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 So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)

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Barking Agatha
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Barking Agatha

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PostSubject: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 24 2020, 17:49

So, I haven't played much in ages. I've played a few games of 9th edition against Necrons, Deff Guard, and the like, but yesterday was the first time I played against those wonderful space meringues that I love so much. They were Ultrameringues too, even better!

To make it short:

a) Technically I won, but...
b) It was awful and I didn't have much fun, and...
c) It's put me off from playing again, until something changes (if it ever does)


See, there's this thing called a 'Leviathan Dreadnought', or as I would call it, 'Cheating Piece of Are You Kidding Me Dreadnought'. Insanely powerful and very hard to kill on its own, BUT... there's also this fella (Hadrian or Caesar or Tiberius or something like that) that makes him -1 to hit every turn AND makes him Toughness 9, AND there's this other fella that heals his wounds every turn, AND there's Gilligan behind him letting him re-roll everything in case he even needs to.

So this thing, for example, killed 10 wyches standing on an objective, one ravager that had been vainly trying to hurt it, and then charged 2 Talos and killed them, all in one turn.

I had also forgotten the sheer *abundance* of crazy fun rules that ultrameringues get: doctrines! chapter tactics! stratagems and more stratagems! bolter disciplines! flying guys with cannons! At one point my Archon (in desperation) charged at those flying guys, only to find that not only can they do Overwatch, three other units nearby can join in as if they were Tau, including the aforementioned Leviathan, with re-rolls for everything of course.

Admittedly this does sound like a lot of fun... for the meringue player. I would love to be able to play around with combining rules and buffs and powerful units like that. Except all I have is the good old rules that didn't quite keep up with 8th edition, and a handful of mediocre options from Phoenix Rising that seem more and more like a joke in very poor taste.

I'm not saying that the game is unplayable (I did technically win, after all), but how is any of this supposed to be fun?

I'm going back on strike! I will not play any more Warhammers 40K until my demands have been met! Let the new codex come out, and let it not be the disappointing rubbish I expect it to be, and then we'll see. Very Happy

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Burnage
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 24 2020, 19:25

Not disagreeing with your overall point, but be grateful that you never went up against an Iron Hands Leviathan at the peak of their nonsense. The current Marines have actually been scaled drastically back from their strength levels eight or nine months ago, and it still feels like they're playing a different game to almost every other faction.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 24 2020, 19:52

You will learn that there are some units you should not try to kill. You need to focus on everything else and when it'll become alone on the field, it won't be much a threat anymore. But yeah, meringue is a flavor GW really love.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 24 2020, 20:00

Yeah it's pretty much impossible to enjoy games against space marines. That's why GW is pushing everyone to play space marines. Then there's nothing to complain about.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 24 2020, 20:05

@sekac wrote:
Yeah it's pretty much impossible to enjoy games against space marines. That's why GW is pushing everyone to play space marines. Then there's nothing to complain about.


Nothing prevent tournament organizers to host special tournaments "xenos only". If they become popular and spaces marines will be out of most tournaments, maybe gw will fix them.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 25 2020, 00:01

@dumpeal wrote:
You will learn that there are some units you should not try to kill. You need to focus on everything else and when it'll become alone on the field, it won't be much a threat anymore. But yeah, meringue is a flavor GW really love.

Having faced a pair of Leviathan Dreadnoughts even before all the nonsense in Marines 2.0 and after, I'm not sure how practical this advice is.

Usually 'don't bother trying to kill it' applies either to slow-moving death-stars or to units like Guilliman, who, while still individually strong, are much better at buffing other units than winning matches by themselves.

However, Leviathan Dreadnoughts put out insane damage output at great range. Each of them could basically take out 2 of my vehicles per turn from full hp, and with 14 wounds and a 2+/4+, I just had no way to retaliate effectively. Especially since even reducing one to half wounds still only brought its BS down to 3+ from 2+ (seriously, wtf?).

I can't speak for the OP, but in the game I played ignoring the Dreadnoughts wouldn't have made a damn difference because they were the units that were completely shredding my army.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 25 2020, 00:48

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
You will learn that there are some units you should not try to kill. You need to focus on everything else and when it'll become alone on the field, it won't be much a threat anymore. But yeah, meringue is a flavor GW really love.

Having faced a pair of Leviathan Dreadnoughts even before all the nonsense in Marines 2.0 and after, I'm not sure how practical this advice is.

Usually 'don't bother trying to kill it' applies either to slow-moving death-stars or to units like Guilliman, who, while still individually strong, are much better at buffing other units than winning matches by themselves.

