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 HQ Selection in 9th

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fisheyes
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 13:23

So now that we have seen the rules/points for the various armies, what do people think of our HQs?

The general theme of 9th point costing seems to want us to shift to bringing cheap/good HQs. Due to Raiding Force, we will generally be taking 3 minimum, and I dont see anything bad about that. However, I doubt that I will be taking more than those minimum 3.

Grots/Talos are great to hide behind also.

So will anyone be bringing multiple HQs per detatchment? Are people dropping Drazhar to free up points for the increase to Grots? Will Sslyth actually see a tabletop?

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Burnage
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 14:31

My general view on our HQs hasn't changed much: Drazhar is still a must-take, the Vexator Haemonculus remains excellent but slightly less useful thanks to the reduction in overwatch frequency, Urien is great for his auras, Archons are okay but I wouldn't take more than one if I can help it, Lelith and Succubi are situationally fine but I struggle to justify bringing them.

The wrinkle is the differences in loadouts. Blast Pistols are better picks on Archons and Succubi, particularly if you're running Test of Skill, while Venom Blades may as well not exist and Shardnets (arguably) aren't worth it anymore.

I also think the Ynnari characters are still worth consideration. They're all on the expensive side, but Yvraine and the Yncarne are the only way we can interact with some of the new psychic objectives. Raiding Force also lets you avoid some of the clashing units which may prevent you from taking them.

All things considered, I'm not planning on taking more than three HQs if I can help it: either Draz/Urien/Vex, or Draz/Yvraine/Urien.

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fisheyes
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 17:34

Ya, I am going the same way Burnage. We have some great units to hide behind (Grots/Talos), but we cant do the Herohammer that Marines can do.

Drazhar has not made it into any of my 9th lists, just not enough points. Going with a Raiding Force of Coven/Kabal/Cults, the only HQ that I would consider giving up would be the Succubus. And she is very cheap at 60 pts (with Blast Pistol).

Honestly, I dont see Drazhar being that great now that we cant reliably multi-charge. That second attach sequence wont get used often IMHO

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 17:59

I am still using a Writ Archon for some Dessie Ravagers. The CP farming helps as well because I tend to blow through rather quickly is using AoV.
I have Vex Haemonculus. I rate him higher than Urien. He is much better in CC, gets the Mask, and costs less points. I run Grotesques and the difference between Strength 5 and6 is very negligible imo. If I was running Talos, I would run Urien to make them Str. 8 so they could take on the heavy stuff. Plus, the Haemonculus can get the same WL Trait as Urien, so not a big deal.
My third HQ is Drazhar in any other detachment (right now it's Dark Techno/MoM). He is so money for his points and still just a blender. People are genuinely scared of him (as they should be!). He is a great addition to any force and a mainstay for me. I think I would still run him if I double up on another Kabal or PoF detachment because he is that good.
I don't rate the Succubus high, but can see merit with Blast Pistol to keep a cheap HQ if going Cult heavy.
The Ynnari characters are interesting and I may look at them more later on. But, remember if you take one of them, you cannot take the Abhor the Witch Secondary which, I believe is one that is almost an auto-take for me... provided they have psykers which all seem to have just for those "easy" points.
I like now that we can customize and maximize our hQs more with their best weaponry. Archons taking the Blast Pistols and Huskblades is a nice relief to the Venom Blade and Splinter Pistol Archon of 8th. I am still no the happiest guy with out HQs, but I do believe they got better in 9th and more valuable for us.
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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 18:00

*


Last edited by SCP Yeeman on Tue Jul 21 2020, 18:01; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Double Post)
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fisheyes
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 22 2020, 12:20

Blast Pistol Archons/Succubi seem like an easy pick.

Succubus with an Archite Glave and Blast Pistol is nothing to laugh at for 60 pts (65? dont have point costs on me ATM). Really helps round out the weakness of Grots (which you want to hide behind anyway).

How are people finding Drazhar in 9th with the new CC charging rules?
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 24 2020, 18:42

@fisheyes wrote:
Blast Pistol Archons/Succubi seem like an easy pick.

Succubus with an Archite Glave and Blast Pistol is nothing to laugh at for 60 pts (65? dont have point costs on me ATM).

60.

