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Kaelyssa_Shadowsong
Slave
Kaelyssa_Shadowsong

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Join date : 2020-07-27

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PostSubject: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27 2020, 15:55

Recently back from the 8th Edition Meta (when it was Mostly PoF lists with some black heart for Vect)

Havent played Dark Eldar for about a good 2 years, and wasnt too sure if the Meta changed drastically within that time frame. Just got me a Good Army to Start.

1x Archon

1 x Sslyth

2 x Mandrakes unit (4 x Troops & 1 x Leader)

1 x Kabalite Warriors unit (5 x Troops & 1x Leader)

2 x Scourges unit (4 x Troops with Shedders & 1 x Leader)

3 x Ravager (Fully magnetised Dark lance & Disintegrator options)


Having played 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th, What do you suggest is good now? I also overheard Poison Isnt As Good anymore (Splinter Raiders, Trueborn Splinter Cannons in Venoms, Talos with SCs, etc lots of Splinter)

My Lists usually Run 3 Ravagers with Dissies, after that I dont really know what to put in this upcoming Meta Change.

The Current Meta Going into 9th De7d9c10
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 13:10

So far it looks like we will want to build around the Realspace Raiding Force (3 patrol detatchments, which can be any combination of Kabal/Cult/Coven).

It appears the main strength of the True Kin is the Coven side of things, specifically squads of 3 Talos.

But the META is very much in flux right now, and could change at any time.
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Cerve
Hekatrix
Cerve

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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 14:43

I see both full meat PoF (6/9 Talos, 5/10 Grots) or MSU Kabal spam (Raider, Venom, Razor, Reapers).
Unfortunately no one has the guts for Wychcult Sad
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 16:52

My current list includes a detachment of PoF for resilience/objective-holding, and a detachment of Dark Technomancers for more offensive punch. I'm going to experiment with putting a unit of Dark Technomancer Talos' in reserve with twin-liquifiers/twin haywire, for flanking purposes.
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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 18:43

Krayd, if Outflanking your Talos is your goal with DT, what second Trait are you thinking? I know EC seems like the go to, but have you thought about the +1 to charge? I think that could really help to get those Talos into CC when they arrive.
My biggest worry with OFing Talos and TL-Liquifyers is you paid the points for the gun, but cant shoot it when you arrive. But if you can get tied up in CC, that would help.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 18:56

Wouldn't it make more sense to have DT Chronos, and keep the Taloi in PoF for that sweet 4++?

Either way this is a costly endeavor.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 19:49

@fisheyes wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to have DT Chronos, and keep the Taloi in PoF for that sweet 4++?

Either way this is a costly endeavor.

My list actually includes one unit of PoF Taloi as well, to deploy on board and run up the middle. I do have a DT Cronos in my list also, but my main strategy is to have it hanging out with the PoF Taloi that start on board. I'm trying to minimize my CP strategic reserves expenses. However, putting the Cronos in reserves is still an option.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 19:51

@SCP Yeeman wrote:
Krayd, if Outflanking your Talos is your goal with DT, what second Trait are you thinking? I know EC seems like the go to, but have you thought about the +1 to charge? I think that could really help to get those Talos into CC when they arrive.
My biggest worry with OFing Talos and TL-Liquifyers is you paid the points for the gun, but cant shoot it when you arrive. But if you can get tied up in CC, that would help.

My first thought was experimental creations, to buff up their Strength, but there is definitely a lot of merit in looking at some of the other options.
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sekac
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 20:03

@fisheyes wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to have DT Chronos, and keep the Taloi in PoF for that sweet 4++?

Either way this is a costly endeavor.

I couldn't disagree more. Having used both PoF Talos and DT Talos with twin-liquifiers, I don't think it's even close, DT is hands down better. PoF is a little bit tougher than DT, end of story. But the damage output isn't even comparable--DT is miles ahead.

