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Braden Campbell
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Braden Campbell

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PostSubject: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 22 2020, 18:19

So, my Scourges are currently in the simpgreen vats awaiting a fresh, new life. Meantime, how should they best be armed in the face of 9th ed.?
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 22 2020, 19:44

Shredders. Just don't deep strike them against enemies with Auspex Scan.

Heat Lances if you don't have enough AT.
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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 23 2020, 01:33

I would recommend Haywire Blaster for AT and some anti light infantry.

Heat Lances lack the range and consistency to put wounds on vehicles.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 23 2020, 08:03

Put 15 of them into a FL Tantalus.
Deepstrike it.
Cast the +1 to hit vs flyers (FL stratagem) into the Tantalus.

Shoot with +1 to hit with 15 Scourges against flying stuff, because FaQ. And laugh Smile
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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 23 2020, 11:14

@Cerve wrote:
Put 15 of them into a FL Tantalus.
Deepstrike it.
Cast the +1 to hit vs flyers (FL stratagem) into the Tantalus.

Shoot with +1 to hit with 15 Scourges against flying stuff, because FaQ. And laugh Smile

lol! I kinda want to now. I guess it's time to finally buy that Tantalus.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 23 2020, 11:19

@Gelmir wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Put 15 of them into a FL Tantalus.
Deepstrike it.
Cast the +1 to hit vs flyers (FL stratagem) into the Tantalus.

Shoot with +1 to hit with 15 Scourges against flying stuff, because FaQ. And laugh Smile

lol! I kinda want to now. I guess it's time to finally buy that Tantalus.


Lol I'm not totally sure that it is correct rule wise, but the idea it's fun Very Happy


I asked on the FaQ topic
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Grimoire
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 23 2020, 17:41

"FL" Tantalus ? Can someone elaborate ?
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 23 2020, 18:28

Flayed Skull Tantalus
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Braden Campbell
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 23 2020, 18:36

:has senior moment:

So, uh, what about 4 with splinter cannnons?
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27 2020, 12:50

They have the lowest opportunity cost to bring Blasters. 4 Blasters with a Blast Pistol is only 140 pts, the same as 5 warriors with a Blaster and Blast Pistol in a Venom.

With Behind Enemy Lines and Repair Teleporter secondaries, I think Scourges will be a nice addition to many lists.

*Full disclosure, This is Theoryhammer, I have not run them in a game it

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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27 2020, 15:01

@fisheyes wrote:
They have the lowest opportunity cost to bring Blasters. 4 Blasters with a Blast Pistol is only 140 pts, the same as 5 warriors with a Blaster and Blast Pistol in a Venom.

With Behind Enemy Lines and Repair Teleporter secondaries, I think Scourges will be a nice addition to many lists.

*Full disclosure, This is Theoryhammer, I have not run them in a game it
I actually like the idea. It's damage output is a little variable but with 4x Blasters, this is largely mitigated.

It seems like a viable AT option and with Fire & Fade Stratagem you might actually be able to keep them alive for more than one turn. Deep strike in, blow up a tank and hide behind Obscuring Terrain.

The only part that I dislike is that there are no ablative wounds. Each casualty reduces the effective output of this unit. And each ablative wound cost 15 points.
It's protected by a T3 and 4+/6++ saves and can lose two wounds before it looses effectiveness.

So with two ablative wounds this unit clocks in at 160 points, which is a Ravager which can be buffed by obsessions and Archon.
A Ravager can soak 4 wounds without loosing any output.
It's protected by a T6 and 4+/5++ and can get 6+ FnP through Black Heart Cabal's Obsession.

So I come to the point: do I want to risk extra squishy shooting platform to gain Deep Strike and extra mobility.
If I can afford both, this seems desirable to me by having a shooting threat by Ravagers boosted by an Archon. If they hide from their LoS you can Deep Strike in and blast them from another side as long as you can place them in 18" and have an Obscuring piece of terrain in range.
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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27 2020, 15:13

@Braden Campbell wrote:
:has senior moment:

So, uh, what about 4 with splinter cannnons?

This unit would put out 15 Poisonous shots at 18".

Wich does on average 5 wounds (assuming no mods to hit), regardless toughness. So can calculate how much damage comes through, based on the saves your target has.

With AP 0 I'm typically not really impressed by poisonous weapons.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27 2020, 15:31

I see Scourges being more "suicide squad", then consistent damage over the course of the game.

