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albions-angel
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 13:27

@fisheyes wrote:
The Blast Pistol is just something that we should probably consider throwing anywhere possible. When completing a list, it would be one of the first thing to get cut to free up points.

I noticed that the 4 blaster scourges cost the same as a 3 lance Ravager. Has anyone tried out a Lance Spam list yet? That seems to be the direction that GW is pushing us (along with Talos).

I DIDNT try lance spam vs AdMech and regretted it. It wasnt even a "good" admech team, with my friend deliberately taking non-anti air due to it ending the game to easily.

I thought S5 assault 3 Dissis would be worth it, because more shots is more chance to hit and wound. Instead they wiffed on an army that was mostly T7. The 2DL and 2Void Lances on my flyers did WAY better (even though they missed a lot too). Whats annoying is the swing. If a Dissi does get through, its 2 damage. If a DL gets through, its just as likely to be 1 damage as it is 6 damage. Frankly, at this point, they need to either let our ravagers and flyers take haywires, or do something beneficial for the DLs in a similar vein (if Vehicle or Titan, do 1 mortal wound in addition to all other damage on a wound roll of 4+). It doesnt even need the 6+ D3 mortals, just something to make our "lore-scary" darklight weapons that "melt through even the toughest of armour" actually, you know, melt through the toughest of armour.

In the end, I simply couldnt out damage the bloody robots, especially with them healing AND shooting 18 shots each, even in combat. DL would have got through more reliably, but with far fewer shots, Im not sure it would have actually upped the wound count overall.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 13:35

The thing with swingy D6 weapons is saturation. We would need to spam at least a dozen Lances (all targetting the same thing) to try and get that average 3.5 damage through. When only 1-2 lances land hits, it is way too likely for us to roll 1s and 2s. When 6 lances get through, that enemy vehicle is almost certainly dead.

Full disclosure, I have not run a Lance spam list since 7th.
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albions-angel
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 13:45

@fisheyes wrote:
The thing with swingy D6 weapons is saturation. We would need to spam at least a dozen Lances (all targetting the same thing) to try and get that average 3.5 damage through. When only 1-2 lances land hits, it is way too likely for us to roll 1s and 2s. When 6 lances get through, that enemy vehicle is almost certainly dead.

Full disclosure, I have not run a Lance spam list since 7th.

Exactly. Problem is, Dissis are now so expensive and are not effective enough as anti tank. Leaving us with Haywire Grenade strat (useful in a pinch, but only once per turn) and Haywire blasters (which are Talos or Scourge only - talos are already good, but expensive in both points and money, and require coven, which some people dont have so would need to buy an entire new army basically, while scourge, as we are discussing just dont have the staying power).

Even with Blaster and Blast Pistol on Kabalites in raiders, I just didnt have saturation with Darklight to do anything.
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Braden Campbell
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 18:05

So... triple-lance Ravagers and DL Scourges.

Who'd have thunk it?
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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 18:37

Dissies were never effective anti-tank. They were finishers on vehicles more than anything. I think the Reaper is our best bet for long range firepower. It is better than a Triple Lance Ravager, potentially more shots, cheaper, more wounds and can put the hurt down more effectively.
I'm not sold on DL Scourge but would like to see how they perform. I would rather suicide 4 Blasters and always hit on 3s than shoot long range on 4s. I think a big thing for Scourge is that they can DS. Putting them with DLs negates that ability. You're either not DSing to use as platform so you waste that ability. Or, you DS them and you're not using the range of the Lance.
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albions-angel
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 18:39

@Braden Campbell wrote:
So... triple-lance Ravagers and DL Scourges.

Who'd have thunk it?

Eh, assuming you take 3 ravagers and 1 unit of scourges, thats still only 13 DL, 4 of which are only around for 1 round before being melted, and even if all those get through, they need to all target the same thing to do reliably minimal damage. And its expensive for such swing.

On paper, DLs look really, really scary. Every time I got through a save and my friend asked me "whats the damage", he always drew a sharp breath at "D6". But I usually rolled mid to low on that, which makes them far, far less scary. I would have preferred "2" as its just more consistent.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 19:01

There were a number of units (older marine dreadnaughts for example) where the Dissies were much better AT than Lances. Basically if the enemy had a 4++ save, you wanted the 3 shots over the 1.