So the question is: do you want to trade considerable offensive output for marginal defensive benefit? No, because offense is our best defense. For instance, if you're charged by a squad of assault intercessors, which version would lose the most wounds? PoF, because the DT Talos have a good chance to just delete the squad on overwatch, PoF maybe kills one if it's lucky.

If I'm spending the same points either way, I'm going to take the squad that has the ability to remove multiple squads from the table in a turn, over the one that just gets removed a little more slowly.

Twin liquifiers shooting at a vehicle, for instance, averages 14 hits, needing 5s to wound, averaging AP-2, and D2. You know what else needs 5s to wound vehicles, is AP-2, and D2? Disintegrators. 2 ravagers average a little over 12 hits per turn. So a single squad of 2 Talos is better at killing vehicles than 2 ravagers, BEFORE including the haywire.

The D2 liquifiers are absolute game changers in 9th +1 to your invul just isn't.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 20:22

The Liquifiers also have an 8" range and will be consistently dealing mortal wounds to the Talos. Dark Technomancers is very good, but I think there are arguments to be made for three of the Covens Obsessions competitively; Prophets has the obvious trait/relic/strat benefits, while Artists of Flesh is a huge defensive boost.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 21:39

Quote :
DT Talos have a good chance to just delete the squad on overwatch,

You say overwatch will wipe a squad, but don't you think they will be pulling the same charge shenanigans we do? Charge with a lone model, charge from 9" away, deny overwatch through relic, trait or ability...
A squad of two DT talos with twin flamers will reliably.. RELIABLY be taking 2 mortal wounds a turn... every time they use them.
POF-
best warlord trait for coven
Best relic (even now) for coven
Best save for coven.

You are right... in my opinion it is not even close.


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sekac
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 22:48

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Quote :
DT Talos have a good chance to just delete the squad on overwatch,

You say overwatch will wipe a squad, but don't you think they will be pulling the same charge shenanigans we do? Charge with a lone model, charge from 9" away, deny overwatch through relic, trait or ability...
A squad of two DT talos with twin flamers will reliably.. RELIABLY be taking 2 mortal wounds a turn... every time they use them.  
POF-
best warlord trait for coven
Best relic (even now) for coven
Best save for coven.

You are right... in my opinion it is not even close.


Talos have no relics, or warlord traits so those are irrelevant to this point. I'm not making the case that PoF and DT are mutually exclusive. I'm making the point that DT Talos are considerably better than PoF Talos.

But you're right, if I get charged by a unit of assault intercessors, I would likely lose 2 wounds on overwatch (1 on each). This is fewer wounds than a PoF squad would likely take though, so they still come out ahead. Plus the squad is dead, as opposed to holding your Talos in combat for a turn, which is also better. Advantage, DT.

PoF Talos can be mitigated too. Shoot them with AP0 or -1 weapons. Hit them with mortal wounds. Why are you evaluating units based on assumption that the opponent will have the perfect counter for one version of the unit and pretend there is no counter for the other?

Yes, the opponent could use shenanigans to mitigate the overwatch if they have the right setup. The other issue, is getting into charge range with DT Talos is also a pickle. If a Primaris unit ends its turn within about 20" of 2 Talos, they are likely dead. Move 8", advance usually re-rollable D6", shoot 8" and delete the unit with average rolls.

Hell, it's not even that unlikely that a squad of 2 wipes 2 units per shooting phase with rolling only a bit above average. If you can get the liquifiers on one target and haywire on a dreadnought (or similar), dropping both isn't crazy. PoF just can't unless they roll really hot AND have ideal targets (i.e. nothing with 2 wounds or FNP).

Then there's the issue of getting stuck in combat with DT Talos. Maybe the opponent does have shenanigans that prevent an overwatch, or I roll poorly or something. In the next shooting phase, here comes another 4D6 D2 hits, and another 4D3 D2 shots. They can blast their way out of combat and be free to charge a nearby squad next phase.