The trouble with Succubus is how their quality can vary wildly, based on the Cult you take. A Succubus from outside the stock 3 Cults is easy to not take. Generic WLTs and Relics are unimpressive. But, a Blood Glaive Succubus? Good for the points. However, taking the Stimm Addict WLT on a custom Cult is a good way eat that initial 6 Combat Drugs. +1 WS and +2 movement is pretty good, depending on your combination of Obsessions.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 24 2020, 19:59

I'm running:
- Kabal patrol with archon (BH for competitive, FS for friendly games)
- ToS wych patrol (minimum strength just to get 2 voidravens). This is a great spot for Drazhar because he, like a succubus, has no interaction with voidravens.
- DT patrol with haemonculus. This is the only detachment I would consider adding a 2nd HQ to, just to be able to split up my Talos units more freely.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 25 2020, 02:44

@sekac wrote:
I'm running:
- Kabal patrol with archon (BH for competitive, FS for friendly games)
- ToS wych patrol (minimum strength just to get 2 voidravens). This is a great spot for Drazhar because he, like a succubus, has no interaction with voidravens.
- DT patrol with haemonculus. This is the only detachment I would consider adding a 2nd HQ to, just to be able to split up my Talos units more freely.

Just curious, what are the second Obsessions on the Cult and Coven?
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 25 2020, 15:19

For the cult, I go slashing impact. It doesn't matter much, because I only have 5 wyches, but I might chip a few wounds off on a lucky charge.

I may end up scrapping the wych patrol entirely, and add in a PoF one depending on the meta. If voidravens prove too fragile, or the meta moves away from things they're good against, then I'll switch them out. There's nothing else in wych cults that seems interesting to me this edition.

For Coven, I go with Experimental Creations. Might switch to Hungry for Flesh if I don't find I'm getting great value out of str 7 Talos.
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fisheyes
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27 2020, 12:46

After my first "real" game of 9th, I agree that the Succubus isnt terribly great. I think I will be ditching the whole Wych Cult patrol in future lists, or at least putting Drazhar in there.

Haemoncului are actually doing good. I see 2 making it into future Coven centric lists to spread that +1T and to frustrate enemies with Nightmare Doll (4+++) and Helm of Spite.

Blast Pistols can be nice with BS2, but does not make up for the lack of Attacks. Heck, my Archon is meaner in CC than the Succubus...
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DingWop
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28 2020, 03:54

I'm not trying to crush tournaments, but the Yncarne has been playing well for me. I will try to include it as a 4th HQ. I also rolled out the sslyth for objective babysitting and setting up deep strike null zones. With the new rules I'm going to try and include the cheap units (sslyth or beastmaster/razerwing flock if I'm feeling cheeky) to rush three corners, sit on objectives, or screen areas from deep strike/reinforcements. Bonus points if they shoot off the sslyth thinking to deny a bunch of victory points only for the yncarne to drop and hold down the objective.
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p0mp3
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 05 2020, 18:12

If you are running Test of Skill, I would recommend Beserk Fugue with it, kit a succubus with the triptych whip and take the precision blows warlord trait.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 05 2020, 19:04

To be clear, Succubus are not good. If you can fit in Drazhar, do it. Nothing of value is really lost with a Succubus, besides perhaps a Relic holder, depending on your build.
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Darklord
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 06 2020, 10:18

@False Son wrote:
To be clear, Succubus are not good.
An Archite Vouge with -1 to hit and damage 1, is a joke for a melee HQ.

@False Son wrote:
 Nothing of value is really lost with a Succubus, besides perhaps a Relic holder, depending on your build.

Build 1 "Mortal Wounds": Drugs: Adrenalight (A+1); Relic : The Triptych Whip (A+3); Trait : Precision Blows (Mortal Wound on 6+ to bless)

Build 2 "Cult of Strife": Ossessions (A+1); Drugs: Adrenalight (A+1); Relic : The Triptych Whip (A+3); Trait : Blood Dancer (Hit scores +2 on 6+ to hit)

Build 3 "Red Grief": Drugs: Adrenalight (A+1); Relic : The Blood Glaive; Trait : Hyper-swift Reflexes (3++)

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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 06 2020, 11:15

@Darklord wrote:


Build 2 "Cult of Strife": Ossessions (A+1); Drugs: Adrenalight (A+1); Relic : The Triptych Whip (A+3); Trait : Blood Dancer (Hit scores +2 on 6+ to hit)


If I use a Succubus, it's always this build. It's a monster.