However, Leviathan Dreadnoughts put out insane damage output at great range. Each of them could basically take out 2 of my vehicles per turn from full hp, and with 14 wounds and a 2+/4+, I just had no way to retaliate effectively. Especially since even reducing one to half wounds still only brought its BS down to 3+ from 2+ (seriously, wtf?).

I can't speak for the OP, but in the game I played ignoring the Dreadnoughts wouldn't have made a damn difference because they were the units that were completely shredding my army.

Yeah, pretty much the only way I've ever killed a Levi was with a bunch of haywire skyweavers in an outrider detachment. But that was in 8th of course.

Mostly my plan is to just avoid playing against armies that have them. I have a few friends with primaris stuff but they never go full cheeseball. I just don’t intend to waste my time playing competitively until our book comes out.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 25 2020, 11:29

Some.of the best games I had were against Space Marines. Guess it is a matter of perspective. SM are the easiest army of the game, while Drukhari is one of the hardest army, remember this all the time helps.
If you PLAY Drukhari, other than the lore it should be because they're a challenging army that rewards you only after good toughts and strategy. Feels like a.bit Macchiavelli.
And Army where it's mandatory knowing your units, the enemy units, how to move on the board, how to hide, how to use reserves, etc.

So yes, my advice would be "remember all these things". If you want something easier, choose another faction. It's not a.balance issue, it"s a design decision. Besides chess where the """armies""" are the same, every game with different characters/army/composition/etc will always have the easier and solid picks, and the difficult and most rewarding ones. But sometimes someone can lose the sight of this.
Keep it in mind, and be pride about being an Archon.

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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 25 2020, 12:35

Cerve, i really approve all your points!
I'm brand new to this game that is Warhammer 40k, and already i've noticed what you're saying!
I've switched from playing Magic the gathering to Warhammer recently, and let me tell you that the same ''problem'' plague MTG, like you are wrong if you don't play THAT deck. As Cerve is saying, every games with different ''faction'' will always have some kind of unbalance, especially in the competitive scene. I'm hearing the same kind on complaints on both games.
I'm already aware that, by picking the Drukhari, i've picked one of the hardest faction to play, but i intend on playing casual kitchen table games with friends, so even if i'm pretty sure i will lose many games, i play for fun, for the lore and flavour of this faction.
As for the competitive scene, sure the way GW release their product is rather strange, i admit, but if, in like 6 to 12 months every new codexes are out, then there will be nothing to complain anymore (and the good news is that don't tell me there are that many tournaments in real life person right now with the pandemic).....and if there is still a big unbalance, than all the complains and the ''can't play this game anymore'' should be addressed, but not now when only 2 codexes are out (not even).

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 25 2020, 12:48

I too won a game against marines recently.
How?
I simply played the objectives, trying to deny him objectives and sent sacrificial unit after sacrificial unit to throw themselves on the shrine of the leviathan god.
I was able to squeak out a win, by playing a game I knew I had no business being in in the first place. I was so outpowered and undergunned it was laughable.

When you have to make a game plan based around the fact you have no chance whatsoever in a straight up fight, it is not reasonable, not balanced and definitely not fun.

And all of this is just before the NEW marine dex drops and they become even MORE powerful. (2 wounds across the board anyone?)

I really really like the "xenos only" tournament mentioned before. I mean I REALLY like that idea.  It is not unprecedented... back when invisibility and lash were all over the place, almost every tournament banned chaos.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 25 2020, 12:52

Leviathan Dreds are absolute Forge World cheese. One of the many reasons I dislike Forge World.

Please remember that Marines whole design philosophy is that they have a bunch of "jack of all trades, master of none" units that can be buffed to high heaven. It is litterally their thing. Its just a shame that Forge World units like the various Dreds just break the game.

Having said that, the general consensus seems to either tag it in CC (which will only keep it locked for 1 turn now that they can shoot you in their shooting phase anyway), or play on a board with lots of Obscuring terrain.

How did you manage to pull out a win BTW? Careful sacrifice of units to pull ahead on primary? I assume the marine player went with the While We Stand We Fight secondary (points if the Dred and Gilli stay alive until the end of the game).

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 25 2020, 13:17

@fisheyes wrote:
Please remember that Marines whole design philosophy is that they have a bunch of "jack of all trades, master of none" units that can be buffed to high heaven. It is litterally their thing.

I'm not the first person to point this out, but this design philosophy absolutely doesn't apply to Primaris units. They're very much specialised units that can also be buffed to high heaven.