Test of Skill also made Dissies abolutely top notch anti-tank.

But with how 9th is going, we may need to rethink the role of Dissies. Taking a unit of Blaster Scourges, a Dark Lance Ravager and a bunch of Lance Raiders could be competitive again. I recall the days when we were loading Raiders up with Blaster Warriors and fitting something like 30 Lance equivalents into a list.

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Dr.Clock
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09 2020, 16:16

Took 2x6 Scourges vs. Mech Sisters at 2k last night.

Accompanied by an MSU Triple Patrol of: 3 HQ, 2x5 Mandrakes, 3 Raiders (Grots/wyches/warriors), 2 Venoms (warriors/wracks) , 2 Ravagers.

Loadouts:

6 w/ 3 dark lance

6 w/ 3 blaster

Report:

the two units came on deep left flank. Just slightly missed kiling an Exorcist in round 1. Opponent wheels it and kills one in return (they are out of sight except for that side). Second turn they finish it off and nearly wreck an Immolator (i rolled bad in round two). Then the opponent decides they got to go, and bring their Retributors back, plus a unit of Sisters, to deal with it. Turn 3 the last 3 go to ground just to try and score a secondary in their quarter for turn 4, and that works.

Key Learnings:

Darklight just works. Even with middling dice it gets you there.

Ghostplate is pretty nifty.

They're still all going to die, and in 9th when you drop a few dudes you're mostly gonna want to scavenge for points, so just plan to bail out somewhere out of sight with any survivors in turn 4.

Turn 1 drop means turn 3 slump, but you can't give up the tempo with progressive scoring. Have something substantial in the pocket for turn 4 push.

Next time I'll remember to Fire and Fade: I ended up not really using nearly enough CP up top...

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09 2020, 17:33

I hate scourges in out DE boo, way to costly for almost not damage and all the glass. When they are more costly than Eradicators with 1/3 the damage and survivability, they are pointless to even consider.

All mine are thrown into a box and wont come out until a new Codex is released for us.

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harlokin
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09 2020, 21:31

@amishprn86 wrote:
I hate scourges in out DE boo, way to costly for almost not damage and all the glass. When they are more costly than Eradicators with 1/3 the damage and survivability, they are pointless to even consider.

All mine are thrown into a box and wont come out until a new Codex is released for us.

Same for me.

Whenever I consider taking them I get to thinking if I wouldn't rather have Mandrakes instead....and the Scourges get put away again.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09 2020, 23:47

Yeah, scourges are 130-150pts depending how you take them for 5 T3 guys, Mandrakes are 85 with at least a -1 and a 5++ always, they also are equal damage most the time, at least point for point they are and even better at times. And then Mandrakes are better and has melee options if you so choose to.

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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 10 2020, 08:41

I love the Scourge models, they are one of the reasons I picked DE when I started 40k. I do put them on a list sometimes, but mostly because they look like a purdy surprise when I deepstrike them on the table, and because I don't play competitive. My friends all do the same and sometimes play useless models just because they look good.
But even with my love for the models, I could never call them competitive.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 10 2020, 14:18

A unit of 4 blasters at 135 compares to 145 pt Reapers, where the Scourges will put out similar damage (statistically 0.5 more shots per unit), at shorter range.

The scourges also benefit from Strike from the Shadows (so 2+ armor save), in addition to Lighting Fast Reflexes and Fire and Fade.

They also have native Deepstrike, and can collect a larger selection of Secondaries once their main target is eliminated.

I think there is a different role for Scourges than Mandrakes, and we have not yet seen the full potential of Scourges.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 10 2020, 15:56

Something I find with Scourges is that they seem to pay an awful lot for mobility that they rarely ever get to use.

My experience from about 90% of games is that Scourges could have Deep Strike and no extra mobility and I wouldn't notice any difference in how they played on the table. Because they're just blown away the turn after they arrive.

I find myself comparing them to IG Scions. A 5-man Scion squad can have 2 plasmaguns or meltaguns, plus a plasma pistol on the sergeant, for just 70pts. That's 5 S7 AP-3 D2 shots at 12". Now obviously Scourge Blasters are probably stronger, but they're also almost double the cost. Hence, for about the same price, I could have 2 Scion squads with a total of 10 S7 AP-3 D2 shots at 12" (plus some extra Hot-Shot Lasgun shots).