And finally, the mortal wounds they take can actually make them tougher in a weird way. In 9th, models must be allocated wounds when either they are already wounded, or have had wounds allocated to them this phase. That means if I take a mortal wound on both, then I get to cheese wounds as efficiently as possible the first time they get attacked per phase. I can theoretically take 12 wounds before removing 1 model, PoF can't.

As an example I'll give the brief game script of my 2 squads of DT Talos in my last game.

Turn 1: Both squads fire haywire at razorback, blow it up (possible, but unlikely with PoF)

Turn 2: One squad gets charge by blood claws, delete them. Terminators land in my backfield, charge and kill wracks. The other 2 Talos shoot them down to 2 models, kill them in CC. With PoF, the first squad maybe would've killed 1 or 2 blood claws to shooting and done just enough wounds to finish them off, taking who knows how many wounds in combat (more than 2, certainly). The other wouldn't have been able to whittle the terminators down with shooting enough to safely charge them. It would be a risky charge against multi-wound weapons. The talos probably win eventually, but take heavy damage.

Turn 3: The midfield squad moved up and melted a dreadnought with liquifiers (pretty much impossible with PoF) and squatted on the objective.

Turn 4: My opponent, desperate to shift them off the objective charged with another dreadnought and took 7 wounds from the overwatch. I allocated his multi-damage attacks first to my almost dead Talos and it died, the remaining mostly healthy one killed the dread.

Those 2 units easily dispatched 5, and had me well on my way to tabling my opponent (we called it after his turn 4, because he was going to have just Bjorn and an Iron priest  left after my 4th turn).

With PoF, they would've killed the blood claws, and likely killed the termies too, but would've taken longer and with a worse exchange. The dreadnoughts would likely have ganged up on and killed the midfield squad.

My opponent was able to dominate the board early, scored 15 primaries to my 0 on the first turn (damn termies got the wracks on my obj). I probably would not have won that game with PoF. Because, instead of easily killing everything they set their sights on, and allowing me to reassert board control by turn 3, they would've gotten bogged down in combat right near my deployment zone.

In 8th, I think there was a debate to be had. In 9th, at least 4 DT Talos will be in every list I take. I'll take PoF for wracks and relics, but I need my Talos to change games, not slog through them.


*EDIT* The theoretical damage ceiling for wounds dealt by a squad of 2 DT Talos in one player turn is 128. 60 wounds on a vehicle, 48 wounds with the liqs, 20 in combat. There's so much randomness, that it'll never happen, but illustrates how they can absolutely devastate sections of the board very quickly. Each squad has about the shooting power of 2 ravagers AND 2-3 harlequin jetbikes. That's no joke.

Food (souls) for thought.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 13:35

@sekac wrote:

. If you can get the liquifiers on one target and haywire on a dreadnought (or similar), dropping both isn't crazy.
So you are taking TWO wounds each talos each phase they shoot? One for the flamer. one for the haywire? I think that your theory is correct, yes, DT dishes out more pain, but becomes IMMEASURABLY less survivable while taking 6 wounds over 3 rounds of shooting. You would soon see in practice that you would not be activating your DT abilities when your talos is half dead and you are worried about a squad of eldar snipers being able to gak it in one round.

Quote :

And finally, the mortal wounds they take can actually make them tougher in a weird way. In 9th, models must be allocated wounds when either they are already wounded, or have had wounds allocated to them this phase. That means if I take a mortal wound on both, then I get to cheese wounds as efficiently as possible the first time they get attacked per phase. I can theoretically take 12 wounds before removing 1 model, PoF can't.
this is wrong. You wound yourself in your OWN phase. after that, when you allocate ANY hit on a talos, you keep on that talos until it is dead or all the shots are done.

Listen. I agree with you 100% that DT is powerful... but on very expensive models that can kill themselves in three turns because of it, or weakening themselves to where you are timid using them how they need to be used? Not so sure.
DT Reapers? All day long!
talos? eh... if they take obsessive collectors, or whatever the one where you gain wounds back, maybe.

