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SERAFF
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 08 2020, 10:29

Correct me if I am wrong, but do the new rules mean, that if I am shooting a 6 man unit with my necrotoxin missiles, that unit gets 9 shots? Or is it 3+2d3 shots? Or how does it work?

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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 08 2020, 11:21

It would be 9 hits. Each time you roll dice for hits against units of particular sizes with blast weapons, each dice can only a roll the relative minimum. It's a handy buff for some of our missiles

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 08 2020, 14:42

There's some argument about this. My reading of the Blast rule is that when targeting units of 5-10 it's actually 3 hits minimum for each weapon overall, not each individual die making up the damage profile.

Quote :
If a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and 10 models, it always makes a minimum of 3 attacks.

So if, when determining how many attacks are made with that weapon, the dice rolled results in less than 3 attacks being made, make 3 attacks instead

So a weapon that makes 3D3 shots doesn't benefit from being Blast unless it's aiming at a unit size of 11 or more.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 08 2020, 17:30

@Burnage wrote:

So a weapon that makes 3D3 shots doesn't benefit from being Blast unless it's aiming at a unit size of 11 or more.
Disagree.
You pick up each dice, in this case, 3 of them.
you roll each dice.
If the result of each dice is less than 3, make it 3.
therefore, no need to even roll the dice. you score 9 shots.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 08 2020, 17:49

@Skulnbonz wrote:
If the result of each dice is less than 3, make it 3.

The Blast rule doesn't state that you change each die to 3, just "the dice". That could refer to each individual die, but my view is that it refers to the total rolled per weapon profile.

I'm sincerely hoping that this gets FAQed early on because there really doesn't seem to be much consensus about it.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 08 2020, 22:24

@Burnage wrote:
@Skulnbonz wrote:
If the result of each dice is less than 3, make it 3.

The Blast rule doesn't state that you change each die to 3, just "the dice". That could refer to each individual die, but my view is that it refers to the total rolled per weapon profile.

I'm sincerely hoping that this gets FAQed early on because there really doesn't seem to be much consensus about it.

One thing to consider is GW has never used the singular form "die". They have always used the modern English "dice" to be both singular and plural.

Unfortunately, divining their intention is next to impossible. We have no choice but to guess what they mean because they've refused for decades to be clear on this issue.
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 09 2020, 15:51

For blast weapons against hordes. The rules don't say that you get to hit a minimum of 3 or 6 hits per d6 shots for a weapon. The rule says that it is a min or 3 or 6 hits for the weapon. So say a battle cannon is shooting at a unit of 20orks. It rolls d6 shots with a minimum of 6hits. Do it gets it's max amount of shots.
A weapon that fires 2d6 blast shots does not do 6x2=12 hits. It rolls 2d6 for shots amd if you roll under 6 on 2d6 you still get 6 hits. If you roll day am 8 on the 2d6 then you do 8hits like normal.

Sorry at work so don't have time to edit this with quotes etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 09 2020, 16:39

My reading was that the WEAPON got 3 shots minimum, not each D6.

Was listening to a podcast with Reece, and he mentioned that it would be minimum 3 per D6.

Regardless, the RWJF will be good in 9th. Points will tell if its better than the Bomber.
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 09 2020, 18:20

Table Top Tactics, in there 9th ed battle report made a point to state that it is per weapon not per die on blast weapons. What GW should have done is use a 2d3 weapon in their example and all would be clear, but because they use the "proper english" dice as plural and singular the example of 1d6 weapon leads to confusion. Even though the rule only mentions "Weapon" not dice.

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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 09 2020, 20:47

Here is the quote from the core rules (as it is always better to start with the words used)

If a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and 10 models, it
always makes a minimum of 3 attacks. So if, when determining how
many attacks are made with that weapon, the dice rolled results in
less than 3 attacks being made, make 3 attacks instead. For example,
if a Grenade D6 weapon with the Blast rule targets a unit that has 6
or more models, and you roll a 2 to determine how many attacks are
made, that roll is counted as being a 3 and that weapon makes three
attacks against that unit.

Note it does not  say the the minimum dice or die roll is minimum 3.  

