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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 12 2020, 21:24

Skari mentioned he has been having luck with 5 man Hellion squads. Just putting that out into the universe.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 13 2020, 09:43

I don't dislike Scourges. It's that they really need a list suited for, it's nearly impossible to just stick them in and being fine.
Pushing the opponent to think about them it's more than the actual damage they do.


PS: 5 w/4 Shredders is maybe our best anti-blob shooting unit we can field. Yes, this setting probably it's my favourite right now and just 1 squad of them can be stickable in most of the lists giving you that punch against 6+ model units when you need it.
Other settings rely on what I've said before.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 13 2020, 12:42

I ran three 5 man hellion squads recently. They were good for objective grabbing, but AS ALWAYS, when the opponent turns so much as a flashlight against them, they disappear.
Still not worth it in my opinion.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 13 2020, 14:24

@Skulnbonz wrote:
I ran three 5 man hellion squads recently. They were good for objective grabbing, but AS ALWAYS, when the opponent turns so much as a flashlight against them, they disappear.
Still not worth it in my opinion.

Even with Toughness drug and cover?
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 13 2020, 17:24

Cover?
It makes our toughness 3 one wound model save on a 4+ instead of a 5+.
I would never take toughness drug on Hellions, as either +1 Str or, more often, +1 A is the drug that benefits them the most.

I stated above, I used them, I like using them, but I never will use them in a tournament due to the absence of any real save (they should have a 3++ or 4++ jink save versus all shooting) and battlefield role. (with the stats they have now)

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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 14 2020, 01:42

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Cover?
It makes our toughness 3 one wound model save on a 4+ instead of a 5+.
I would never take toughness drug on Hellions, as either +1 Str or, more often, +1 A is the drug that benefits them the most.

I stated above, I used them, I like using them, but I never will use them in a tournament due to the absence of any real save (they should have a 3++ or 4++ jink save versus all shooting) and battlefield role. (with the stats they have now)

Yeah I would love to see or an huge buff on charge (like Ap-3 and +1D) making them some glasscannon hard hitters in melee, or making them nimble, giving them some malus on hitting/wounding them and actually making good use of their Hit and Run ability.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 14 2020, 15:25

To get back to the post topic. I strongly consider using dark lance scourge. When you drop them, try to shoot at a unit that give a -1 to hit and you'll negate the drawback of heavy weapon. you then keep them static, in cover and each time you want to move them, you shoot flyer.
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Oaka
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 15 2020, 23:16

Is there a clarification for what Open Topped means in regards to the units embarked are also affected by restrictions and modifiers that affect the transport?

You can't put three units of Scourges in a Covens Tantalus and get Dark Technomancer for them, right?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 16 2020, 02:09

@Oaka wrote:
Is there a clarification for what Open Topped means in regards to the units embarked are also affected by restrictions and modifiers that affect the transport?

You can't put three units of Scourges in a Covens Tantalus and get Dark Technomancer for them, right?

DT literally says "a unit with this obsession.... choose this unit weapons" So no it doesn not work on a non DT unit b.c its not the vehicle that is getting modified but the weapon.

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Oaka
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 16 2020, 02:15

Yeah I thought that too because it's a choice.  Would you say the Wych Cult Obsession Test of Skill would work though because it is a blanket effect on the model?

Edit: After searching through the forum it looks like this came up a lot in 8th edition with the Flayed Skull obsession, so the precedent looks like embarked units cannot gain any benefits from obsessions that affect the transport. So no way to give Scourges any buffs by sticking them in a Tantalus.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 16 2020, 11:16

The rules for vehicle effects to effect the riders are there b.c the units in the vehicle are not always interacting with other rules properly. For example if the vehicle moves the units didn't actually move b.c they are off the board, hence the rule. There are really only a few unique rules that isn't "obvious" that works like how you are saying, and nids has 3 of them (b.c of fortifications and how IB, Synapse work).

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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 17 2020, 13:49

Played Scourges for the first time in years, and was fairly impressed with their damage output and mobility. I played them wrong, and they died immediately after they shot, but I think that was more my fault than theirs.

For the points, they are our most efficient special weapon platform. They deep strike without any CP cost. They have a small footprint to hide behind things.

Generally by turn 2-3 when they come in, most/all of my heavy support is dead, so they are a nice target for Fire and Fade. I planned on using them to Build Teleporter, but that was far too ambitious (will not assume that again)

They will definitely make it into my next list.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 17 2020, 13:57

Just bear in mind that they can't Fire and Fade on the turn that they arrive from deep strike, which is a significant limitation for them.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 17 2020, 14:09

@Burnage wrote:
Just bear in mind that they can't Fire and Fade on the turn that they arrive from deep strike, which is a significant limitation for them.

