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 So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)

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amishprn86
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amishprn86

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 10 2020, 13:00

@Scrz wrote:
Just to be clear I think 8th/9th is better than all the older editions when it comes to rules clarity, balance, ease of use etc. It is just that the rules are also incredibly boring, slightly stupid and immersion breaking.
No vehicle facings? So no point in having superior speed to try and get behind stuff to blow it up. Just march things straight up the board and create a big multi brawl in the middle. ever. single. game.

To a point, but what is more immersion breaking, moving and shooting everything at once and not letting the opponent counter move and shoot? Or not having armor facings? For me IGOUGO is so much more immersion killing than some rules on how vehicles are hurt. APOC did such a better job at it.

Anything can hurt everything? Brings me back to command and conquer when you had infantrymen lighting buildings on fire with their rifles.
Shoot that storm talon with your Ossefactor and mutate its plane-bones! Makes no sense you say? Just forge the narrative harder.
Land raiders still die in one turn so no help from the new wound/tier system there.
And I know it seems weird to want to be able to accidentally clip your own troops with a stray blast template, but when I play DE, and when it does not hit the Archon mind you, I classify that as a real good time.

This i do miss a lot and I've been saying it sense the start of 8th

It is like the difference between WOW classic and WOW retail, or D&D 3.75 ( pathfinder ) and D&D 4/5.
Some people like one and dislike the other for being too simplistic/complex.
This is also the reason chess never appealed to me. How did the knight kill the peasant? Did he ride him down, spilling his brains on the cobblestones? Deftly parrying his amateurish thrust with the pitchfork and stabbing him in the neck? How many turns did it take him to bleed out? What will the difficulty roll be on a revive spell? And if the spell is successful how likely is he to lose stat points due to being crippled?
These are the questions I need answers to in my game system or I get bored.
Which is why I play Rolemaster I suppose.  I love you

7th ed 40K as a whole was pure trash and I would never want to go back to it. Unbalanced formations that gives hundreds of points of free stuff to certain factions, and lords of war with destroyer weapons in 1000 pts games is not fun. But the core of the game system was pretty solid. Which is why it lives on in Horus heresy and is continually, albeit very slowly, being improved by Forgeworld.
And it is directly compatible with the 5th 6th dexes. Including the last Dark Eldar codex that had some flavor.
I want to spend a week mulling over the perfect list, and I want the game to last for 4 hours. And that is why new Warhammer is not for me.

IMO 7th was the a good edition, it was just a few things that made it bad and those were added later into 7th (formations, dog fights,  and super powers), as a core the rules are great other than 3 things, Hull Points, D weapons, and Challenges. It had some bloat but they just need to clean up the game a bit. I'd rather go back to playing 7th pre formation than all of 8th. Every edition has problems, 5th was missions, 6th was 6th, 7th was HP's and formations, 8th was way to streamline and same level of power creep that formations added.

To stay on topic and rant a little about the marines.
The thing that bothers me the most about them apart from the fact that they invalidate all the old minimarines by being twice as good as them but not costing twice as many points, is the fluff.
I have apparently been falsely led to believe that space marines were invaluable and hard to produce, relying on technology that was no longer understood only blindly replicated. And that wargear was so costly and time consuming to manufacture that many chapters literally had dudes running around in heresy era suits because getting supplies around in the galaxy in the rate that it is needed is impossible.
Except when you invent new geneseed and new suits of armor and new weapons and are able to mass produce it fast enough to rearm and resupply the ENTIRE galaxy in a couple of hundred years. Including the half that it is impossible to travel to. It makes the last 10.000 years of struggles seem a little... silly.

You can't expect not to be able to reverse engineer after 1000 years though, there was to be a point in the story they are able to build new technology or learn from old, spinning wheels with no progression isn't a realistic story for a world build around war, war which gives more progression than anything else.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 10 2020, 13:43

Quote :
IMO 7th was the a good edition, it was just a few things that made it bad and those were added later into 7th (formations, dog fights, and super powers), as a core the rules are great other than 3 things, Hull Points, D weapons, and Challenges. It had some bloat but they just need to clean up the game a bit. I'd rather go back to playing 7th pre formation than all of 8th. Every edition has problems, 5th was missions, 6th was 6th, 7th was HP's and formations, 8th was way to streamline and same level of power creep that formations added.

I think there were a few more issues than that (stuff like a lot of pointless USRs - Fear, Soulfire etc.).

But yeah, I think 7th could have been a great edition with relatively few changes.