It very clearly says is that the weapon "always makes a minimum of 3 attacks".    I actually don't think that it is worded unclearly at all. Agree that using 2d6 or 3d3 would have been a better example to use.

So it is 3 total for the weapon.
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 09 2020, 21:29

I completely agree with you that I find it perfectly clear. That said from a Technical Writing point of view the example is rubbish. Even though it might not be proper English to use "die" instead of "dice" in the example, the use of improper English actually would have made the meaning clear with less ambiguity. That is proper technical writing.

That being said, The best way Technically is to use an extreme example like a Thunderfire Cannon that has many dice.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 09 2020, 22:08

Yep, 3 for WEAPON.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 10 2020, 00:34

@Silverglade wrote:
Here is the quote from the core rules (as it is always better to start with the words used)

If a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and 10 models, it
always makes a minimum of 3 attacks. So if, when determining how
many attacks are made with that weapon, the dice rolled results in
less than 3 attacks being made, make 3 attacks instead. For example,
if a Grenade D6 weapon with the Blast rule targets a unit that has 6
or more models, and you roll a 2 to determine how many attacks are
made, that roll is counted as being a 3 and that weapon makes three
attacks against that unit.

Note it does not  say the the minimum dice or die roll is minimum 3.  

It very clearly says is that the weapon "always makes a minimum of 3 attacks".    I actually don't think that it is worded unclearly at all.

I have to disagree.

The sentence "So if, when determining how many attacks are made with that weapon, the dice rolled results in less than 3..."

The "s" added to the end of result indicates they are referring to a single die when writing this.

If they were referring to multiple dice, the correctly conjugated verb would be "...the dice result in less than 3..."

While the correct RAW interpretation is as you say, it seems quite clear to me that they straight up forgot there are weapons that roll more than 1D6 for their attacks. They write the sentence as if they're talking about only one die and give a 1 die example.

I have no idea how they intend it to work with multiple dice attacks, because I don't think they have any idea either.
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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 10 2020, 16:44

Well we can certainly agree that they likely flat out forgot to consider something like a multiple d3 attacks when they were wording it. LOL.

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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 10 2020, 20:35

LOL, is the correct interpretation.
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 16 2020, 00:58

I believe some of the playtesters have said that it is 3 per die on units of 6 to 10.

And GW doesn't make a distinction between dice and die. They just use the word dice singular or plural

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Last edited by colinsherlow on Thu Jul 16 2020, 01:02; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 16 2020, 01:00

@colinsherlow wrote:
I believe some of the playtesters have said that it is 3 per die on units of 6 to 10.

This is what I heard as well.

I will be playing it this way until FAQ'd.

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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 16 2020, 01:07

@hero

You plan on doing any write ups after some play testing? I was going to PM you, but I am being a dummy and can't figure it out. Haha

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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 16 2020, 06:24

@colinsherlow wrote:
@hero

You plan on doing any write ups after some play testing? I was going to PM you, but I am being a dummy and can't figure it out. Haha

Yup, gonna have my first game this weekend. Should be fun!

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PartridgeKing
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 16 2020, 09:37

I will admit that until reading this post I had been rather firm in my belief of how this rule worked, now I can certainly see the argument for the other way more clearly, though I do still think the intention is that the number of dice rolled is irrelevant to the minimum attacks. Unit of 6+ suffer a minimum of 3 attacks, units of 11+ suffer the maximum number of attacks.... and actually rechecking the wording it seems even clearer. In the Core Rules they've released it states:
"1. If a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and won models it always makes a minimum of 3 attacks.." before going on to talk about dice rolled.

Additionally in the bullet points it again says:
"Minimum three attacks against units with 6+ models. Always make maximum number of attacks against units of 11+ models." and as the bullet points are the key working point you need to be able to quickly reference that would seem pretty definitive to me. There's no mention of dice because the rule is actually independent of the number of dice rolled - they may yet FAQ it because their wording doesn't match their actual intention, but I don't think we can presume their intention when the wording is pretty definitive.
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 16 2020, 14:10

They released the FAQ, did they seriously not answer this question?

