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 First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 13:18

In terms of rules, there's also the possibility of using Stratagems.

For example, the Archon could be renamed Dracon (or even Drukhari Lord). Then there could be a stratagem that turns one of them into an Archon, with a few improvements (e.g. a 4++, +1A, and his aura works on all Drukhari units - not just Kabal ones).


@sekac wrote:


I'd love to see the generic HQs expanded
-Make a lesser version of Haemonculi and call the current one an ancient.
-Make a lesser Archon and call it a Dracon
-Make the beast master an HQ (for the love of God, please!!!)

If they ever did think about the design of our army long enough to adjust it, what auras would generic HQs have? Re-roll 1 to wound for poison would help give kabals something. +1 FNP for the Haemonculus? Too powerful?

I don't think rerolling 1s for poison would be all that useful. Poison Tongue does that already (and without needing to work out the mess of transport space and aura rules) and it's by far the worst Kabal. Not least because Poison weapons are almost beyond saving at this point.

To be honest, outside of maybe Haemonculus Covens, I really don't think Auras are the way to go for our army.

I'd actually like to see the Archon's own aura changed to an effect along the lines of "At the beginning of your shooting phase, choose an enemy within 18" of the Archon (or any transport he's riding). Until the start of your next shooting phase, <Kabal> units reroll 1s to hit against the chosen unit."

Basically, an effect that isn't screwed by him being on a transport (which is literally our only way to have mobile HQs, because our codex was written by a rotting banana), and which also doesn't rely on a mobile army having to all cluster around one guy.

I think instead of auras it would be better to have one or more of the following:

- Abilities similar to what I proposed for the Archon above, where you get bonuses for attacking a designated enemy, rather than by being close to the HQ.

- Abilities that debuff an enemy in some way (e.g. effects could include: reducing toughness by 1, making them reroll 6s on all saves, causing Mortal Wounds if they move, stopping them from Overwatching, making them strike last in combat, giving them a -1 to hit etc.). This sort of thing seems both useful and thematically appropriate for DE.

- Abilities like those of the Necron Overlord (but perhaps with additional range), wherein you pick a single friendly unit to get the buff each turn. This could again be worded to work from transports.

- Abilities that let you pick one or more units at the beginning of the game to receive a permanent buff (representing a more elite, bodyguard unit, or perhaps a Coven unit that's been more heavily augmented).


@sekac wrote:

I'd also like to see Lelith clothed. Unarmored fits her fluff, not undressed. I haven't worn armor in years, doesn't mean I wear a thong out and about.

I think having her with minimal clothes would be fine, honestly. She's basically queen of the gladiators and one of the most important elements of gladiatorial combat is the spectacle. Hence, looking good and/or showing off is often going to be far more important than practicality or pragmatism. And given Lelith's style, I can definitely see her fighting with minimal clothes, almost as proof that that she has no hidden weapons or concealed armour - everything she does is pure skill.

After all, if we get into practicality, the fact that she's bringing knives to a gun-fight is a much bigger issue than her choice of fashion. Laughing

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 14:10

The more I think about it, the more I believe it's not Lelith. I think somehow our story is going to advance in the lore and we will get a new character model. Now it could be someone we already know about, but it could be someone totally new. I don't want to believe that GW will release a new model for a character we already have. New models and characters are coming out everywhere, hopefully we will be the recipient of one of them.

If it is Lelith, I wouldn't be surprised if they let her float between Kabal units as well. Because she has followed Yvraine (at Vect's request) she could be able to pass the word of Ynnead between Cults and Kabal now.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 14:50

@SCP Yeeman wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I believe it's not Lelith. I think somehow our story is going to advance in the lore and we will get a new character model. Now it could be someone we already know about, but it could be someone totally new. I don't want to believe that GW will release a new model for a character we already have. New models and characters are coming out everywhere, hopefully we will be the recipient of one of them.

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest. After all, she's been a Ynnari fangirl for some time now. If we are lucky she'll even be a Ynnari exclusive. But maybe I'm just paranoid that GW is going to butcher even more of our lore for some ridiculous Ynnari stuff (but not without reason, I insist).

@SCP Yeeman wrote:
If it is Lelith, I wouldn't be surprised if they let her float between Kabal units as well. Because she has followed Yvraine (at Vect's request) she could be able to pass the word of Ynnead between Cults and Kabal now.