In this edition of 40K, I think survivability slightly edges out killing power in importance. Staying on an objective is better than killing a pesky dreadnaught.
Just my opinion as well.

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sekac
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 14:15

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@sekac wrote:

. If you can get the liquifiers on one target and haywire on a dreadnought (or similar), dropping both isn't crazy.
So you are taking TWO wounds each talos each phase they shoot? One for the flamer. one for the haywire?  I think that your theory is correct, yes, DT dishes out more pain, but becomes IMMEASURABLY less survivable while taking 6 wounds over 3 rounds of shooting.  You would soon see in practice that you would not be activating your DT abilities when your talos is half dead and you are worried about a squad of eldar snipers being able to gak it in one round.

Quote :

And finally, the mortal wounds they take can actually make them tougher in a weird way. In 9th, models must be allocated wounds when either they are already wounded, or have had wounds allocated to them this phase. That means if I take a mortal wound on both, then I get to cheese wounds as efficiently as possible the first time they get attacked per phase. I can theoretically take 12 wounds before removing 1 model, PoF can't.
this is wrong. You wound yourself in your OWN phase. after that, when you allocate ANY hit on a talos, you keep on that talos until it is dead or all the shots are done.

Listen. I agree with you 100% that DT is powerful... but on very expensive models that can kill themselves in three turns because of it, or weakening themselves to where you are timid using them how they need to be used? Not so sure.
DT Reapers? All day long!
talos? eh... if they take obsessive collectors, or whatever the one where you gain wounds back, maybe.

In this edition of 40K, I think survivability slightly edges out killing power in importance. Staying on an objective is better than killing a pesky dreadnaught.
Just my opinion as well.

Staying on an objective and killing 2 dreadnoughts is better than contesting an objective and getting killed by those 2 dreadnoughts because you don't have the tools to kill them. PoF would not have helped me at all. I would have lost more wounds, captured fewer objectives, and done less damage. PoF would have lost me the battle. DT sealed it. Because takeing 1-3 wounds spread across 2 tough models in exchange for deleting entire units is a fantastic exchange and always will be.

And you're also wrong on the wound allocation. Say I fire with a squad and each takes a wound for powering up. Next time my opponent shoots them, I choose which model takes the wound. Say he brings it down to 1 wound. In combat he attacks the unit again and sneaks a 3 damage attack through. I get to choose which Talos takes the wounds because 1) they are both wounded, and 2) neither has had attacks allocated to it this phase. In this way, you can potentially take 6 wounds on each Talos before 1 goes down. Every phase you get to reset your decision on who takes the first wounds. PoF has no choice. They will ever only have 1 wounded model and so wounds must always be allocated to that one first.


Last edited by sekac on Wed Jul 29 2020, 14:36; edited 1 time in total
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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 14:19

Your opponent charged you with Blood Claws? 1 Dreadnought charged in? Geez, I need to play the opponents you play.
Competent players won't needlessly throw units away at things they will never kill. Blood Claws won't kill a DT Talos squad or a PoF squad regardless of what they're armed with. A Dreadnought also won't kill a squad of DT or PoF Talos (I think your squad was reduced to 2 in the BR?) Whoever you played was an idiot and just gave you free kills.
I think DT is strong and can really deal a lot of damage. But, the short range of the Liquifyers scare me on such a big and relatively slow model. I could see having 1/3 having them for OW or being locked in CC, but all 3 seem not only expensive but really reduces the CC output of the Talos. Not to mention killing yourself with it on a routine basis.
The short range in your BR never was an issue because your opponent just kept running up to you. You're not afraid of just being shot at range and not using them? If you Outflank them, you can't shoot it the turn you come in. Fire and Fade will help the squad move up the field because of the Haywire.
What was the rest of your list?
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 14:40

Hmm, I clearly need to run some DT Taloi to have some concrete experience with them. With the Realspace Raiding Force, it will be easy to run PoF, DT and maybe some Flayed Skull venoms.