But maybe I'm biased because I loved the Corsairs book... which 8th promptly removed. I don't care how good the rules are for 8th, I still won't forgive it for that. Evil or Very Mad

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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 10 2020, 15:16

@amishprn86 wrote:


To a point, but what is more immersion breaking, moving and shooting everything at once and not letting the opponent counter move and shoot? Or not having armor facings? For me IGOUGO is so much more immersion killing than some rules on how vehicles are hurt. APOC did such a better job at it.
IGOUGO is a little stale I'd have to admit. I like how they have structured the game turns in AoS and Killteam more than 7th ed for sure.
The armor facing thing is not that immersion breaking either. Rather, it goes under the list of things that make the game boring, by taking away complexity and strategy options.
The most immersion breaking point for me would be that the guardsman takes time off from his busy schedule to stop and pop a shot with his las pistol at the fighter jet roaring over his head.


@amishprn86 wrote:


It had some bloat but they just need to clean up the game a bit. I'd rather go back to playing 7th pre formation than all of 8th.


They did and you can! It looks like this and it costs an arm and a leg:  Razz So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 60040187061_AgeofDarknessRulebook01
Ask your friend with the beard. He's down with trying old things.

@amishprn86 wrote:

You can't expect not to be able to reverse engineer after 1000 years though, there was to be a point in the story they are able to build new technology or learn from old, spinning wheels with no progression isn't a realistic story for a world build around war, war which gives more progression than anything else.

But but but....I want to rage against the dying of the light. Crying or Very sad
And realism is exactly the very last thing I'd expect or want from the Warhammer setting. cheers

@Soulless Samurai wrote:

But maybe I'm biased because I loved the Corsairs book.
The old doom of mymeara book is 100% compatible with The Horus heresy age of darkness ruleset.
My Corsair prince get stop pretending to be a craftworld twonk and field regular wasp walkers and hornets again. afro
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 10 2020, 18:13

I do hate that Corsairs are gone... it really did piss me off especially when Corsairs invented 8th/9th.

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 11 2020, 02:05

@Scrz wrote:

The most immersion breaking point for me would be that the guardsman takes time off from his busy schedule to stop and pop a shot with his las pistol at the fighter jet roaring over his head.

I disagree. The MOST immersion breaking thing is a guardsmen taking time off from his busy schedule to stop, point his flamer at the sky, and auto-hit a fighter jet roaring over head.

It should just do D3 mortal wounds to his own squad as burning promethium rains down on their heads.

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Dreadblizzaard
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 11 2020, 02:56

Hahaha! This I agree with completely. My crimson hunter Exarch took a bunch of wounds from that. It was a salamander Sargent with some special BS that really, well ya know. That's one of the top 5 things that need to be fixed.

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 11 2020, 07:43

@Dreadblizzaard wrote:
Hahaha! This I agree with completely. My crimson hunter Exarch took a bunch of wounds from that. It was a salamander Sargent with some special BS that really, well ya know. That's one of the top 5 things that need to be fixed.
In an other game you must add 12" to ranged attacks against fyers.
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 11 2020, 14:46

I also dislike the change with the Nu Marines where everything is roses and rainbows. I got into 40k because of those stories about the Marine needing to replace portions of his armor, but the new armor was terrible and didnt function as well as the old stuff. Stagnation and decay everywhere. Honestly, I am currently looking at converting my Old Marines into Chaos. Those Night Lord novels where they are running around scavanging armour from fallen friends/foes really has the old feel I am looking for.

Ill second Horus Heresy if you want 7th edition rules. Personally I hated the Invisible Deathstar units of old. Those days SUCKED, and I am more than happy to exist in 9th (even with Marines being as strong as they currently are).
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 11 2020, 15:24

On the subject of Invisibility, I can't help but feel that 40k has never managed to get psychic powers right.

7th was obviously a mess, having basically ported in 8th edition WHFB's magic system wholesale, compete with unbalanced powers, random tables, random psychic dice, random rolls, and terrible inter-faction balance (if your opponent was GKs or Daemons, you'd probably have time to go make yourself a sandwich while they conducted their psychic phase).

8th/9th have, in theory, fixed quite a bit of the above, but they've replaced it with a psychic phase with next to no decisions. You pick a power, roll a set number of dice, and see if you hit the magic number. It's about as strategic as a game of Yahtzee. I suppose it seems like a shame, as it seems aspects of 7th's system (resource-management and/or being able to add extra dice with a greater risk of suffering Perils) might have worked a lot better better with 8th's toned-down powers.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 11 2020, 20:44

I don't understand, all of 40k is Yahtzee though

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 12 2020, 23:02

@amishprn86 wrote:
I don't understand, all of 40k is Yahtzee though

Doesn't mean I have to like it. Wink



On a different note, did you know that SMs are getting a Primaris troop unit with 3 wounds apiece?

Sucks to be Tyranid Warriors.

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 13 2020, 06:28

you've seen everything that's coming for them?
The speeder with 16'' movement and packed with a load of arsenal....now they have the speed and punch all in one! i sure hope they will cost a lot of points to include!

Necrons too will be to look at too!!

And now we will have to wait for sure 2021 before they reveal the first Xenos codex outside Necrons....and something tells me this will be the Orks....i sure hope i'm wrong!
Meanwhile 3 suplements for SM and the Codex for Death Guards....grim days on the horizon for us!
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 13 2020, 09:33

The good news is that based on teases I think it's pretty safe to guess that Orks and Dark Eldar are the first Xenos Codexes of the edition.