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harlokin
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 06 2020, 13:49

It's REALLY annoying that you cant have a Triptych Whip and a Blast pistol....frak that glaive

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 06 2020, 19:56

Ya, I think the Cult seems to be best as a CC hoard counter unit. Hoping to get in a game this weekend and try out the "Build 2" above.

Starting to enjoy running my Archon with the Blast Pistol and Djin Blade (Eternal Hatred) again. Always fun to have a bunch of shots bounce off the 2++ followed by him charging into something squishy.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 07 2020, 15:51

@Darklord wrote:
@False Son wrote:
To be clear, Succubus are not good.
An Archite Vouge with -1 to hit and damage 1, is a joke for a melee HQ.

It isn't that bad considering we have PfP.  It also costs 0 points.  The D1 is the biggest problem, because we can boost other things like Strength and Attacks through drugs and Cult options.  

Quote :

Build 1 "Mortal Wounds": Drugs: Adrenalight (A+1); Relic : The Triptych Whip (A+3); Trait : Precision Blows (Mortal Wound on 6+ to bless)

Mortal wounds are caused on 6s to wound.  You are better off with Hydra Gauntlets if the purpose is to cause Mortal Wounds.

Quote :
Build 2 "Cult of Strife": Ossessions (A+1); Drugs: Adrenalight (A+1); Relic : The Triptych Whip (A+3); Trait : Blood Dancer (Hit scores +2 on 6+ to hit)

7 wounds at -2AP on turn 3 or higher.  Not bad.  But, worth a Relic, Warlord Trait and Adrenalight?

Quote :
Build 3 "Red Grief": Drugs: Adrenalight (A+1); Relic : The Blood Glaive; Trait : Hyper-swift Reflexes (3++)

I'd go Stimm Addict, Hypex and Adrenalight.  It plays into the Advance and charge power of Red Greif.

Besides, all these builds prove my point about being Relic holders. If you need a Relic to be good, you aren't good.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 07 2020, 18:58

@False Son wrote:


Besides, all these builds prove my point about being Relic holders.  If you need a Relic to be good, you aren't good.

I agree. It's why any wych detachment I take is ideally lead by drazhar. Anything a succubus can do, he can do better. The cost disparity is unfortunately as big as it gets in our HQs, so you you're paying for basically two Succubi. But since neither of them synergize with aircraft (ToS planes being the only wych units I'm particularly interested in), they have to stand on their own.

Drazhar is worth his points but is CP light. Succubi are cheap, but only worth their points if you spend CPs.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 07 2020, 20:06

I tend to cut a middle path of trying to be a cheapo Succubus with AG and Blast Pistol, and has Helm of Spite. I like Stimm Addict for eating up 2 of the 6 Combat Drug spots (+1WS, +2M), but, i can easily just settle on no Warlord Trait.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 07 2020, 20:41

@sekac wrote:
@False Son wrote:


Besides, all these builds prove my point about being Relic holders.  If you need a Relic to be good, you aren't good.

I agree. It's why any wych detachment I take is ideally lead by drazhar. Anything a succubus can do, he can do better. The cost disparity is unfortunately as big as it gets in our HQs, so you you're paying for basically two Succubi. But since neither of them synergize with aircraft (ToS planes being the only wych units I'm particularly interested in), they have to stand on their own.

Drazhar is worth his points but is CP light. Succubi are cheap, but only worth their points if you spend CPs.

All my HQ are cheap and worthless. The most I invest in them is a blast pistol. They are a tax, and I keep them the cheapest I can.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 07 2020, 22:16

Archons are pretty good, especially Legends versions with Blasters. Succubus are just clearly 3rd tier. Their aura only effects 1s in melee, whereas the Archon is 1s in general. The Succubus WLTs are terrible, with the exception of Blood Dancer. Tryptic Whip is a joke compared to Relic weapons of other factions, and Blood Glaive is restricted by Cult.

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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 08 2020, 07:35

Wow, thanks for all the input/info. I haven't gotten to play a game yet but really leaning towards my kabal army with Draz. We will be starting a crusade, soon I hope. Any 50 PL suggestions would be appreciated.

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PostSubject: Re: HQ Selection in 9th   HQ Selection in 9th I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 08 2020, 09:04

I actually hope that the Succubus statline gets looked at with the release of Lelith's model, I'd even take a ~10 point increase on her for +1 base attack and a substantially better Archite Glaive.
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