Exactly Razz
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 15:53

She could get the supreme commander tag. That doesn't play nicely with Raiding Force, but it would let her lead any Drukhari force, including Ynnari ones.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 17:50

Since Vect is gone, there isn't much of a candidate for a Supreme Commander.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 19:20

If any of our characters or units move to a "Ynnari exclusive" it would be the biggest slap in the face yet from GW as it would say "We think that the best way to fix this backwards faction (Ynnari) is to destroy a faction that we have had for several editions and feed it to the dying embers of a faction that shouldn't have been released in the failed stare we released it in" ... i have nothing against ynnari being a faction, the three models it has are great but i do think they needed a bit more than being the Corsair army, but worse ... As for the model reveal, I'm 100% sure it is Lelith, we've already got a new succubus model, and we can be definitively sure we won't be getting kits for Trueborn or Blood brides as they are legend units, so the only logical thing it could be is a Lelith model
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 20:18

@False Son wrote:
Since Vect is gone, there isn't much of a candidate for a Supreme Commander.

So, our Supreme Commander choice would be a character that isn't even Dark Eldar anymore.... It's so risible I can't even deny it. I'm pretty sure she'll be our sole supreme character choice..... Limiting that detachment to wych cult.... Because, no way they'll think about excluding the kabal/wych/coven limitations.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 20:58

@dumpeal wrote:
@False Son wrote:
Since Vect is gone, there isn't much of a candidate for a Supreme Commander.

So, our Supreme Commander choice would be a character that isn't even Dark Eldar anymore.... It's so risible I can't even deny it. I'm pretty sure she'll be our sole supreme character choice..... Limiting that detachment to wych cult.... Because, no way they'll think about excluding the kabal/wych/coven limitations.

I'm confused by what the concern is here. If she gains a supreme commander keyword, all that means is that if you're running a single patrol/battalion/brigade for whatever reason, then you can have her in a different supreme command detachment without losing command points or your main detachment's different obsession. Alternatively, you'd just need a Cult of Strife patrol in a Raiding Force.

It would be a good thing for her to be a Supreme Commander, and her getting the keyword doesn't imply that she's the sole "leader" of all Drukhari. I could see Lelith, Urien and Vect (if he returns to tabletop) all gaining it.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 21:09

Pardon my ignorance but what *is* a Supreme Commander exactly?

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 21:24

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
Pardon my ignorance but what *is* a Supreme Commander exactly?

The supreme commander detachment changed for 9th edition; instead of an obligatory 3 HQs with some optional extras, it's now only a single HQ or Lord of War slot, with the additional caveat that the unit in the detachment must be a Primarch, Daemon Primarch, or Supreme Commander and that model must also be your army's warlord.

Now: the supreme commander keyword doesn't actually exist in-game yet. But the assumption most people are working with is that special characters in fluffy leadership roles will eventually gain it during 9th, allowing them to be taken by armies that don't necessarily match their assigned chapter equivalent without any command point penalty. So an Alaitoc army could run Eldrad, a Test of Skill army could run Lelith, etc.

It might not happen. It might be a slight stretch, fluff-wise. But it'd be damned nice if it did happen.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 21:32

@Burnage wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
@False Son wrote:
Since Vect is gone, there isn't much of a candidate for a Supreme Commander.

So, our Supreme Commander choice would be a character that isn't even Dark Eldar anymore.... It's so risible I can't even deny it. I'm pretty sure she'll be our sole supreme character choice..... Limiting that detachment to wych cult.... Because, no way they'll think about excluding the kabal/wych/coven limitations.

I'm confused by what the concern is here. If she gains a supreme commander keyword, all that means is that if you're running a single patrol/battalion/brigade for whatever reason, then you can have her in a different supreme command detachment without losing command points or your main detachment's different obsession. Alternatively, you'd just need a Cult of Strife patrol in a Raiding Force.

It would be a good thing for her to be a Supreme Commander, and her getting the keyword doesn't imply that she's the sole "leader" of all Drukhari. I could see Lelith, Urien and Vect (if he returns to tabletop) all gaining it.

We're still limited to 3 detachments. If you take the supreme commander detachment, you can't take 3 patrols and thus, can't have the raiding party. Which mean you should only take the supreme commander and a normal batalion, or patrol. If so, every subfaction choice will matter a lot. Having to use wych is a big drawback.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 21:41

Just to clarify as well; the supreme command detachment doesn't restrict your "main" detachment to being the same sub-faction or even faction as your supreme commander. Potentially, assuming that she becomes one, you could take Lelith as the supreme commander of a Craftworld or Harlequin army. Chaos players will be taking advantage of this a lot to get Magnus or Mortarian in their armies.

Yes, we still have a limit on the number of detachments we can take, but this alongside the viability of Raiding Force gives us more options to get faction-locked special characters into our lists than we had during the majority of 8th edition.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 29 2020, 22:31

Okay, cheers for the explanation.

I have to say, though, having Lelith as a Supreme Commander would seem very strange, to say the least.

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 30 2020, 11:20

Wasn't there a beta tester who was asked what the hell this new supreme commander detachment was and he said "anyone can guess who each factions supreme commander is" or something along those lines...
I don't think that lelith will be a supreme commander and I'm still convinced we will get vect back...
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 30 2020, 11:34

Lelith will not be the supreme commander lol.

