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 Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th

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Kaelyssa_Shadowsong
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PostSubject: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 13 2020, 01:33

So Looking at the Coven, I can no doubt see the immense potential and lethality Coven can bring to the board. After Taking a look at the Codex again, I can see Poison is not the same as we’ve known it to be (Splinter Racks letting you reroll your hits, Trueborn in Venoms pumping out ALOT of shots outside Rapid fire range, Duke Siliscus giving that awesome 3+ Poison to a unit, etc... Yes I played in 5th and 6th mainly)

Assuming I own every unit in the faction, does Mechanized Lists hold their own anymore this edition? It can be a Wych cult, Kabal or coven, it matters not. Though I’m experimenting outside the popular coven lists running multiple talos (doesn’t mean the mech list can’t have talos in it). What are your thoughts? I’m all ears for whatever you think shines this Edition Smile

Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th 9e0ebe10
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 13 2020, 04:41

I think Reapers are the vehicle unit to watch right now. They lost most of their rules disadvantages compared to Ravagers in the transition to 9th, and gained the substantial benefit of only being 10 points more than a Dark Lance Ravager. Would I pay those 10 points for an average of 0.5 more shots, an entire alternate weapon profile, prevention of Advancing in an enemy unit, two more wounds and a considerably stronger melee profile? You're damned right I would.

Now, there's a significant caveat in that it's a Forgeworld unit, and we're expecting a major overhaul soon to Forgeworld units, so I wouldn't exactly go to rush out and buy three of them just yet.

Aside from that, Test of Skill and Dark Technomancers are very good for vehicle spam still. We've already seen a DE player place very highly in a 9th tournament using a combination of DT Venoms and Reapers. It's a weaker proposition than 8th on paper, with things like caps to negative modifiers to hit and the Bring It Down secondary, but it's still a perfectly viable way of playing DE.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 13 2020, 08:54

I just think it's best way to play Drukhari in 9th. More than the full Coven list. Being fast, playing a lot of threats, spread around the table, redeploy yourself whenever you want etc its what 9th is designed for.
I think that 9 Talos etc are a good medium-high level archetype, solid, that can bring you some wins etc. But it's predictable, and not so much adaptable like a mechanized/MSU list. So I think the last one is more difficult, but better than the first e probably our best way to play DE in 9th.
BlackHeart, Flayed Skull, RedGrief, Test of Skill, Slashing Impact, Berserk Fugue, Artist of the Flesh, DarkTechnomancers, MasterMutanges are all strong and viable choices for this archetyoe.


PS: about poison, it's true it is not good about dealing damage. But I tend to keep.a bit of it in my list anyway just for being prepared all around. Usually I bring my good pack of Dissies, Reapers, Melee (Drazhar, Archons, Incubi, blaster+blast pistols etc) for Marines and veichles, but I still keep playing Venoms because it helps having some poison when you find that single Primarch, MC, blob unit to saturate without wasting too much quality attacks (that are few shots for a blob, or risk to being prevented by invuln saves for big guys).
Against Marines etc Venoms are just crazy good at pinning shooting units in melee.
But it's not mandatory, you can play full Raider MSS and being extremely good anyways. I'm just saying that Venoms still usable too (and as said before, a Tecnomancers Venom spam list makes the cut so..). They're both good choices.

PPS: Even a mixed list works. A pack of Grots+a lot of veichle spam is what I'm playing for now (8 Grots, 10 Wracks, 5 Venoms, 3 Ravagers) and it works for me. So I think it's viable even a mix of both, just keep high your number of threats.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 13 2020, 13:39

Something to keep in mind is the new Secondary missions. There is one that the enemy can take that scores 3 VP for every Monster/Vehicle over 10 wounds, and 2VP for everything 10 wounds and under (Bring it Down?). So our standard list of Taloi and boats gives up maximum points in many scenarios.

I would not let this deture you from going Mechanized, but something to keep in mind.