You have inspired me, sir
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 15:28

The blood claws was a foolish charge, I'd agree there. The dradnought had no choice. I was sitting on an objective. He could shake his fist at me and let me score it, or try to shift me off. It was desperate, but the objectively correct choice.

Liquifiers don't change the CC output much. With chain flails, you pay for 2 weapons but never get to use both. Liquifiers in combat can do considerably more damage than a chain flail.

The rest of the list is BH patrol with 5 kabalites and 2 ravagers, ToS patrol with drazhar, 5 wyches, and 2 voidravens, and DT patrol with 2 squads of 5 wracks, 3 raiders, and 2 squads of 2 Talos.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 15:55

No reason you couldn't potentially mix and match Talos types. 6 Prophets Talos alongside 3 DT ones, as well as 3 DT Cronos, would presumably make for a fairly nasty backbone of a list.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 18:04

That second DT HS slot would probably be better used with a Reaper.

9th is taking a while to get my head wrapped around. Keep running out of slots to place things, and not just with DE (cant get enough HQ slots on my Guard lists either)
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 18:22

I'd point out that there is nothing saying that you have to take different subfactions to qualify for Raiding Force. If you wanted to take 2 Patrols of DT Coven and 1 of Kabal, that's fine.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 04 2020, 15:08

Has anyone tried a Venom Spam in a competitive environment yet?

Curious how it stands up to all the AT weapons people are bringing, and how the mobility pays off to grab Secondaries, at the cost of the Big Game Hunter secondaries it gives up (sry, cant recall the new name of that secondary)
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harlokin
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 04 2020, 16:54

@fisheyes wrote:
Has anyone tried a Venom Spam in a competitive environment yet?

Curious how it stands up to all the AT weapons people are bringing, and how the mobility pays off to grab Secondaries, at the cost of the Big Game Hunter secondaries it gives up (sry, cant recall the new name of that secondary)

Doesn't count as a "competitive environment", but Lawrence (Tabletop Tactics) did well with a Venom spam list against Ravenwing. This is what he ran:

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Aeldari – Drukhari) ++

Detachment Type: Kabal of the Flayed Skull

+ HQ +

Archon: Blast Pistol, Hatred Eternal, Huskblade, The Djin Blade, Warlord

Archon: Blast Pistol, Huskblade

Archon: Blast Pistol, Huskblade

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors
3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
Sybarite: Blast Pistol

Kabalite Warriors
3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
Sybarite: Blast Pistol

Kabalite Warriors
3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
Sybarite: Blast Pistol

Kabalite Warriors
3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
Sybarite: Blast Pistol

Kabalite Warriors
3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
Sybarite: Blast Pistol

Kabalite Warriors
3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
Sybarite: Blast Pistol

+ Elites +

Sslyth

+ Heavy Support +

Ravager: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

+ Flyer +

Voidraven: Two dark scythes, Voidraven Missiles

Voidraven: Two dark scythes, Voidraven Missiles

+ Dedicated Transport +

Venom: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

++ Total: [93 PL, 1,996pts] ++

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 04 2020, 17:46

One of the first 9th ed GTs also had a Dark Eldar player come third relying mostly on Dark Technomancers/Masters of Mutagens Venom and Reaper spam.
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JRG
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 04 2020, 20:41

May I ask, what is the reason to include the Sslyth unit, objective capping unit?
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harlokin
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PostSubject: Re: The Current Meta Going into 9th   The Current Meta Going into 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 04 2020, 21:11

@JRG wrote:
May I ask, what is the reason to include the Sslyth unit, objective capping unit?

I try to take one if my HQs are running about in a Venom, to take the hit if (when) the boat get destroyed and I roll a '1' for passenger casualties.

That said, the Sslyth dropped quite a bit in points, and are nice overall.

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COMMORRAGH TACTICA

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