Is this still a faq or in the rules now? Honestly just for reference for myself.

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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 17 2020, 14:32

@Burnage, I did not know that (would not have affected my game yesterday, but good to know going foward).

The lack of Fire and Fade on the turn of Deep Strike would be significant. Im guessing this also affects anything that Deepstrikes/Outflanks (thinking of Ravagers doing Screaming Jets)?
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 17 2020, 16:06

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
Just bear in mind that they can't Fire and Fade on the turn that they arrive from deep strike, which is a significant limitation for them.

Is this still a faq or in the rules now? Honestly just for reference for myself.

I think it's covered in the core rules, "Reinforcement units cannot make a Normal Move, an Advance, Fall Back or Remain Stationary this turn."

Slight caveat in that there's probably some leeway there now to argue that Fire and Fade doesn't qualify as a normal move, but it would certainly be debatable. It definitely shuts down using Quicken or Twilight Pathways on a deep striking unit.
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Oaka
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 17 2020, 16:17

I've been watching a discussion specifically trying to determine if Fire and Fade is a normal move to allow units to embark into transports. Whatever the consensus becomes, it's nice to know one of the two tricks will work, right?
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 17 2020, 19:16

It just says move as if it was the movement phase, does that make it a normal move? I'll look into it late when i get home.

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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 17 2020, 19:47

Ya, I am not sure about this interpretation. Dont have my rulebook on me, curios to see if I have been playing this wrong.

I still think Scourges are powerful, even without FaF. Dont think they are worth taking a second squad, but they still unlock Transports in their detachment Smile
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Subsanity
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 17 2020, 23:02

I usaly just take 2 blasters and 3 shardcarbins. Support whoever it needs to. They have done well in my games and will keep them as support.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 18 2020, 17:40

I read the Fire and Fade strat last night, I dont see why we would be unable to use it the turn a unit Deep Strikes. The only restriction on it seems to be that the unit fired that turn.

Not sure if the oportunity cost is worth it for just 2 blasters. For that same price you can take 3 heat lances, or an entire other unit.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 18 2020, 18:28

My reading is that "move as if it were your movement phase" means that it does count as a normal move, which is prevented from taking place after a unit has arrived via reinforcements thanks to the key rules.

However, I'll grant that this is hazy and does allow another wonky rules interaction - if Fire and Fade grants a normal move then currently a unit can disembark from a transport, shoot, use Fire and Fade and then re-embark in the same turn. Not too useful for us, very useful for Craftworlders with something like a Dark Reaper/Wave Serpent combo.

My take, though, is that the transport interaction is currently legal while the deep strike one isn't.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 18 2020, 22:38

@Burnage wrote:
My reading is that "move as if it were your movement phase" means that it does count as a normal move, which is prevented from taking place after a unit has arrived via reinforcements thanks to the key rules.

However, I'll grant that this is hazy and does allow another wonky rules interaction - if Fire and Fade grants a normal move then currently a unit can disembark from a transport, shoot, use Fire and Fade and then re-embark in the same turn. Not too useful for us, very useful for Craftworlders with something like a Dark Reaper/Wave Serpent combo.

My take, though, is that the transport interaction is currently legal while the deep strike one isn't.

It's funny, because I can pretty much guarantee they decided to throw in the adjective "normal" in the movement section to avoid exactly these sorts of issues. By adhering to specific terminology you can avoid a lot of ambiguity.

The issue is they don't adhere to specific terminology. They try to, but have no mechanism to enforce it and always default to conversational English rather than technical. So then they just end up doubling their terms. Is a "normal move" different from "move just like in your movement phase"? Who knows, only one of those things is explained.

Word choice, while critically important to understanding how to play a game, has never been particularly important to GW. They have no institutional structure, vocabulary, or formatting to their rules writing. It's a constantly reinvented "system" subject to the personal writing style of whomever happens to be writing that section that day.

I'm just not going to do either fancy thing with F&F until they FAQ it because there is a 0% chance they actually thought about either of these scenarios since they wrote that last edition.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 18 2020, 23:19

@fisheyes wrote:
I read the Fire and Fade strat last night, I dont see why we would be unable to use it the turn a unit Deep Strikes. The only restriction on it seems to be that the unit fired that turn.

Not sure if the oportunity cost is worth it for just 2 blasters. For that same price you can take 3 heat lances, or an entire other unit.

New reserve rules says you can not make a Normal Move, fallback, Remain stationary, or Advance move for any reason. The argument is there is no just "move" now outside of using the word move to mean it did one of the following move actions.

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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 19 2020, 14:17

Ah, I see what you guys are getting at. Personally, I think a unit deep striking then FaF hardly breaks the game.

However, I will not be using it to get into/out of transports on the same turn. That is obviously not RAI (to me anyway).
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