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Hellion
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PostSubject: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 16:01

Hey all, DE newcomer here.

I'm having trouble seeing how to actually kill a lot of stuff with DE. I was wondering if anyone could help enlighten me.

I'll try to expand a little.

With other armies, I've never had worries about bringing the pain to the table. My previous experience is mostly with space marines (need it dead? Terminators, land raiders, demolisher cannons...) and tyranids (need it dead? bury it in buff-gaunts, slap it with MCs...). I could always see the utility and 'payload' of a unit.

For some units in the DE codex I have no problem - Ravagers, for example. My biggest issues are with splinter weapons and wyches, which are so distinctive of DE.

First, splinter weapons. Even with sliscus in a mob of trueborn with carbines and cannons, I can't see how I get enough wounds to get MEQs to fall down or make enough of a dent in an Ork or tyranid horde.

Second, wyches. I don't think they're overpriced (they do have drugs, I6, dodge and fleet), I just don't get how they'll ever triumph over Meqs or orks (for example) in combat. Tar pit them for a while, maybe, actually kill a tactical squad, or boyz mob? That would take forever, surely, since they mostly just kick out s3 attacks, and then only 2 each (assuming charge neutrality, obviously 3 with the charge). I mean, I'll have to commit them to combat at some point; that's why they're there. I just don't know how or when.

Sure, I know I can make big killy dents in stuff with units like incubi, archons or blasterborn, but honestly, after my troops (and their transport) and ravagers, I don't really have the points.

For context, my list is over in the relevant section.

Thanks for any help anyone can give me; I suspect it's just that I'm just not quite used to a toolkit like that offered by the DE, but then, that's why I went for them =).
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 17:21

Well, You shuld try some "good old fashioned" builds

For example Trueborn (3) with Lance in Venom cost 116 points while same unit with dual SCannons in Rider cost 111.
Both have same ammount of shots and while Venom get FF it can't do jack $%#@ to tanks while moving.
Never.
Raider can take FF (or not) and move 6" with reduced firepower.

Similar with Warriors, 10 with SC in Raider (I also pick Blaster for more darklight)

As for Wyches - they are CCtrolls of 40k. Seriously, they just... won't... die. Shardnets make enemy cry. If You happen to roll +1 WS and have FNP, they are VERY annoying for most units.
They also can have up to S5 on charge.
Always pick PW. This is best 20 points You can spend in this unit (except 10x haywire grenades)

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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 17:49

Thanks Ork.

About the wyches, did you mean agonizer? Only I think a PW (power weapon) is 10pts, not 20.

How do the three trueborn in a venom work with a lance? Surely they can't fire it if the venom moves? Or am I missing the point?

And I see that wyches can be durable, but I just thought that with t3 and effectively a 4+ save, they'd die to marines or orks (or even necrons) pretty quick in melee, unless you can get that FNP onto them.


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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 17:56

DE not killy enough? Thats something i never thought i would hear said!!

I cant speak too much for Splinter fire, but IMHO Wyches are just awesome. They are the best TROOPS choice for CC killiness in the entire game, Genestealers come a close second but Wyches have a 4++ and are cheaper. Again this is only my opinion.
I run 40 of them in my current list and they kill MEQ just fine. Incubi, Archons etc can do it more efficiently but they cost a lot, arent troop choices and have no Inv (apart from Shadowfield but that can dissappear very easily). Can you tell i love my Wyches? LOL The guys i play against all play MEQ and they hate my new list, simply because as Local_Ork says Wyches just will not die and can kill just fine in return. Get a Hekatrix with Agoniser, some Razorflails and Hydra Gauntlets and load them up with Haywires. Add in a Raider and they will pop tanks and infantry before you can blink.

As far as Splinter fire goes a friend of mine runs 5 Trueborn, 2 SC's and 3 carbines with the Duke in a Raider with Dissies. Thats some very Dead marines.....well very dead anything silly enough to get in front of it.