The final kicker, though, is that the Scions squads are troops.


@Gelmir wrote:
I love the Scourge models, they are one of the reasons I picked DE when I started 40k. I do put them on a list sometimes, but mostly because they look like a purdy surprise when I deepstrike them on the table, and because I don't play competitive. My friends all do the same and sometimes play useless models just because they look good.
But even with my love for the models, I could never call them competitive.

Scourges feel like another of the models that's just so wasted. They're one of the most beautiful models in the range (I'd argue of any range), but they're just stuck as 1-wound suicide squads with zero interesting rules or features.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 10 2020, 16:35

Scourges really shouldn't have gone up in price. They're already super fragile and fly means less than it used to.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 10 2020, 17:34

They "can" stay costly if they had rules to justify that, like a free shooting when they DS, or always just has JSJ, then they could use their movement better.

But about Scourges vs a Ravager, Ravagers also has double the wounds and toughness, and Invul, can shoot into combat, can get re-rolls, and also can DS yes for CP but we have that option.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 10 2020, 22:10

@amishprn86 wrote:
They "can" stay costly if they had rules to justify that, like a free shooting when they DS, or always just has JSJ, then they could use their movement better.

But about Scourges vs a Ravager, Ravagers also has double the wounds and toughness, and Invul, can shoot into combat, can get re-rolls, and also can DS yes for CP but we have that option.

I think giving scourges the ability to move and fire heavy weapons or advance and fire assault weapons without penalty would be a great niche for them.

It's similar to what various detachment traits offer across many armies, so would make up for the fact they can't get obsessions. It would also make them a good alternative to ravagers. They'd have a higher damage output, but on a much more fragile (yet easier to hide) platform.

It would make them feel like the aerial specialists they're supposed to be.

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Darklord
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 11 2020, 10:46

I like my scourges as models.
But I prefer to take Mandrakes that are a better deep Strike unit.

My two favorite units since I started Dark Eldar army in V6 are reavers who lost their good aptitudes and Scourges don't win anything (unless +2 in Power ranking).

Thanks to GeuWeu.


@sekac wrote:
I think giving scourges the ability to move and fire heavy weapons or advance and fire assault weapons without penalty would be a great niche for them.

It's similar to what various detachment traits offer across many armies, so would make up for the fact they can't get obsessions. It would also make them a good alternative to ravagers. They'd have a higher damage output, but on a much more fragile (yet easier to hide) platform.

It would make them feel like the aerial specialists they're supposed to be.
I'll be happy they have that or something like a free "fire and fade", PoP Round 3 Add 1 to hit rolls in shooting phase.

Perhaps it could be a good idea for all the faction, to uptade Power of pain : In Round 3 Add 1 to hit rolls made for units with this bonus within 6" of ennemy models.
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Braden Campbell
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 11 2020, 16:44

With a 36" striking range, aren't "lance Scourges" somewhat safe from retaliation? It's not like they have to get right up,in their target's face.

I,guess I'm just thinking of the "warrior sniper squads" of yesteryear, and how Scourges might be the evolution of that...
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Dr.Clock
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 11 2020, 17:39

@Braden Campbell wrote:
With a 36" striking range, aren't "lance Scourges" somewhat safe from retaliation? It's not like they have to get right up,in their target's face.

Yes - add in Fire and Fade and you're grand, but only if you can find a good spot to camp in that way, so it's pretty situational and you're not likely to have both cover and long range at the same time...

I agree that Mandrakes are more efficient, but I'm pretty all-in on taking both even though upping redundancy on Troops or going for a Coven hammer would probably be easier...

I did find that I had alot more CP to throw around in 9th, so next time I'll likely break out Hunt from Shadows or Lightning-fast Reflexes on them to hopefully stay in it a turn longer or at least soak more fire.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 11 2020, 19:53

10 Kabalites with 2 Blasters and 1 Dark Lance are fairly competitive with 5 Scourges with 4 Blasters at the same cost.

I'm still on Shredders, because it is hard to get that critical mass of anti infantry shots in this edition. 115 to essentially annihilate anyone silly enough to bring am infantry blob.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 12 2020, 02:33

@Dr.Clock wrote:
@Braden Campbell wrote:
With a 36" striking range, aren't "lance Scourges" somewhat safe from retaliation? It's not like they have to get right up,in their target's face.