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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 30 2020, 16:09

@DevilDoll wrote:
Wasn't there a beta tester who was asked what the hell this new supreme commander detachment was and he said "anyone can guess who each factions supreme commander is" or something along those lines...
I don't think that lelith will be a supreme commander and I'm still convinced we will get vect back...

Correct the Frontline guys said that and I posted it a few weeks ago. They have been play-testing 9th Codices for a while now.

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 30 2020, 17:15

Could fall in line with GWs current release scheme for factions that get no refresh
1 book + two model sets
Similar to psychic awakening and the Marine supplement releases
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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 31 2020, 13:31

Personaly i think this is not new Lilith model.
It could be just another succubus model with new pose, like previous time it was.

Or maybe a wyches re-pack.
There`s no need for new Lilith model in my opinion.

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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 31 2020, 16:17

@Devilogical wrote:
Personaly i think this is not new Lilith model.
It could be just another succubus model with new pose, like previous time it was.

Or maybe a wyches re-pack.
There`s no need for new Lilith model in my opinion.

I do agree there's no need for a new Lelith model, but there's even less need for a new Succubus model. At least that one is plastic, and GW seems to be on the mission of replacing all finecast models. They already did the Incubi and Drahzar, and lots of other armies got a few of their finecast models replaced as well. For a change they are doing something I agree with. I would just have given Lelith less priority. Especially since I really don't believe Lelith is going to be our Supreme Commander.

But if Azrael is right about the 1 book + 2 models thing (I really really hope so, but at the same time am sceptical about that amount of GW love for Drukhari), we might get both plastic Lelith AND Vect.

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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 31 2020, 18:12

@Gelmir wrote:

But if Azrael is right about the 1 book + 2 models thing (I really really hope so, but at the same time am sceptical about that amount of GW love for Drukhari), we might get both plastic Lelith AND Vect.

Until I receive it and hold it in my hand, I'm ADAMANT there won't be a Vect model. I'm not going to fall for it again. You know the saying... "Fool me a thousand time, shame on you..."

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 31 2020, 19:02

I am expecting a Vect model for us in the future, but - and this is a very significant caveat - I don't expect it until all of our current models have been updated to plastic. I sure as hell wouldn't expect it alongside Lelith here.
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 31 2020, 19:20

I don't expect anything either. But the alternatives are that we don't have a supreme commander, or Lelith or Urien have to become supreme commander. Both sound like weird choices to me.

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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 31 2020, 21:56

Not trying to throw a blanket on the "party" here ... lol Multiple people are claiming GW is replacing all the finecast with plastic. And they are pointing out that Incubi and Drahzar are now plastic. OK. But is that really true ? Doing Incubi in Plastic makes a boatload of sense. Why ? Because generally nobody runs only one incubi. They run 5 or more. Right ? Therefore Plastic Incubi are a wonderful thing. For Us. Now Drahzar ????? I'm a Noob so not very smart but aren't we only allowed to take ONE of him ? So while certainly convenient to not have to deal with a resin figure, we only have to do it once.

So in my clueless view Drahzar wasn't done simply to replace a resin figure with plastic. Thus I believe that GW wouldn't be a huge rush to replace Lelith. And as far as resin figures go, her sculpt is pretty good.

That's my rationale for thinking this is not Lelith.
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 31 2020, 22:05

I am sorry, I really don't follow your point. Drahzar was made plastic because we can use only one and we already had a finecast? How does this hint to Lelith (also a finecast model) not becoming a plastic model?

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model   First look at the (Possible) New Lelith model - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 31 2020, 22:23

If I had to take a guess, the thing I'm most sure about is that more than one model will be released. Lelith or not, 7th edition had 4 plastic models (Archon, Succbus, Haemonclus and Wracks) and 8th edition had Drazhar + Incbi.

Is there a reason why they would make a plastic Lelith? No. But there is no realistic alternative that matches the glimpses we have seen.

Looking at the bigger picture we have heard countless times that GW wants to replace their finecast models. And there are many reasons why this is reasonable (one of them is protecting their intellectual property as plastic molds are notoriously difficult/expensive to make).

Akin to 7th edition, I could see plastic HQs being released, but this time it would be our special characters. Lelith + Urien + something Kabal. I don't think it's gonna be Vect becasue I suspect GW reserving him as a Lord of War if he ever gets a model.

However, I think all other known characters from the Kabal side of things are fair game. Malys, the Duke and even Malidrach. What's more I could even see a model for Valossian Sythrac, as he is the right hand of Vect and was featured prominently in the Path of the Archon. And honestly, having the "Darth Vader" of the Kabal of The Black Heart would be pretty awesome.

It's not something I'd bet my money on, but given the resurgence of the Necrons it makes sense that the "big guys" of Commorragh are more involved now.
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