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 Using Drukhari Beasts

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Oaka
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Oaka

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PostSubject: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 19 2020, 17:59

I'd really like to use beasts, for modelling potential and army uniqueness, but feel like they lose out on a lot of bonus rules by not having Power from Pain, Combat Drugs, or Obsessions.  So I'm trying to compile a list of ways to add rules to them, is there anything not listed here I may have missed?

In a Drukhari Detachment

Beastmaster- Allows Drukhari Beast units to reroll hits of 1 and use his leadership of 7 (9 with combat drug) while within 6".

Cronos- Allows Drukhari units to reroll wounds of 1 while within 6".

Cruel Deception Stratagem- Allows a Drukhari unit to Fall Back and still Charge.

Release the Beasts Stratagem- Allows Drukhari Beast units within 6" of chosen Beastmaster to reroll failed charge rolls.

Inspiring Leader Warlord Trait- Adds 1 to the Leadership of all friendly units within 6" of Warlord.

In an Ynnari Detachment

Beastmaster- Allows Drukhari Beast units to reroll hits of 1 and use his leadership of 7 (9 with combat drug) while within 6".

The Visarch- Allows Ynnari units to reroll hits of 1 while within 6".

The Yncarne- Gives friendly Ynnari units within 6" a 6+++ save.  Ynnari units within 6" autopass Morale tests.

Inevitable Fate Stratagem- All Ynnari units reroll wounds in melee against chosen enemy unit.

Reborn Together Stratagem- +2 to Leadership of all Ynnari units that are within 6" of another Ynnari unit.

Deadly Misdirection Stratagem- Allows an Ynnari unit to Fall Back and still Charge.

Lightning-Fast Reactions Stratagem- Ynnari Razorwing Flocks are -1 to hit when targeted.

Shield of Ynnead Psychic Power- Friendly Ynnari units have a 5++ save while within 6" of the psyker.

Ancestor's Grace Psychic Power- One Ynnari unit within 18" of the psyker rerolls hits of 1.

Inspiring Leader Warlord Trait- Adds 1 to the Leadership of all friendly units within 6" of Warlord.

Combining Detachments

There are clearly more advantages to Drukhari Beasts when used in an Ynnari detachment, but they lose reroll 1s to wound from the Cronos and reroll failed charges from the Release the Beasts stratagem.  However, both losses can be regained by taking separate detachments.  A Covens Cronos will still buff Drukhari units taken in an Ynnari detachment.  Most importantly, in my opinion, can a Wych Cult Beastmaster be targeted by Release the Beasts, and then give this aura to Ynnari Beast units within 6"?  Rule in Psychic Awakening- "Also note that you cannot use Craftworlds, Harlequins and Drukhari Stratagems or psychic powers to affect YNNARI units from your army, even though they may have the appropriate keyword."  I'd argue that the Drukhari stratagem is affecting the Beastmaster, and not the Ynnari units.

If so, will the optimal way to run multiple Beast units be with the Yncarne and a Wych Cult Beastmaster delivering all the needed buffs?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 19 2020, 18:22

Yncarne with a spell can give beasts a 5++/6+++, and moral bonus (as you said), and gives a unit re-roll all wounds as well. I run 12-30 RWF's as Ynnari a few times. While it is costly it is also a huge bullet sponge that the opponent has to deal with otherwise they are in their face turn 2 no matter way.

In DE they really only get 1 major buff and that is re-roll charges. You don't really need fallback and charge. Also with new terrain rules Swarms can get -1 to hit for free in a lot of places meaning you don't have to use Lightning Fast on them.

Clawed Fiends are also another option with all the price changes, built in the same way, sadly Khymerae's are still trash after the nerf from 5th to now (12pts for a 4++ with 5+++, remember 5th edition was a "high point" edition like 9th is, with kabals being 9ppm too and scourges 22ppm so asking GW to buff them is not only a must but its the only way anyone will play them).

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 19 2020, 19:12

It also helps save FA slots, since the beasts themselves dont take slots.