In the end its not our Killiness thats the worry its our Survivability.
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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 18:04

Want to kill MEQ? Try a Disintegrator/Splinter Cannon/Monoscythe Razorwing. Unless it's Nobz or GK Paladins with their multiwound shenanigans, the MEQ unit under the destructive turn one payload of Razorwing will take a serious dent. So far my record is 8 out of 10 Terminators killed.

Wyches are not your killy unit. Wyches are your "Haha your assault marines/sanguinary guard/assault termies won't be able to do anything for a long time" unit. Get them in combat with something and they'll stick like glue to them. Wyches are there for you to allow your Kabalites and Trueborn live longer. Wyches are there to set up killing fields for your Incubi and Archon.

As for splinter weapons... honestly, the tougher they are, the better they become. Shooting guardsmen with splinter weapons sucks (that's where wyches should come in, they are dead killy versus guardsmen). However, marines, bikers, orks, MCs... all those things that make other armies start scratching their heads in confusion on what to do, we simply cover in poisoned slivers. Sure, it might take a shooting round or two, but the volume of shots add up into wounds. Ask any marine player who left out his Terminators in rapid fire range of a guardsmen platoon that had nothing but lasguns. 60 (90 with 1st rank fire, 2nd rank fire) shots can kill anything, despite being pathetic S3 AP -.

Bottom line is this - experiment. See what works, see what doesn't, then shuffle your cards around and try different combinations. Dark Eldar codex has tools to deal with virtually anything, but it is not forgiving to mistakes.


Edit: The three Trueborn with Lance in Venom act as a stationary turret with 36" death range to both vehicles and infantry, able to shoot everything, while a Raider with a similar setup cannot offer the same at the same price.

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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 19:02

@Guidebot wrote:
Thanks Ork.

About the wyches, did you mean agonizer? Only I think a PW (power weapon) is 10pts, not 20.

How do the three trueborn in a venom work with a lance? Surely they can't fire it if the venom moves? Or am I missing the point?

And I see that wyches can be durable, but I just thought that with t3 and effectively a 4+ save, they'd die to marines or orks (or even necrons) pretty quick in melee, unless you can get that FNP onto them.


1 )Nope, PW. I just counted otherwise useless Hekatrix upgrade (+1 attack is NOT worth 10 points, ability to take weapon is), so 10+10. IMHO point difference/effectiveness between Agoniser is not worth 10 points (on the other hand, on HQ 5 point difference worth paying more due to more attacks) especially if You WANT Grave Lotus (+1S) drug (it make whole unit a lot better). Sorry for confusion.

2) Nope, You don't miss anything. Venom-Lancer can't move and dish AT, however Raider-Gunners can do that. For less points. only "advantage" is privilege of buying second lance for additional 25 points. Kinda ripoff, but if You actually have points... Still, I rarely would bother with Venom, despite how awesome it is.

3) People often use Wyches with Haemonculus, detaching (leaving in transport) him if there is chance they may not assault with move+charge (Haemi don't have fleet). In Raider this isn't the problem tho (12" Skimmer move, ~3" forward due to disembark and 6" in assault phase often do the trick reliably enough without running).

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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 19:10

I detach the Haemonculus when I disembark my Wyches not only because he doesn't have fleet, but because a canny opponent will just attack the Haemonculus instead of the Wyches if they're in the same combat.

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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 19:18

But... YOU assault him. You can deploy as far as You can and NOT put him in direct combat (in first assault turn, then LOLork him with 6" move), surrounded by girls (so enemy can't "pile in" him).

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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 19:48

Though if you do that - what's the point of bringing him in the first place?

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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 20:07

FNP + possible attacks in enemy CC phase?

It's better than leaving him to burn inside exploding transport.

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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 20:29

I like letting him inside the Raider so I can get good angles on some Liquifier action. Better to just give the Wyches his pain token and leave him aboard the ship.

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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 07 2011, 20:53

^ Right on.

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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 08 2011, 09:30

Thanks for the feedback all.

It's good to hear that, by and large, DE players aren't having difficulties killing stuff!