For my $0.02, I believe that Flayed Skull venoms still have a place in the game (19" movement, ignoring cover saves, re-roll 1's to hit on the splinter weapons without an Archon being close)
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 13 2020, 21:34

@fisheyes wrote:

For my $0.02, I believe that Flayed Skull venoms still have a place in the game (19" movement, ignoring cover saves, re-roll 1's to hit on the splinter weapons without an Archon being close)

Yeah I agree. Flayed skull is really solid for board control. I think flayed skull maybe with a small amount of coven + some other patrol could be very useful.

Have been thinking primarily flayed skull with a dash of PoF (haemonculus, 8 grots and 10 wracks) and then either some dark techno or blackheart. But wyches are very interesting to me so am strongly considering them. Haha

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 13 2020, 21:35

@fisheyes wrote:
Something to keep in mind is the new Secondary missions. There is one that the enemy can take that scores 3 VP for every Monster/Vehicle over 10 wounds, and 2VP for everything 10 wounds and under (Bring it Down?). So our standard list of Taloi and boats gives up maximum points in many scenarios.

I would not let this deture you from going Mechanized, but something to keep in mind.

For my $0.02, I believe that Flayed Skull venoms still have a place in the game (19" movement, ignoring cover saves, re-roll 1's to hit on the splinter weapons without an Archon being close)

But DT venom can one-shot 2-wound marines.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 14 2020, 01:36

@dumpeal wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:
Something to keep in mind is the new Secondary missions. There is one that the enemy can take that scores 3 VP for every Monster/Vehicle over 10 wounds, and 2VP for everything 10 wounds and under (Bring it Down?). So our standard list of Taloi and boats gives up maximum points in many scenarios.

I would not let this deture you from going Mechanized, but something to keep in mind.

For my $0.02, I believe that Flayed Skull venoms still have a place in the game (19" movement, ignoring cover saves, re-roll 1's to hit on the splinter weapons without an Archon being close)

But DT venom can one-shot 2-wound marines.

Both works fine. FS with Blast Pistols (19"+6"=25", meaning you're potentially in range of double blaster on first turn. And it helps anyway during the game), DT for straightfoward damage.
BH and Artists are good too. I was even thinking about Acrobatic one, just because our transport are crazy good on charging and pinning enemy units melee. So if any veichle (or pistol) will shoot you in melee (instead of falling back) you will get +1 to invuln and saving them on 4++. It has some potential if you're going to run a full run-into-face list (which is what that obsession wants after all..). Venoms will give you -1 too, making them pretty difficult to kill. Good when you charge other veichles/full shooting CMs.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 14 2020, 15:19

@Cerve wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:
Something to keep in mind is the new Secondary missions. There is one that the enemy can take that scores 3 VP for every Monster/Vehicle over 10 wounds, and 2VP for everything 10 wounds and under (Bring it Down?). So our standard list of Taloi and boats gives up maximum points in many scenarios.

I would not let this deture you from going Mechanized, but something to keep in mind.

For my $0.02, I believe that Flayed Skull venoms still have a place in the game (19" movement, ignoring cover saves, re-roll 1's to hit on the splinter weapons without an Archon being close)

But DT venom can one-shot 2-wound marines.

Both works fine. FS with Blast Pistols (19"+6"=25", meaning you're potentially in range of double blaster on first turn. And it helps anyway during the game), DT for straightfoward damage.
BH and Artists are good too. I was even thinking about Acrobatic one, just because our transport are crazy good on charging and pinning enemy units melee. So if any veichle (or pistol) will shoot you in melee (instead of falling back) you will get +1 to invuln and saving them on 4++. It has some potential if you're going to run a full run-into-face list (which is what that obsession wants after all..). Venoms will give you -1 too, making them pretty difficult to kill. Good when you charge other veichles/full shooting CMs.