Not sure how relavent that is, but it is more useful in 9th than in 8th.

They also allow us to take super small squads, almost cheaper than Sslyth (if you ignore the Beastmaster investment)

I would love my beasts to be competitive again, converted a Fantasy Cold One into my Beastmaster. Loved running that in 7th, even though it was far from competitive.

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Oaka
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 19 2020, 19:33

I agree about Khymerae, they just simply don't compare favorably to Wyches.  My theorycrafting is currently looking at the Yncarne, a Beastmaster, and a unit of Razorwing Flocks, with two full units of Clawed Fiends in the webway.  The first three units all have Fly, and can utilize terrain to the best advantage possible.  A 4-wound Razorwing Flock effectively becomes 7 wounds with an added 5++/6+++, with -1 to being hit if necessary.  The Clawed Fiends can then drop in near the characters on turn 2, but even with rerolled charges there is only a 2/3 chance of one unit getting into combat so it still seems too unreliable for my liking. It also seems like its just throwing CPs at units to bring them in line with other options that have bonuses already included.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 19 2020, 22:36

Just today I writed an Ynnari list with 3x5 Incubi, 3 Beastmasters, 2x10 Flocks and 5 Clawed Fiends.
Need to build a lot of stuff, but I'll definitely give a ride to that. I love the idea behind it and in 9th it gots only buffs so..yeah, why not? Smile
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 20 2020, 00:14

@Cerve wrote:
Just today I writed an Ynnari list with 3x5 Incubi, 3 Beastmasters, 2x10 Flocks and 5 Clawed Fiends.
Need to build a lot of stuff, but I'll definitely give a ride to that. I love the idea behind it and in 9th it gots only buffs so..yeah, why not? Smile

I cannot fathom a reason to include 3 beastmasters. They are very, very bad. I could see maybe maaaaybe running 2 if you wanted to split up your beasts and didn't want to worry about Leadership (although beasts' low leadership is generally less of a concern this edition).

The Release the Beasts stratagem works off of one beastmaster, but confers to all beasts within 6". If the plan is to have 1 beastmaster accompanying each squad, then you stand to benefit the least possible amount from that strategem. If you ever clump the units to take full advantage of the strat, then the extra beast masters are wasted points.

I think you'd be better off with one beastmaster, 5 clawed fiends, 10 razorwing flocks, and 2 squads of 5 razorwings. You can split the squads of 5 off to go harass things and not care so much about them dying. Run the rest as a clump to benefit from the Ld and a more efficient use of their stratagem.
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 20 2020, 02:37

Do you have to take a beast master to take beast units? I'd love to have 3 units of flocks with ycarne, but don't want the master.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 20 2020, 02:52

@colinsherlow wrote:
Do you have to take a beast master to take beast units? I'd love to have 3 units of flocks with ycarne, but don't want the master.

Unfortunately, yes. For each beast master, you can take 3 units of beasts. Page 114 of the Drukhari book, in the box on the left of the page.

He is mostly a tax.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 20 2020, 04:16

Its max 3 per detachment too, so even with 2 BM's in the same detachment, you still can only take 3 units.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 20 2020, 05:19

@sekac wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Just today I writed an Ynnari list with 3x5 Incubi, 3 Beastmasters, 2x10 Flocks and 5 Clawed Fiends.
Need to build a lot of stuff, but I'll definitely give a ride to that. I love the idea behind it and in 9th it gots only buffs so..yeah, why not? Smile

I cannot fathom a reason to include 3 beastmasters. They are very, very bad. I could see maybe maaaaybe running 2 if you wanted to split up your beasts and didn't want to worry about Leadership (although beasts' low leadership is generally less of a concern this edition).

The Release the Beasts stratagem works off of one beastmaster, but confers to all beasts within 6". If the plan is to have 1 beastmaster accompanying each squad, then you stand to benefit the least possible amount from that strategem. If you ever clump the units to take full advantage of the strat, then the extra beast masters are wasted points.