I've taken another look at my army list and I've decided that, mostly, I'll just aim to capture one objective and contest any others. This means that I can trim my troops and take some more killy stuff.

Wyches, I'll aim to jet in and tie up whatever I don't want hurting me. I now see them like a time warp for enemy units that will take a few turns to break out of ( and might grind them down a bit into the bargain).

The leaner troops choices leave me more room for taking a razorwing perhaps, or some haemonculi, or more reavers, or an incubi venom... further enhancing killiness.

I think my main issue was just relying too heavily on troops to do killing (probably a leftover habit from my tyranids).

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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 08 2011, 17:34

Our troop can still kill alot comparitively. A full squad of wyches will kill about 4.5 marines on the charge statistically (I did 2 gauntlets and hex w/ agoniser, without drugs ofc) killing half a tact squad for only 150 pts isnt really that bad, considering how they midigate most of the damage back.

Also you have the 5 man warrior w/ blaster in a venom squad, which is used for AT as the venom shoots infantry (which statistically does 4 wounds a turn with the extra cannon) and even 10 man warrior squads dish out 4.5 wounds sitting still, and moving do 6 wounds on average. that isnt bad as a shooting element. Our troops are actually really good, its just how you they work in conjunction with the rest of the list.

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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 08 2011, 17:42

Question: can the unit embarked in a transport shoot at a separate target to the vehicle that they're in?

This makes blasterborn and warrior blaster venoms seem a lot more appealing.

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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 08 2011, 17:53

Answer: yes, absolutely.

And again yes, this makes Blasterborn Venoms great value. Kabalite Venoms... notsomuch. That single Blaster shot just won't be enough to reliably pop transports. Of course you shouldn't regard them in a vacuum but a certain degree of autonomy goes a long way in making a unit worthwhile.

Try replacing/alternating Kabalite Venoms with those same 5-man squads mounted in DL Raiders. Remember, you don't even have to fire the DL and the mounted Blaster at the same target - this way Warriors become quite excellent at distributing AT.

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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 08 2011, 19:15

@Guidebot wrote:
Hey all, DE newcomer here.
I'm having trouble seeing how to actually kill a lot of stuff with DE. I was wondering if anyone could help enlighten me.

For me when it comes to making the kill with Dark Eldar, I always think of two things;

1) Think fast: Adapting to the situation to allow our little bondage evil space elves to inflict the most damage and the creativity for killing something in unconventional ways are the most important things that a Dark Eldar player should keep to heart. Whether it is that good o' flanking move, or that unbelievable gambit of sending a small sacrificial unit to be slaughtered for the greater killing of their slaughterers, everything is a tool for the killing blow.

2) Be ballsy: Dark Eldar greatly rewards the aggressive general, and why would you want to give your opponent a turn or so to react? Give them no such pleasure, and overwhelm them with the choices that they would find hard to make. Understand the concept of a calculated gambit and you can and will make people dance to your rhythm.


Listbuilding helps, but in the end it is the player that will call the shots. a Dark Eldar is no tidal wave, it is a bolt of lightning. IF the player do understand this properties, they would be able to kick ass. Some list do not even use Wyches, and some definitely do not use Venoms but they still have the same killing ratio.



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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 09 2011, 05:37

If you want it to die, hit with a big ol' squad of Incubi. And no, I don't think it's silly at all to run a 9 man squad of them. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 09 2011, 05:53

Those nine Incubi will feel mighty silly when they've just finished chopping one squad of Marines only to find every single las/plas/melta shot in close vincinity pointed at them, though. Or even worse, a platoon of Guardsmen. 3+ can save you only set amount of times when your toughness is still 3.

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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 09 2011, 07:26

@Siticus the Ancient wrote:
Those nine Incubi will feel mighty silly when they've just finished chopping one squad of Marines only to find every single las/plas/melta shot in close vincinity pointed at them, though. Or even worse, a platoon of Guardsmen. 3+ can save you only set amount of times when your toughness is still 3.