The -1 to hit venoms is not as strong as it used to be. People will move a heavy weapon unit and shoot at venom without a second -1 to hit. That's why I strongly consider DL scourge now. When you have to move, just aim at flyer or unit that gives a -1 to hit.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 14 2020, 17:31

@dumpeal wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
@fisheyes wrote:
Something to keep in mind is the new Secondary missions. There is one that the enemy can take that scores 3 VP for every Monster/Vehicle over 10 wounds, and 2VP for everything 10 wounds and under (Bring it Down?). So our standard list of Taloi and boats gives up maximum points in many scenarios.

I would not let this deture you from going Mechanized, but something to keep in mind.

For my $0.02, I believe that Flayed Skull venoms still have a place in the game (19" movement, ignoring cover saves, re-roll 1's to hit on the splinter weapons without an Archon being close)

But DT venom can one-shot 2-wound marines.

Both works fine. FS with Blast Pistols (19"+6"=25", meaning you're potentially in range of double blaster on first turn. And it helps anyway during the game), DT for straightfoward damage.
BH and Artists are good too. I was even thinking about Acrobatic one, just because our transport are crazy good on charging and pinning enemy units melee. So if any veichle (or pistol) will shoot you in melee (instead of falling back) you will get +1 to invuln and saving them on 4++. It has some potential if you're going to run a full run-into-face list (which is what that obsession wants after all..). Venoms will give you -1 too, making them pretty difficult to kill. Good when you charge other veichles/full shooting CMs.

The -1 to hit venoms is not as strong as it used to be. People will move a heavy weapon unit and shoot at venom without a second -1 to hit. That's why I strongly consider DL scourge now. When you have to move, just aim at flyer or unit that gives a -1 to hit.

But not every Veichle/Monster have Heavy weapons.

And now, just because the maximum is -1 to hit, you can see this in the other side: Venoms are veichles that don't need to hide into Dense Cover, because they have the malus builded in. It helps a lot when you're deploying your army.


Good catch on DL Scourges, even if I'm not seeing any Flyer arond here, for now.
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Oaka
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 15 2020, 05:33

Since you can take transports in one detachment and have units from another detachment use them, are there any interesting obsession combinations that are worth looking at?

For example, Flayed Skull Kabalites would reroll 1s and ignore cover in a Dark Technomancers/Masters of Mutagens Venom.

Prophets of Flesh Wracks in Flayed Skull Venoms would get the extra 3" move on a Venom that rerolls 1s with splinter cannons and ignores cover.  It's also easy to get Kabal transports as you can take one for each Court of the Archon unit.  

I've wanted to change up my PoF transports because the only benefit they give me in games is the +1 toughness on turn 1 for being close to a Haemonculus, but then they move off and get no extra benefits.  I am currently leaning to Dark Technomancers transports, because I also want to try the DT Reaper with the extra damage (D6 shots at 2+ to wound, -4AP and D6+1 damage could be a counter to these 3W marine units).  I could put my Mandrakes or Scourges in that detachment for the transports and then have my PoF Wracks or Grotesques use them.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 16 2020, 08:11

@Oaka wrote:
Since you can take transports in one detachment and have units from another detachment use them, are there any interesting obsession combinations that are worth looking at?

For example, Flayed Skull Kabalites would reroll 1s and ignore cover in a Dark Technomancers/Masters of Mutagens Venom.

Prophets of Flesh Wracks in Flayed Skull Venoms would get the extra 3" move on a Venom that rerolls 1s with splinter cannons and ignores cover.  It's also easy to get Kabal transports as you can take one for each Court of the Archon unit.  

I've wanted to change up my PoF transports because the only benefit they give me in games is the +1 toughness on turn 1 for being close to a Haemonculus, but then they move off and get no extra benefits.  I am currently leaning to Dark Technomancers transports, because I also want to try the DT Reaper with the extra damage (D6 shots at 2+ to wound, -4AP and D6+1 damage could be a counter to these 3W marine units).  I could put my Mandrakes or Scourges in that detachment for the transports and then have my PoF Wracks or Grotesques use them.