The bad news is that, yes, Marines get even more crap to play with before then.
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Denegaar
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 13 2020, 10:03

I'm not in a hurry to get our Codex, with the book creep they tend to use for sales, it will get outdated in less than a year.
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 13 2020, 10:07

@Kalmah wrote:
you've seen everything that's coming for them?
The speeder with 16'' movement and packed with a load of arsenal....now they have the speed and punch all in one! i sure hope they will cost a lot of points to include!

Oh good. Glad to know that Marine transports now outpace DE ones.

I foolishly thought that GW might restrain themselves from handing over the last piece of our faction identity to Marines. Rolling Eyes


Hell, is there even a point to playing DE at this point? When these new models drop, it seems you could have a count-as Marine army that's both faster and more effective than any DE one.

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 13 2020, 10:08

There's no good option for when our book could release in this edition. If it's early it gets power creeped out, later and we have to suffer for most of the edition against factions that have improved rules and sustantially buffed stats.

I'd probably prefer an early Codex with the (exceptionally optimistic) hope that we get some additional love later with supplements or expansions.

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@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Kalmah wrote:
you've seen everything that's coming for them?
The speeder with 16'' movement and packed with a load of arsenal....now they have the speed and punch all in one! i sure hope they will cost a lot of points to include!

Oh good. Glad to know that Marine transports now outpace DE ones.

I foolishly thought that GW might restrain themselves from handing over the last piece of our faction identity to Marines. Rolling Eyes


Hell, is there even a point to playing DE at this point? When these new models drop, it seems you could have a count-as Marine army that's both faster and more effective than any DE one.

There's nothing new about this. The Land Speeder Storm's existed for a long time; it's an 18" movement open-topped transport that can carry five Scouts, and is only 55 points including weapons.

That nobody pays it any attention at all is just a symptom of how completely overloaded the Marine Codex is at this point.
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Denegaar
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Maybe I agree, I'd be fine with a February-ish Codex once we already know how the edition is going to look.

We play Dark Eldar because we love Dark Eldar. Those Space Marine models are so awfully ugly that I would not play them even if payed to do so, the new buggy or the landraider that was revealed yesterday... haha is that a joke?
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 14 2020, 14:05

I just about pooped a goat when I read the weapons these Heavy Intercessor troops get. Those new bolters are more powerful than our Dissies.

Hopefully they cost about 200 points for a unit.

I am salty over those weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 14 2020, 15:30

Our Scourges have the same PR of 7 now.
Does it mean an uptade of Drukhari arsenal?
Or I dream too much.
It is the cost to have FLY and Winged Strike.

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@Darklord wrote:
Our Scourges have the same PR of 7 now.
Does it mean an uptade of Drukhari arsenal?
Or I dream too much.
It is the cost to have FLY and Winged Strike.

It's probably the cost of PfP. Because rerolling charges and hitting on 2s in melee makes Scourges unstoppable killing machines.

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The new space marine codex will have 98 datasheets. Space Marines also now have specialist units that can simulate the themes of any Xenos army style. WYSIWYG has been removed as a rule. See where I'm going with this?

Those Heavy Intercessors are Kabalites with splinter cannons. And that new landspeeder is a shoe-in for a Ravager.
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 16 2020, 07:35

The way you are all jumping for joy about the new reveals, cements my belief that I have made the correct decision in jumping ship because it looks to me like 40K has jumped the shark.

It is a strange feeling to read new SM rules and feel zero rage.
The way things are going now I won't be surprised if the only new rules you will get is via Codex supplement Drukhari as an add on to Codex Aeldari.

I'm thinking that the next primaris release will be a super agile unit with marines surfing on thunderstorm sky-boards, that has 14" move, an under-slung heavy las cannon ( that somehow is smaller than the regular las cannon ) and can use a strategem to inflict mortal wounds with their chain glaives on any unit it moves over.
It will be an OKish CC unit that will have no real advantage over other choices in the SM codex.
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 16 2020, 21:35

Looking at the newst update, it kind of sounds like a nerf to the overall power of Speehs Marines ... the addition of "Core" and auras changing to not affecting the character they are coming from and other characters around them tones down what was an extremely powerful chain of auras on characters ... and it terms of us ... probably doesn't change anything ... we barely get to play with the auras we have and they are pretty much useless anyway plus they also mentioned that some vehicles would recieve the "core" description so there is a chance that Ravagers will still benefit from their Archon screaming the words of vect at them
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 17 2020, 12:32

Results out of a decent sized Tournament in Norway had no marines in the Top 3. Demons, Harlies and Ad Mech.

I have not read all the lists or the tournament results (I think there were a number of Marines in Top 10), but the sky may not be falling as we think.

Just saying.
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