I think you'd be better off with one beastmaster, 5 clawed fiends, 10 razorwing flocks, and 2 squads of 5 razorwings. You can split the squads of 5 off to go harass things and not care so much about them dying. Run the rest as a clump to benefit from the Ld and a more efficient use of their stratagem.



I like the idea to have 3 od them because of the LD spread, the fact that they can do actions (if they draw any kind of fire it's ok for me), and most of all they're free teleports for the Yncarne.

As Ynnari, you can't use any Drukhari stratagem onto them, unfortunately.


PS: why the Quote doesn't work? Is it a bug?
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 20 2020, 07:37

Ahh, I missed that they are Ynnari. Makes more sense.

Keep in mind the Yncarne mitigates the need for leadership spread since he'd make beasts fearless too. So you've got 4 leadership bubbles for 3 squads, which isnprobably more than you need. If you dropped 2, you could take a squad of hellions too.

You lose out on the redundant leadership, but you have faster infantry (for actions and whatnot), that hits harder than 2 beastmasters, would make better use of combat drugs, and only has 1 fewer wound.

Options to consider...
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 20 2020, 08:50

@sekac wrote:
Ahh, I missed that they are Ynnari. Makes more sense.

Keep in mind the Yncarne mitigates the need for leadership spread since he'd make beasts fearless too. So you've got 4 leadership bubbles for 3 squads, which isnprobably more than you need. If you dropped 2, you could take a squad of hellions too.

You lose out on the redundant leadership, but you have faster infantry (for actions and whatnot), that hits harder than 2 beastmasters, would make better use of combat drugs, and only has 1 fewer wound.

Options to consider...

Yeah Beastmasters are something that I can consider to cut off if I need points. But usually when I play the Yncarne I rarely use him.for the bubble. It can helps in turn 1 of course, but from turn 2 he will bounce everywhere on the board. I teleport him almost 2 times every turn.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 20 2020, 21:10

Do the beastmasters work well for Actions or hiding behind Fiends to hold objectives?

Cant recall the point cost of them, but I assume they are significantly more than Sslyth
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 20 2020, 22:10

@fisheyes wrote:
Do the beastmasters work well for Actions or hiding behind Fiends to hold objectives?

Cant recall the point cost of them, but I assume they are significantly more than Sslyth

Just shy of double the points cost as a Sslyth, harder to hide, and much more fragile. The only advantages to the beastmaster is its superior speed and the character keyword. Although the character keyword only matters if you're also investing a second squad to protect him so it's not really a built-in advantage.
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 21 2020, 00:27

I'll confess to be intrigued about the idea of adding a Beastmaster and a plethora of Beasts of different flavors. Not for any specific reason other than I like models.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 21 2020, 00:56

BM for secondaries that are able to be used with characters works much better than other non characters ones b.c you can protect them. But its still 45pts to not work on 1/2 the secondaries. Also they can be used to help secure Engage, behind, etc..

So there is merit for 1, IMO not more than 1 though.

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Oaka
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 21 2020, 02:39

A Beastmaster is also a good unit to use to prevent an enemy monster or vehicle from shooting due to being a Character. This may not come up often, but it is useful to understand. Say you charge a monster/vehicle with 3 Khymerae. That monster/vehicle can target the Khymerae with some shots, and target another unit with the remaining weapons. As long as it kills the engaged Khymerae, then it can shoot those other weapons. If you charge that monster/vehicle with 3 Khymerae and a Beastmaster, however, and make sure the Beastmaster is not the closest model, then it can only target and kill the 3 Khymerae. The Beastmaster cannot be targeted due to Look out Sir, and other units outside of the combat cannot be shot at because the monster/vehicle did not destroy all enemy units in engagement range.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 21 2020, 03:10

Ok, still not worth more than 1 IMO. 2 is 90pts, i'd rather have a unit of Mandrakes.

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Oaka
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 21 2020, 03:36

I agree only one per detachment.  I'd take 2 in different detachments, though, if I want 4-6 units of Beasts or the aforementioned way of getting Ynnari Beasts to reroll charges.