For the FL Kabals part, it doesn't work. There's an errata on it.
Any other combination still works, as always
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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 17 2020, 10:01

@Oaka wrote:
Since you can take transports in one detachment and have units from another detachment use them, are there any interesting obsession combinations that are worth looking at?

Artists of Flesh Venoms/Raiders are great for ferrying just about anything, but with 9th now limiting the raw number of transports by the number of Infantry units you have in each detachment, it's difficult to bring enough of them to make a difference.

Otherwise, I'm a fan of Dark Technomancer + Mutagen Venoms with Kabalites/Incubi on board.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 17 2020, 13:00

Just remember that DT venoms still need to get through the marine armor. 3+ (2+ in cover) will not mean many marines dead, even when in ideal rapidfire range.

Mech certainly has a place with DE though. Having a transport on a point with a few boys inside can be very hard to shift. Making the opponent chose between killing a Ravager/Reaper or taking a boat off an objective is a hard decision Smile
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 17 2020, 13:24

@fisheyes wrote:
Just remember that DT venoms still need to get through the marine armor. 3+ (2+ in cover) will not mean many marines dead, even when in ideal rapidfire range.

So Marine equivalent models going to two wounds really throws out the balance of our obsessions, moreso than already. Dark Technomancer and Master of Mutagens poison will do substantially better versus MEQ than Flayed Skull.

Not that you should run one given their current points cost, but a double cannon Venom will expect to do the following damage to various targets:

Flayed Skull versus MEQ: 1.5
Flayed Skull versus MEQ in cover: 1.5
DT/MoM versus MEQ in cover: 2 wounds
DT/MoM versus MEQ out of cover: 4 wounds

So even in the best case scenario, a Flayed Skull Venom won't expect to kill a single Marine. That same Venom run as DT/MoM will expect to kill two.

Unless you seriously value the mobility that Flayed Skull gives, I think it's very hard to justify running it over DT currently. I also think that just how much better DT seems to be compared to other options is a major red flag for balance issues, and that there's a risk that it's going to get nerfed as a trait to not affect vehicles - I'm pretty convinced that whoever gave it to Covens straight up forgot that our transports and Forgeworld vehicles aren't Kabal only.


Last edited by Burnage on Tue Aug 18 2020, 22:41; edited 1 time in total
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 17 2020, 14:30

Doesnt MoM only work on CC attacks?

I agree that the power of the Venom is not is damage output, its the ability to be in specific locations when you need to. A raider may be better at this though, having 10W and the ability to pop Enhanced Aethersails for extra movement.

Personally I like Flayed Skull a lot more than Black Heart. I have not run Black Heart since they modified the Reroll strat to not affect AoV

But 100pts is a lot more than 75pts when you are bringing multiple vehicles
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Oaka
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 17 2020, 15:23

@hydranixx wrote:


Artists of Flesh Venoms/Raiders are great for ferrying just about anything, but with 9th now limiting the raw number of transports by the number of Infantry units you have in each detachment, it's difficult to bring enough of them to make a difference.


That is a good idea.  I actually prefer resilience to damage output so could see myself going this direction rather than DT on Coven vehicles.  An Artists of Flesh Spearhead Detachment of a Haemonculus, Drazhar, and three Reapers will net you a Reaper firebase and two transports.

Is there value to a Red Grief raider charging on the first turn?  14" + 8" Enhanced Aethersails + reroll charges?  Packing a Red Grief raider with Drazhar/Incubi or Ynnari characters/Wyches, and teleporting the Yncarne in as well when the raider gets destroyed.  We have the new emergency disembarkation CP if the transport gets surrounded, and the Yncarne can setup as close as possible so can't be blocked off.


Last edited by Oaka on Mon Aug 17 2020, 16:50; edited 3 times in total
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 17 2020, 16:01

Seems like a lot of CP for something that cant tank any return fire.

Most armies would be able to deal with Incubi/Drazhar in their lines Turn 1, especially since you cant charge with the Incubi/Drazhar until turn 2. You would need to play pretty cagey, and hit a flank. Once the opponent learns to watch for it, I doubt you will be able to make this work.