DS in 2-3 squads, position to only see/be seen from 1 tank, blow up tank, cross fingers and hope that you survive.

You may be able to protect 1 unit with Fire and Fade, but many will die the turn they come in. But Glasshammer is the name of the game when you play DE Wink
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27 2020, 17:03

@fisheyes wrote:
They have the lowest opportunity cost to bring Blasters. 4 Blasters with a Blast Pistol is only 140 pts, the same as 5 warriors with a Blaster and Blast Pistol in a Venom.

Do you think the Blast Pistol is worth it?

It seems like a lot of the time you won't be in range to fire it.

Granted, it's only 5pts. I'm just wondering how often you'll actually get to use it. Razz


To be honest, I'm actually wondering about the viability of using Dark Lances in place of Blasters. They're currently the same cost, and the maximum -1 to hit means that there are quite a few targets where you can move and shoot them with no additional penalty.

Not sure it's better overall, just something to consider.


@El_Jairo wrote:

With AP 0 I'm typically not really impressed by poisonous weapons.

That's because poison weapons are garbage, but for some reason GW values them as if they were solid gold.

"Hey, you know how no one is taking non-mandatory Splinter Cannons even on Venoms?"
"Yeah?"
"Well what if we kept them at 10pts on Infantry and made them even more expensive for Venoms?"
"But won't that make people take even fewer of them?"
"Yes, thus increasing their scarcity value. Trust me, Dark Eldar players will thank us."


Incidentally, thank you, GW, for nerfing my Lhamaeans. I'd been worrying for some time that my Poison Tongue army had too many things going for it. Rolling Eyes

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27 2020, 17:21

I keep a 5 man squad with Shredders in all of my 9th lists so far. In my 8 games or so playing, they have been great. The range isn't the best and I worry about the Primaris guys that can buff you out of 12'' as well. But they do great work on infantry and with the good strength, some AP, and the reroll to wound, they are very reliable and put out quite a bit of damage.
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Vailex
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27 2020, 20:20

I predict that our poison weapons are going to change in our next codex which hopefully will be soon. Could end up being AP -1 and 3+ to wound or something useful like that.

Ive played a single game with scourges. They die too easy in a game where you really need to hold objectives. I used Haywire blasters and found them to be lacking.

I think they might be best used with shredders, deep striking into a table quarter for Engage On All Fronts and then clearing an objective of troops.

GW really needs to rethink the whole mercenaries lacking Kabal/Wych/Coven rules.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27 2020, 20:32

@Vailex wrote:
I predict that our poison weapons are going to change in our next codex which hopefully will be soon.  Could end up being AP -1 and 3+ to wound or something useful like that. 

Hehehe...
...hehehehehehe....

...

...Wait... You were serious?
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Vailex
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27 2020, 20:48

@dumpeal wrote:
@Vailex wrote:
I predict that our poison weapons are going to change in our next codex which hopefully will be soon.  Could end up being AP -1 and 3+ to wound or something useful like that. 

Hehehe...
...hehehehehehe....

...

...Wait... You were serious?

It would be the only reason why they would raise points on our kabalites and splinter cannons. LET ME HAVE MY DREAMS.....ITS ALL I HAVE LEFT. Smile
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27 2020, 21:02

The actual leaked rules for poison weapons is as follows:
Splinter rifle. 24" Rapid Fire. Poison. (wounds models with toughness 3 or less on a 4+, toughness 4 or more on a 6+). All poison shots are at -1 to hit if firing at half range or over.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27 2020, 22:24

I think the value of Scourges lies in supportive fire. You can't always position your Ravagers, Reapers, Taloi or Razorwings to finish off an enemy unit. Sometimes, committing yourself to a kill leaves you too exposed to be worth it.

With Scourges you need to minimize returned fire and their best defense is mobility. Place them in cover so they get a 2+ save with Hunt from the Shadows. Or place them where the other can only shoot at them with anti-tank weapons. If possible, try to exploit his positioning and make him go out of his way to kill them (you need to dictate the flow of the battle or you are playing on lost ground anyway).

And while their damage isn't enough to kill anything by themselves, it can be enough to kill/cripple transports, vehicles or monsters when it counts. Scourges are not a hammer, but a tool of opportunity. The extra range on Haywire Blasters helps with positioning, but usually I prefer Blasters because they work on a greater range of targets.

I still wish we had Skyweavers, though.