BattleScribe allows me to take an Auxiliary Support Detachment of one Beastmaster and three Beast units, but I'm assuming that is not actually legal?
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 21 2020, 04:09

@Oaka wrote:
I agree only one per detachment.  I'd take 2 in different detachments, though, if I want 4-6 units of Beasts or the aforementioned way of getting Ynnari Beasts to reroll charges.

BattleScribe allows me to take an Auxiliary Support Detachment of one Beastmaster and three Beast units, but I'm assuming that is not actually legal?

Pretty sure it is legal, but I'd be kind of baffled by someone running it. Beasts aren't interesting enough to justify the loss of a detachment and 2 command points by themselves.
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 21 2020, 04:55

If you have a BM then 3 units of beasts take up no slot. I also agree with Burnage

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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 21 2020, 05:14

@Oaka wrote:
I agree only one per detachment.  I'd take 2 in different detachments, though, if I want 4-6 units of Beasts or the aforementioned way of getting Ynnari Beasts to reroll charges.

BattleScribe allows me to take an Auxiliary Support Detachment of one Beastmaster and three Beast units, but I'm assuming that is not actually legal?

You can"t. Ynnari units cannot be affected by Drukhari stratagems
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 21 2020, 05:40

@Cerve wrote:
@Oaka wrote:
I agree only one per detachment.  I'd take 2 in different detachments, though, if I want 4-6 units of Beasts or the aforementioned way of getting Ynnari Beasts to reroll charges.

BattleScribe allows me to take an Auxiliary Support Detachment of one Beastmaster and three Beast units, but I'm assuming that is not actually legal?

You can"t. Ynnari units cannot be affected by Drukhari stratagems

My gut agrees with you, but that's not actually what it says. Pg 66 of Phoenix Rising says "...and so cannot use their respective Detachment abilities, Stratagems, Warlord Traits, Relics, Psychic Powers, or Tactical Objectives."

"Use" and "be affected by" are very different expressions--the former is active, your latter rephrasing passive. A Ynnari beastmaster most certainly cannot use Release the Beasts, but a purely Drukhari one obviously can.

Also on Pg 66 of PA, "If you choose for the Detachment to become an Ynnari Detachment, then units that Detachkent gain the Ynnari keyword...the Detachment is no longer considered to be a...Drukhari Detachment".

Notice, the units do NOT lose the Drukhari keyword. The unit just no longer counts as one.

So the Drukhari Beastmaster uses the stratagem, Drukhari (who also happen to be Ynnari) Beasts within 6" from your army (not this Detachment) get to re-roll charges.

RAW it works. RAI, they didn't realize the difference between active language "use", and passive language "be affected by". The should have said "use or be affected by" to avoid exactly these interactions.

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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 21 2020, 06:43

@sekac wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
@Oaka wrote:
I agree only one per detachment.  I'd take 2 in different detachments, though, if I want 4-6 units of Beasts or the aforementioned way of getting Ynnari Beasts to reroll charges.

BattleScribe allows me to take an Auxiliary Support Detachment of one Beastmaster and three Beast units, but I'm assuming that is not actually legal?

You can"t. Ynnari units cannot be affected by Drukhari stratagems

My gut agrees with you, but that's not actually what it says. Pg 66 of Phoenix Rising says "...and so cannot use their respective Detachment abilities, Stratagems, Warlord Traits, Relics, Psychic Powers, or Tactical Objectives."

Literally the next sentence after this is "Also note that you cannot use Craftworlds, Harlequins and Drukhari stratagems or psychic powers to affect YNNARI units from your army, even though they may have the appropriate keyword."
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PostSubject: Re: Using Drukhari Beasts   Using Drukhari Beasts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 21 2020, 06:58

That is some of the most gamey crap. Whats up with all these attempts to game DE rules lately? Its like the 10th one i've seen this week that makes no sense if you read the rules.

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