Would be fun the first time though!
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 17 2020, 16:08

@fisheyes wrote:
Doesnt MoM only work on CC attacks?

No, that's Experimental Creations. Masters of Mutagens still works on all poison.
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 17 2020, 19:51

Wow, didnt realize they forgot to nerf that combo.

I have been playing around with an "All Damage, All The Time" list consisting of a Black Heart Spearhead with 3 Ravagers, 3 Reapers, Archon with the Writ and as many Dissie Raiders as possible.

Going over the numbers, this should put out a decent amount of firepower. It would also have the mobility to sit on objectives. It does lack ObSec, and an anvil unit to anchor mid-board.

Has anyone played a list like this in 9th yet? How did scoring go with it?
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Denegaar
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 18 2020, 16:28

Yesterday Archon Skari played something like this online:

- BH Patrol just for the CP regen
- 2 MoM / DT Patrols consisting in 6 Venoms, 2 Reapers, 2 Disitegrator Raiders and 2 Cronos.

He lost (VS Tyranids) because a bad choice in the secondaries and an overly aggressive opening, he said it himself.

I haven't seen the full game, but the Reapers were hitting like a truck, first two shots were 11 and 9 damage each vs huge monsters (Exocrenes or smth like that), and Venoms are pretty nasty with the 2 dmg poison autowounding on 6s.
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 02 2020, 08:02

I've been playing MoM/DT for almost all of PA release and even into 9th. It works and still is good. But i prefer DT Raiders to MoM/DT Venoms, no AP and hurts WAY more than you would think, also 3D helps a lot too. But its one of those things that you need 5+ Raider to see a difference, 2-3 isn't enough, to many misses type of thing to get a good feeling.


I think i'm going to try this out my next serious game

Drazh
Haemon - gun
Haemon - gun
Wrack - gun
Wrack - gun
Wrack - gun
Wrack - gun
Reaper
Talos - Pods
Talos - Pods
Raider DC
Raider DC
Raider DC
Raider DC
Raider DC
Raider DC
Raider DC


I'm also thinking about taking out 2 Raiders for 2 Venoms and add in HWB to 1 unit of Talos

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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 02 2020, 13:54

Amish,
Before I went to a GT a few weeks ago I was struggling with either taking DT Raiders (3) or DT Venoms (3 + 1 Raider). MoM obviously buffs the Venoms to a great level, but has no effect on the Raiders.
In your list, the Wracks can benefit from it, but do you see a huge uptick in damage with them? I ask because I was seriously considering taking either Dark Harvest (5+ MW on the charge) or even Hungry For Flesh (+1 Charge) so everything can benefit.
I ended using the Venoms, but had I gone Raiders, I think I would have went with Dark Harvest because I tend charge with my vehicles a lot to move them upfield and to clear off small units. And the potential to deal MW is nice. Plus with 5 Wracks, getting 2 MWs from them is not out of the realm of possibility and would actually get them to do some damage in CC.
What are your thoughts on swapping out MoM for something else?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 02 2020, 14:08

Without Venoms I don't take MoM, i take EC for the Talos melee. I only take MoM+DT when i take Venom wrack spam. My above list isn't my MoM list. I have thought about Hungry for Flesh to b.c with Re-roll charges and +1 to charge you can get a reliable Talos turn 2 charge.

This is my MoM/DT list

Haemon + gun, Whip
Haemon + gun
Drazh
Wrack + gun
Wrack + gun
Wrack + gun
Wrack + gun
Wrack + gun
Wrack + gun
Reaper
Reaper
Talos
Venom x8
Raider x1 (Drazhar + wrack)


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PostSubject: Re: Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th   Mechanized / Vehicle Spam in 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 02 2020, 16:54

With Talos, I think the +1 Charge is definitely nice to have.
With Wracks, you roll with Ossefactors and no Liquifyers?
Pods work well on Talos for you?
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 :: Drukhari Tactics
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