It's the exact design space that Craftworld Eldar have occupied for most of 40k's history, and there's a reason why so much of the playerbase has a long-running grudge versus Eldar.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 25 2020, 14:23

SM design is "we need an army that forgive mistakes and gives easy wins". It is THE army for beginners, the icon of the game, the one who any new player should be attracted by. New player? Go SM (or Necrons if you really want, but we have way more easy to build boxes for SM...).
SM is the army easy-to-win. The problem is when you consider the efforts you need to bring into any event you'll go. Of course SM are the most common, it's not beacuse they're the strongest per sè: it is that they're strong with minor efforts. 6 games with SM and your mind will be fresher than it will be with 6 games with any other faction in this game (right now almost).
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 25 2020, 16:28

To be fair, OP did say he won the game. Dark Eldar were never a faction that was left with many models on the table at the end of the game, regardless of opponent or edition of the game.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 25 2020, 16:51

@Cerve wrote:
Some.of the best games I had were against Space Marines. Guess it is a matter of perspective. SM are the easiest army of the game, while Drukhari is one of the hardest army, remember this all the time helps.
If you PLAY Drukhari, other than the lore it should be because they're a challenging army that rewards you only after good toughts and strategy. Feels like a.bit Macchiavelli.

I'm not exactly a new arrival in Commorragh, Cerve. I know that Drukhari are supposed to be harder to play than Space Meringues, within reason.

Besides, I just saw Niccolo Machiavelli and asked him, 'Nicky,' I said, 'how do you fight a war with an army of condottieri armed with pikes and muskets, against an army of US Marines in tanks and helicopters and Jedi Knights?'

'Don't do it!' said Nicky, adding, 'Non sia sciocca, Principessa!' He suggested instead that we marry them and poison them in their sleep.

@fisheyes wrote:
How did you manage to pull out a win BTW? Careful sacrifice of units to pull ahead on primary? I assume the marine player went with the While We Stand We Fight secondary (points if the Dred and Gilli stay alive until the end of the game).

You are correct, he did indeed!

There were 6 objectives. I managed to keep two of them for most of the game by keeping the wracks out of sight. I also managed to keep a third objective by using speed and grabbing three of them at once, so that even if he killed the units on two of them (which he did) I still had the third. I kept this up until I ran out of units, and the early lead plus Linebreaker gave me the win.

Also, his little Bubble of Dreadnought Death can't both sit on an objective and also run around killing everything. I attacked his objective-grabbing squads of meringues with Morbith (haemonculus) and grotesques on one side, and with Agatha (succubus), wyches, and reavers on the other. They all got shot to pieces, but they did manage to stop the meringues from grabbing their objectives.

All that survived in the end was Morbith, Agatha, and a reaver bike. I won by 12 points, yay Sad

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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 25 2020, 16:58

Lol, that sounds like a perfect game for the True Kin! Taking the win, then running back to Commoragh to resurrect those that are worthy (and taking a pile of slaves with them).

How was terrain, specifically BLOS/Obsuring? I am guessing that the Dred didnt have many firing lanes, which was how you were able to survive at all.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 25 2020, 17:03

@Skulnbonz wrote:
I too won a game against marines recently.
How?
I simply played the objectives, trying to deny him objectives and sent sacrificial unit after sacrificial unit to throw themselves on the shrine of the leviathan god.
I was able to squeak out a win, by playing a game I knew I had no business being in in the first place. I was so outpowered and undergunned it was laughable.

When you have to make a game plan based around the fact you have no chance whatsoever in a straight up fight, it is not reasonable, not balanced and definitely not fun.

You get it, exactly. It's like we're in sync!

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 25 2020, 17:14

@fisheyes wrote:
Lol, that sounds like a perfect game for the True Kin! Taking the win, then running back to Commoragh to resurrect those that are worthy (and taking a pile of slaves with them).

How was terrain, specifically BLOS/Obsuring? I am guessing that the Dred didnt have many firing lanes, which was how you were able to survive at all.

I dunno. I would rather lose and have a fun game, instead of winning because I can count in multiples of 5.

There were two obscuring ruins in the middle. Three more ruins on the left side, leaving a clear diagonal from his deployment zone that was death to be caught in. Three more ruins on the right side with a large open area in the middle where one objective was.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 25 2020, 18:43

Honestly guys, this seems exactly what a thematic DE vs Marine match up should be (in my head anyway).

Marines advancing, trying to trade shot-for-shot. DE playing cagey, grabbing objectives and using pinpoint firepower to remove the enemy from strategic positions. It even had the thematic win-condition of lots of marines left, only a few DE left, but the win for the DE.