I am in the "3 shots per WEAPON" camp, but there is evidence for both cases. Seems like a pretty important thing to clarify...
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 16 2020, 14:18

@PartridgeKing wrote:
I will admit that until reading this post I had been rather firm in my belief of how this rule worked, now I can certainly see the argument for the other way more clearly, though I do still think the intention is that the number of dice rolled is irrelevant to the minimum attacks. Unit of 6+ suffer a minimum of 3 attacks, units of 11+ suffer the maximum number of attacks.... and actually rechecking the wording it seems even clearer. In the Core Rules they've released it states:
"1. If a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and won models it always makes a minimum of 3 attacks.." before going on to talk about dice rolled.

Additionally in the bullet points it again says:
"Minimum three attacks against units with 6+ models. Always make maximum number of attacks against units of 11+ models." and as the bullet points are the key working point you need to be able to quickly reference that would seem pretty definitive to me. There's no mention of dice because the rule is actually independent of the number of dice rolled - they may yet FAQ it because their wording doesn't match their actual intention, but I don't think we can presume their intention when the wording is pretty definitive.

Except that there is mention of dice in both sections, you just chose not to include those sentences. Others have quoted the relevant sections above.

You not mentioning dice is not the same as "there is no mention of dice". Saying so is not just misleading, it is incorrect.

We can't presume to know their intentions, but no, the wording is not definitive if you read the whole section, including where it mentions dice.
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 16 2020, 17:46

You're right I excluded the mention of dice from the first section, my apologies I wasn't doing so to try and occlude the interpretation it merely seemed redundant to repeat what so many had said before. So apologies if it seemed as though I was trying to prove myself right by ignoring part of the information, totally unintentional  Very Happy
Personally however I don't think the second sentence, the one that mentions dice, is sufficiently worded to change the meaning of the first sentence, which doesn't, but that part is certainly open to debate.

The bit that I don't think is open to debate is the bullet points section where there is no mention of dice at all, and there is just the summarised rule which gives you everything you need to know to use the rule. Though to be completely fair the bullet points are as follows:


  • "Blast Weapons: Minimum three attacks against units with 6+ models. Always make maximum number of attacks against units with 11+ models.

  • Can never be used to attack units within the firing unit’s Engagement Range."


Personally I think those two bullets alone answer the debate, as they act the same way as all the other bullet pointed summaries on the same page.
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 06 2020, 09:52

It's 3attacks minimum per weapon:

- "The number of attacks that a model makes with a ranged weapon is equal to the number written on that weapons profile after its type." (Pg. 217). So 2A for a Heavy 2 or the result of 2D3 for Assault 2D3
- "If a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and 10 models, it always makes a minimum of 3 attacks. So if, when determining how many attacks are made with that weapon, the dice rolled results in less than 3 attacks being made, make 3 attacks instead. " (pg. 219). So a Blast Heavy 2 weapon (if such a thing existed) will make a minimum of 3A (or max(3, 2)), a Blast Assault 2D3 will make a max(3, 2D3) attacks

Blast introduce a minimum value for the number of attacks a weapon make. It does not change how the original number of attacks is computed
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PostSubject: Re: Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter   Blasts and Razorwing Jetfighter I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 06 2020, 17:19

@Garion wrote:
It's 3attacks minimum per weapon:

- "The  number  of  attacks  that  a  model  makes  with  a  ranged  weapon  is  equal  to  the  number  written  on  that  weapons  profile  after  its  type." (Pg. 217). So 2A for a Heavy 2 or the result of 2D3 for Assault 2D3
- "If  a  Blast  weapon  targets  a  unit  that  has  between  6  and  10  models,  it  always  makes  a  minimum  of  3  attacks.  So  if,  when  determining  how  many  attacks  are  made  with  that  weapon,  the  dice  rolled  results  in  less  than  3  attacks  being  made,  make  3  attacks  instead. " (pg. 219). So a Blast Heavy 2 weapon (if such a thing existed) will make a minimum of 3A (or max(3, 2)), a Blast Assault 2D3 will make a max(3, 2D3) attacks

Blast introduce a minimum value for the number of attacks a weapon make. It does not change how the original number of attacks is computed

Again, rules as written, you are correct. However, it seems clear to me from the way it's written that they didn't think multiple dice when writing the rule. Pending an FAQ, it's impossible to know what their intention was. They don't know what their intention was and so neither do we.
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