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 Talos Tactics

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Doctor1999
Slave
Doctor1999

Posts : 16
Join date : 2020-07-14

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PostSubject: Talos Tactics   Talos Tactics I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 21:17

There are two load-outs with the Talos Pain Engine that I think are worth considering. Has anyone had any luck with these?

Variant 1: Dark Technomancer/Experimental Creations
3 Talos w/ Splinter Pods, Twin Liquifier Gun, Macro-scalpel

This variant is like, amazing at killing Primaris Marines. It costs the same as the classic Prophets of Flesh Haywire Blaster, MacroScalpel, Chainflail Talos that most of us run.

On average that's 21 shots that wound Marines on 2s from the Splinter Pods, and 21 shots that wound Marines on 4s with AP (and auto-hitting).

These are obviously not as survivable as the PoF variants but I think they're much scarier. The +1 to Strength also helps them out against Vehicles in case you run into them.

Variant 2: Artists of the Flesh
3 Talos w/ Haywire Blasters, Macroscalpels, Chainflails

The weapon loadout is identical to the PoF variant. I'm curious if anyone has done the math on whether or not the -1 to Damage is comparable to the 4+ invulnerable. The other advantage is that you can take transports and make them a lot tougher to kill as well. I'm considering trying this loadout because usually people are throwing multi-damage weapons at the Talos.

Have you had any luck with either?
(excuse the formatting or grammar, my weekend was a bit too fun for my own good LOL)
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sekac
Sybarite
sekac

Posts : 312
Join date : 2017-06-03

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PostSubject: Re: Talos Tactics   Talos Tactics I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 22:07

I posted in depth on the "Meta going into 9th" subthread, advocating hard for DT Talos. I've tried the splinter pods in 8th, but not in 9th. Losing harlequin jetbikes as a haywire source has made haywire blasters too valuable to me this edition. I like the splinter pods, but the lack of AP hurts.

Artists of the Flesh vs PoF is kind of a tough call. I think I'd prefer Artists of the Flesh for talos in particular, but it's close enough that the relic and warlord trait would tip it in PoF's favor for me if I'm looking for a good all-round detachment.
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Doctor1999
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Doctor1999

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PostSubject: Re: Talos Tactics   Talos Tactics I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 30 2020, 01:06

@sekac wrote:
I posted in depth on the "Meta going into 9th" subthread, advocating hard for DT Talos. I've tried the splinter pods in 8th, but not in 9th. Losing harlequin jetbikes as a haywire source has made haywire blasters too valuable to me this edition. I like the splinter pods, but the lack of AP hurts.

Artists of the Flesh vs PoF is kind of a tough call. I think I'd prefer Artists of the Flesh for talos in particular, but it's close enough that the relic and warlord trait would tip it in PoF's favor for me if I'm looking for a good all-round detachment.

Honestly I don't see what the big deal is in spending the 2CP to get 12 Skyweavers if you wanted them. You're still going to have 10CP at the beginning of the game, +5CP every turn.

You're right when you say the PoF detatchment is pretty great this edition with the focus on objectives. I'm just thinking that using DT Talos is more effective Anti-Infantry than our alternatives. Don't expect them to live at all, but they seem like an excellent unit to get Primaris marines off objectives.

Will check out the other thread!
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sekac
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sekac

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PostSubject: Re: Talos Tactics   Talos Tactics I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 30 2020, 02:02

@Doctor1999 wrote:
@sekac wrote:
I posted in depth on the "Meta going into 9th" subthread, advocating hard for DT Talos. I've tried the splinter pods in 8th, but not in 9th. Losing harlequin jetbikes as a haywire source has made haywire blasters too valuable to me this edition. I like the splinter pods, but the lack of AP hurts.

Artists of the Flesh vs PoF is kind of a tough call. I think I'd prefer Artists of the Flesh for talos in particular, but it's close enough that the relic and warlord trait would tip it in PoF's favor for me if I'm looking for a good all-round detachment.