I admit that it is stressful to play these types of match-ups, but I personally feel the best when we eak out these sorts of wins. I dont find it satisfying when you curbstomp an opponent after turn 1, this is satisfying.

Marines are Easy Mode. We are Hard Mode.

Congrats on your wins, both of you.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 25 2020, 19:11

@fisheyes wrote:
Honestly guys, this seems exactly what a thematic DE vs Marine match up should be (in my head anyway).

Marines advancing, trying to trade shot-for-shot. DE playing cagey, grabbing objectives and using pinpoint firepower to remove the enemy from strategic positions. It even had the thematic win-condition of lots of marines left, only a few DE left, but the win for the DE.

I admit that it is stressful to play these types of match-ups, but I personally feel the best when we eak out these sorts of wins. I dont find it satisfying when you curbstomp an opponent after turn 1, this is satisfying.

Marines are Easy Mode. We are Hard Mode.

Congrats on your wins, both of you.

Pfft!

Personally I feel the best in a game when I can DO something, not just 'score points while getting slaughtered.'

And thematically speaking, isn't our technology supposed to be better? Then why are our weapons that fire energy directly from the heart of a dark sun so lame, compared to their weapons that just shoot lots of big pellets? Why do they have rifles that can punch through steel armour across the table, and we're still trying to shoot them with paintballs (poisonous paintballs, to be sure, but still)?

'Thematically' my foot! Wink

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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 25 2020, 20:13

@Barking Agatha wrote:


Besides, I just saw Niccolo Machiavelli and asked him, 'Nicky,' I said, 'how do you fight a war with an army of condottieri armed with pikes and muskets, against an army of US Marines in tanks and helicopters and Jedi Knights?'

'Don't do it!' said Nicky, adding, 'Non sia sciocca, Principessa!' He suggested instead that we marry them and poison them in their sleep.


This. This was too good.


And agreed, whilst there's always been a disconnect between lore and tabletop, and always will and must be, there should be limits to this. I feel dark eldar have been missing part of the cannon in 'glass cannon' for a little while.


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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 25 2020, 22:31

Remember when our lore was that we used the webway to attack unsuspecting armies? Is that reflected in the rules? I mean, deepstriking 1-2 units is basically the same thing as an entire army emerging from another dimension in a lightning raid.

Makes you jealous of how an entire army of space marines, including massive invictus war suits can sneak up on unsuspecting armies in a lightning raid. That's supported by the lore, right? The war suit puts on a giant refrigerator box and sneaks right up to us like Solid Snake.

Space marines used to be the jack of all trades, masters of none. Now they are masters of all trades, jack of none.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 11:08

Am I the only one that doesn't feel SM unbalanced for us? I mean, I can see that they needs some tweeks in points in general, but for US as Drukhari I don't see them as a bad client actually. Other armies struggles against SM, but I feel pretty comfident against them everytime I play with. Am I the only one?

Usually the game is: I'm faster, I do more points than him, I lose nearly 1000-1800 points, the game ends and I have way more VPs than him.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 12:43

TBH, I have not played against Marines since the bad old days of Ironhand Dominance. That was a brutal time to be playing the game.

I think with Dissies, Talos CC and Heat Lances, we have a decent hard-counter to the Marine Meta. But again, I have not played against them recently so I may be out of the loop.
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Kalmah
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PostSubject: Re: So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :)   So, space marines... (warning, I'll rant) :) I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 26 2020, 13:24

Everybody is ranting about the SM already when no new Codex are out.
Just look at the leak about the Necron's codex, from my perspective, every faction will receive an uplift in their RESPECTIVE game play (the necrons will now be harder to kill and easier than ever to reanimate).
The SM are supposed to be a big gun and big explosions army, with some strategy alongside, but they're not supposed to be quick, and quick they are not!
So, instead of just ranting, can we just have a positive discussion about what we would like to have in our next codex?
Personally i would love that our poison weapon receive a little uplift, not a bigger damage output or something like that, but more in the school of debuff stuffs, like reducing the movement stats or attack stats of a model being hit by a poison weapon, thus representing the ''poison'' with more fashion.
Also, as someone pointed above, stuffs that will allow us to play around the Strategic Deployment, representing the attacks from the webway, like we could deep strike at 6'' from enemy instead of 9''.
Our transport could be upgraded a little (venom to 6 and Raiders to 12 models).
With those stuffs, by respecting our game play, we would be able to play against SM and have a great game, even if their weapons become all S8 AP-4 d6dam.
As an old Drukhari says: What is the point of a big gun if i'm not there when you shoot?
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