Yes - add in Fire and Fade and you're grand, but only if you can find a good spot to camp in that way, so it's pretty situational and you're not likely to have both cover and long range at the same time...

I agree that Mandrakes are more efficient, but I'm pretty all-in on taking both even though upping redundancy on Troops or going for a Coven hammer would probably be easier...

I did find that I had alot more CP to throw around in 9th, so next time I'll likely break out Hunt from Shadows or Lightning-fast Reflexes on them to hopefully stay in it a turn longer or at least soak more fire.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

The problem is every thing can have equal "safety" now with minor work o, points, or CP, when other units can do the same thing for less and still do more damage at the same time are generally more survivable too, its hard to think Scourges are worth it. A Reaper is the same cost but gets all its traits, over double the wounds, higher toughness and an Invul and isn't -1 to hit when moving.


@False Son wrote:
10 Kabalites with 2 Blasters and 1 Dark Lance are fairly competitive with 5 Scourges with 4 Blasters at the same cost.  

I'm still on Shredders, because it is hard to get that critical mass of anti infantry shots in this edition.  115 to essentially annihilate anyone silly enough to bring am infantry blob.

This, and Kabals can FnF too, they can also still outflank for a CP or use other stratagems.


There are just to many units that can do what Scourges does but better in some way.

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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 12 2020, 16:46

I really think you guys are underrating the value of a mobile squad able to take multiple special weapons. How many of us cried when they took away Trueborn?

I am still trying to get the Scourges into a game, but Covid is really hampering my ability to do so. Hopefully I get in a game this weekend and am able to comment with some experience to back up my opinions.

Hard to tell the impact of the new Blast rules (minimum 3 shots PER WEAPON instead of per dice), we may be seeing even more Primaris blobs showing up. If that becomes true, then maybe we need to go back to Dissie spam to deal with them. The eternal Lance vs Dissie debate continues Razz
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 12 2020, 18:06

@amishprn86 wrote:


The problem is every thing can have equal "safety" now with minor work, points, or CP, when other units can do the same thing for less and still do more damage at the same time are generally more survivable too, its hard to think Scourges are worth it. A Reaper is the same cost but gets all its traits, over double the wounds, higher toughness and an Invul and isn't -1 to hit when moving.

...

This, and Kabals can FnF too, they can also still outflank for a CP or use other stratagems.


There are just to many units that can do what Scourges does but better in some way.

This depends on what your definition of 'worth it' is...

For me 'having the mini already' is an important thing, as is 'pleasure in using it', and Scourges are still more fun for me to use than having to buy/paint a third Ravager or a Reaper tbh. Realistically the 'inefficiency margin' is in the realm of one or two kabalites in a list... so it's not too egregious just yet to my eye.

Other choices are more efficient, but that doesn't mean that the question as to armament or strategy shouldn't be had within the original question of the OP...

It looks like a number of people like different loadouts when we accept the OP's conceit that we are already taking Scourges, depending on the kind of shooting they feel is needed in their lists... I could see the Shredders' utility for sure, but for me Scourges are the place where I actually start to get the critical mass of dark light weaponry - current list has 17 lances and 3 dissies from 7 sources... And I like to save hordes for the few CC beatsticks I can afford at 2k (wyches and Grots from classic triple-patrol).

Cheers,

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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 12 2020, 19:24

@fisheyes wrote:
I really think you guys are underrating the value of a mobile squad able to take multiple special weapons. How many of us cried when they took away Trueborn?

No I don't I played Corsairs all of 7th, I had max troops with max Coteories of MSU 5mans with 2 special weapons in each and they have their own unit of Scourges too (4 special weapons). My army was almost nothing but Fly special weapons teams. I actually LOVE that play style and yes I would LOVE to play all 30 of my Scourges, sadly IMO they are not even viable. I'd rather them be no weapons and use as a fast mobile unit, but then why not just take Hellions or RWFs?

Mobility and weapons are fine, but not at the price we are paying for them for how little they do. I just take Mandrake instead.

PS: Trueborn were also in vehicles and had traits, you could also take 6 weapons not 4, thou no one did as its to many points.

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