarnation is at least an improvement on that, it hasn't really done much to make them good relative to other weapons. They still, if anything, seem inferior to the humble Lascannon - as +1S and +12" range seem far more useful than an extra pip of AP.

I wonder if they also suffer from being mirrors of Brightlances, which are much more widely available within the Eldar army, and so perhaps have to be treated more cautiously. Except that Eldar also have many other options for when Brightlances aren't very good.

I think Darklight weapons really need more reliable damage. Otherwise, they'll consistently play second fiddle to Disintegrators even against monsters and vehicles.


@Darklord wrote:

Ant it is a bit worse in melee, where we are no weapons against Vehicules.
Archit Glaive and especially Talos gauntlet with the -1 to hit roll should hhave tis fuction.  

Man, you'd almost think that Haywire Grenades shouldn't have been turned into a Stratagem. Rolling Eyes

Regarding melee weapons, though, I don't think the Archite Glaive should get a bonus against vehicles. Not least because vehicles aren't what Succubi are meant to be fighting in the first place. Just let them take Haywire Grenades again. Combined with a Blast Pistol, they'd at least have a shot of killing a wounded vehicle. Same goes for the Archon.

However, what I would suggest is that the Electrocorrosive Whip should absolutely be given the Haywire property instead of being a Poison weapon. It seems perfectly logical, and would help even out the Haemonculus' wargear selection such that he actually has an anti-vehicle option. I'd change some of the other weapons as well (*cough* Mindphase Garbage *cough*), but to my mind the Electrocorrosive Whip would make the most sense to be an anti-vehicle weapon.

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