Honestly I don't see what the big deal is in spending the 2CP to get 12 Skyweavers if you wanted them. You're still going to have 10CP at the beginning of the game, +5CP every turn.

3CP, but yeah, it's not unworkable. Also, you only get 1 CP at the start of each turn, not 5... Anyway, it's just a less desirable detachment, because you can't take a raiding force and an outrider. So then you're looking probably at a batallion of coven and the outrider. Not a bad basis for a list, but they don't have the flexibility to slot in and out of whatever list like they used to.

It's just personal incentive for me. Why finish painting a detachment that kind of reverse-dictate the rest of the list?? For the short term at least, staying with the raiding force and more easily swapping through sub-faction combos to see what works for 9th.

Back to the topic at hand, there are three things I like about the stinger pod as the chosen tail gun for Talos.

1) It's only a single gun, so you only risk at most 1 mortal wound, unlike the rest. That said, it rolls more dice and is therefore more likely to produce a 1.

2) Related to point 1, since it's a single gun, it costs less than every other option (with the 2 splinter cannons costing the most for reasons unknown).

3) I was expecting it to get blast, because it used to shoot 2 blast templates, but it didn't (I quadruple checked!) While that does leave it behind the power curve where it comes to clearing hordes, it allows you to shoot it in combat. That's a nasty proposition for units that get stuck in combat.

If you try them, let us know your experiences!
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fisheyes
Hekatrix
fisheyes

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PostSubject: Re: Talos Tactics   Talos Tactics I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 30 2020, 20:45

I can safely say that at 1500 points, 2 squads of 2 talos is not enough target saturation. You really need saturation to make them survivable, regardless of PoF/etc.

Same as Grots back in 8th, but with more firepower specifically targeted to kill them
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sekac
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sekac

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PostSubject: Re: Talos Tactics   Talos Tactics I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 30 2020, 22:24

I see no mention of 1500 points or 2 units of 2 Talos. He appears to be deciding on one squad of 3. Points level undetermined. But I agree, Talos by themselves are a priority target. Whether by adding more Talos, or presenting other threats, target saturation helps.
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fisheyes
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Tactics   Talos Tactics I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 31 2020, 20:04

4 Talos get killed quick at 1500. 3 Talos at 2000 will not survive Turn 1. I think you need at least 6, preferably 9 in a 2000 pt game
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sekac
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sekac

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PostSubject: Re: Talos Tactics   Talos Tactics I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 31 2020, 20:52

Oh. Well I disagree with all of that. Squads of 3 Talos won't die on turn 1 unless they have nowhere to hide on turn 1. That's less likely in 9th, and I've never heard anyone talk about how incredibly easily 3 got wiped first turn every single game of 8th edition.

Moreover, redundancy and target saturation are not the same thing. Having only a few Talos, and nothing else with similar defensive profiles is a sure way to get Talos killed. Adding more Talos is one perfectly acceptable way to ensure you don't run out of Talos, this is redundancy.

Target saturation is presenting multiple threats (they don't all have to be the exact same threat) and your opponent must choose which to deal with and how. In my experience, this can often be just as effective as redundanvy, if not moreso, because the decisions are trickier. If you have nothing but Talos, the opponent must simply choose which is most important to deal with. But by having talos, and chronos, and ravagers, and raiders, and aircraft, and grotesques, the opponent has a much more complicated range of decisions to make. As much as they may want to casually delete a squad of Talos per turn, they may instead have to deal with more immediate threats.

Not saying more Talos is the wrong approach, just the mentality that if you're playing 2000 points, you must have either 0 or 9 Talos, is way too dogmatic. A list writing mantra that stipulates you must spend preferably 2 detachments of a raiding force on one sub-faction and half your total points, won't help you think creatively, or easily adjust to an evolving meta.

I don't really like single Talos units, especially now that raiding force is encouraged and we have to be a bit more particular with how we organize units. But 2 or 3 in a squad I think are both fine. 2-4 units in the army works too. So I'd definitely agree that 4 is probably the minimum before they start to be really impactful, I just don't think more is mandatory depending on the rest of ths list.

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