Well plan your assault better! Last time I used them to butcher a 10 man squad of Chaos Marines, there was a building obstructing them from return fire, and I consolidated out of LOS. I've had them kill 120 Guardsmen in a single game before. There's nine of them because they start with a pain token carrying Haemonculus, T3 isn't so great, but a 3+ save and a 4+ FNP makes them much more survivable against horde infantry.

And no, they aren't Assault Terminators. But they'll go through a GEQ and MEQ like a hot knife through butter.
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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 09 2011, 08:42

Except they die to Grey Knights , which strike first and ignore 3+ and FNP.

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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 09 2011, 08:46

@Arrex wrote:
@Siticus the Ancient wrote:
Those nine Incubi will feel mighty silly when they've just finished chopping one squad of Marines only to find every single las/plas/melta shot in close vincinity pointed at them, though. Or even worse, a platoon of Guardsmen. 3+ can save you only set amount of times when your toughness is still 3.

Well plan your assault better! Last time I used them to butcher a 10 man squad of Chaos Marines, there was a building obstructing them from return fire, and I consolidated out of LOS. I've had them kill 120 Guardsmen in a single game before. There's nine of them because they start with a pain token carrying Haemonculus, T3 isn't so great, but a 3+ save and a 4+ FNP makes them much more survivable against horde infantry.

And no, they aren't Assault Terminators. But they'll go through a GEQ and MEQ like a hot knife through butter.

9 Incubi is just asking for it. Unless you can consistently do a multiple charge against several squads, they will kill too much for their own good. 5-6 is the magic number for them.


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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 09 2011, 08:49

@Azdrubael wrote:
Except they die to Grey Knights , which strike first and ignore 3+ and FNP.

Exactly, they aren't Assault Terminators. Nor should they ever charge Terminators of any sort. (I've seen them bounce of regular termies before)
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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 09 2011, 09:12

@Crisis_Vyper wrote:


9 Incubi is just asking for it. Unless you can consistently do a multiple charge against several squads, they will kill too much for their own good. 5-6 is the magic number for them.


You cannot count on 5-6 of them magically winning on the enemy's turn every time either. I would rather have more bodies, more reliable performance, and then base my strategy around the assumption that the Incubi will probably destroy their target on the charge. I'm from the old school though, I left the MSU days a long time ago, and I'll be glad to see it's recent revival end with 6th edition. (Where I predict larger squads and foot slogging will make a comeback) It is unusual to field larger squads, but it does have the advantage of making the unit able to survive losses. (three Incubi by themselves aren't scary) There is certainly an argument for using larger squads:

http://www.3plusplus.net/2011/04/dark-eldar-codex-review-part-11-elites.html

I've been running Incubi since 3rd edition, it's one of my favorite units in the entire game. They are a very specific sort of squad; I personally feel they need that pain token from Haemonculus, especially since it mitigates the dangers of them getting shot out of their transport.

You have to be very specific about your targets, they've always been a unit custom designed to obliterate standard tactical Marines and their equivalents. (The ability to make a 10 man squad of Marines evaporate instantly with no support makes them an effective psychological weapon.) They don't mess around, they're not tarpits like Wyches, they're a solid performer that quickly grabs pain tokens and gets more dangerous. Even against GEQs, they're still going to inflict far more losses than Wyches. (Higher average strength, better WS, no saves)

Obviously you don't stick them into combat with Dreads, or anything with lots of invulnerable saves and power weapons. This isn't a rock unit like Hamminators, and without grenades you're going to have to be even more selective with applying them. Ideally it's for assaulting Marines in wrecked Rhinos and making them vanish. (Leaving the rest of your army free to engage while they mop up stranded Marine squads with zero need for support)
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PostSubject: Re: Not killy enough?   Not killy enough? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 09 2011, 18:55

I've been using 6 with PT from Haemy and PGL Archon, but will try 8 soon since

@Arrex wrote:
You cannot count on 5-6 of them magically winning on the enemy's turn every time either

I have found the same. Math only goes so far and after that it's simply more=better.

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