Edit: But if you only need the mobility, I'd go for Mandrakes. They have the same range as Shardcarbine Scourges but are arguably more flexible.
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27 2020, 23:34

@Skulnbonz wrote:
The actual leaked rules for poison weapons is as follows:
Splinter rifle. 24" Rapid Fire. Poison. (wounds models with toughness 3 or less on a 4+, toughness 4 or more on a 6+).  All poison shots are at -1 to hit if firing at half range or over.

What leak is this from? Also, thats somehow worse than the current poison weapons Sad Please tell me this is a "woosh" situation. Its already bad enough AdMech hands my ass to me, I dont need Tau to do it too.
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 01:17

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I think the value of Scourges lies in supportive fire. You can't always position your Ravagers, Reapers, Taloi or Razorwings to finish off an enemy unit. Sometimes, committing yourself to a kill leaves you too exposed to be worth it.

With Scourges you need to minimize returned fire and their best defense is mobility. Place them in cover so they get a 2+ save with Hunt from the Shadows. Or place them where the other can only shoot at them with anti-tank weapons. If possible, try to exploit his positioning and make him go out of his way to kill them (you need to dictate the flow of the battle or you are playing on lost ground anyway).

And while their damage isn't enough to kill anything by themselves, it can be enough to kill/cripple transports, vehicles or monsters when it counts. Scourges are not a hammer, but a tool of opportunity. The extra range on Haywire Blasters helps with positioning, but usually I prefer Blasters because they work on a greater range of targets.

I still wish we had Skyweavers, though.

Edit: But if you only need the mobility, I'd go for Mandrakes. They have the same range as Shardcarbine Scourges but are arguably more flexible.

I'd mostly agree with this, though I'm honestly dubious about how long you can realistically keep Scourges alive. I'd say use cover if you have the option, but I'd definitely see it as a second to drawing a bead on a key target.

Also, I don't think Scourges are a unit I'd want to use a Stratagem to protect. I could be wrong but I'm just doubtful it will be worth it in most cases.


@albions-angel wrote:
@Skulnbonz wrote:
The actual leaked rules for poison weapons is as follows:
Splinter rifle. 24" Rapid Fire. Poison. (wounds models with toughness 3 or less on a 4+, toughness 4 or more on a 6+).  All poison shots are at -1 to hit if firing at half range or over.

What leak is this from? Also, thats somehow worse than the current poison weapons Sad Please tell me this is a "woosh" situation. Its already bad enough AdMech hands my ass to me, I dont need Tau to do it too.

I think he was just making a joke.

(Though this is GW we're talking about, so it's possible that this is still accurate. Rolling Eyes )

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Braden Campbell
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 06:32

@Soulless Samurai wrote:


To be honest, I'm actually wondering about the viability of using Dark Lances in place of Blasters. They're currently the same cost, and the maximum -1 to hit means that there are quite a few targets where you can move and shoot them with no additional penalty.

Not sure it's better overall, just something to consider.

Dark lance scourges... being considered?

is the meta changing that much?
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 11:39

@Braden Campbell wrote:
@Soulless Samurai wrote:


To be honest, I'm actually wondering about the viability of using Dark Lances in place of Blasters. They're currently the same cost, and the maximum -1 to hit means that there are quite a few targets where you can move and shoot them with no additional penalty.

Not sure it's better overall, just something to consider.

Dark lance scourges... being considered?

is the meta changing that much?

I think, if you're planning on taking Scourges, basically every loadout is worth considering currently (with the possible exception of Splinter Cannons, which are still probably inferior to just taking more Scourges in the unit).

The key issue, unfortunately, is still whether it's worth running Scourges. As a special or heavy weapons platform they're feeling more and more under par thanks to their complete inability to receive any buffs beyond their dataslate in a pure DE army, and they don't have the innate abilities of Mandrakes or Incubi which compensate for that.

If you're able to tailor your list to an opponent then I could maybe see it, but Mandrakes fill a similar deep striking niche while being both more flexible offensively and more generally durable.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 9th ed Scourges   9th ed Scourges I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 12:18

The Blast Pistol is just something that we should probably consider throwing anywhere possible. When completing a list, it would be one of the first thing to get cut to free up points.

I noticed that the 4 blaster scourges cost the same as a 3 lance Ravager. Has anyone tried out a Lance Spam list yet? That seems to be the direction that GW is pushing us (along with Talos).
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