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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 04 2020, 19:41

After today's updates I think our Raiding Force rule could be awesome if they don't change it and if they do they could make it special.  

If we think your first Patrol will cost 1 cp and every other patrol costs 2 cp.  we get 1 CP back from warlord detachment. so 3 patrols cost 4 cp we get 4 back from Raiding.  6 patrols costs us 10 CP we get 8 back.  this could make us the most versatile army for force construction.


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AlCorps
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 04 2020, 21:44

@Dalamar wrote:
After today's updates I think our Raiding Force rule could be awesome if they don't change it and if they do they could make it special.  

If we think your first Patrol will cost 1 cp and every other patrol costs 2 cp.  we get 1 CP back from warlord detachment. so 3 patrols cost 4 cp we get 5 back from Raiding force net gain 1.  6 patrols costs us 10 CP we get 8 back.  this could make us the most versatile army for force construction.

Raiding force is 4CP for 3 patrols, so with the above assumptions on detachment cost, we don't get anything. But I see your point, and it might be the way we have to go if detachments cost too much.

I was thinking about paying extra CP for each detachment we need. Consider that a competitive list will want some BH kabal ravagers, some covens wracks and talos/grots, and maybe some flyers or venoms or wych units. That's 3 detachments just to build the well rounded force, which we are in a way encouraged to do to use the Alliance of Agony warlord strat.
So this either needs an overhaul to the way the sub-factions or detachment bonuses work so we don't need so many detachments, or go the 3-Patrol route to get the different detachment bonuses without a huge CP cost.

Although this is all speculation, and could be irrelevant by this time tomorrow...
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 04 2020, 22:51

@AlCorps wrote:

Raiding force is 4CP for 3 patrols, so with the above assumptions on detachment cost, we don't get anything. But I see your point, and it might be the way we have to go if detachments cost too much.

I was thinking about paying extra CP for each detachment we need. Consider that a competitive list will want some BH kabal ravagers, some covens wracks and talos/grots, and maybe some flyers or venoms or wych units. That's 3 detachments just to build the well rounded force, which we are in a way encouraged to do to use the Alliance of Agony warlord strat.
So this either needs an overhaul to the way the sub-factions or detachment bonuses work so we don't need so many detachments, or go the 3-Patrol route to get the different detachment bonuses without a huge CP cost.

Although this is all speculation, and could be irrelevant by this time tomorrow...

Oops, thank you we come out neutral, I have corrected my above post.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 04 2020, 23:07

Yeah, Paying for each detachment could hurt us, here is hoping Raiding Force is a way around that.

RIP my Coven Raider spam army, it is now official dead. Transports can only be bought with Infantry.

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 05 2020, 06:42

@amishprn86 wrote:
Yeah, Paying for each detachment could hurt us, here is hoping Raiding Force is a way around that.

RIP my Coven Raider spam army, it is now official dead. Transports can only be bought with Infantry.

LUL, not gonna lie, I thought about your stupid Coven Raider spam list the second I read the article. lol!

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yellabelly
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 05 2020, 10:27

As the Raiding Party rule stands, it's something of a fix. But if detachments are still capped at a maximum of 3 it still restricts us heavily in list building, because a 3 patrol raiding party is your limit. Your kabal or cult or coven patrol can only take 2 heavy support, 2 fast attack, or 1 flyer. Presumably elites will go up a little since they went up to 6 in a battalion. But that means you need 2 cult patrols to run a couple of test of skill flyers, or 2 kabal patrols to run 3 ravagers, etc etc.

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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 05 2020, 12:12

@yellabelly wrote:
As the Raiding Party rule stands, it's something of a fix. But if detachments are still capped at a maximum of 3 it still restricts us heavily in list building, because a 3 patrol raiding party is your limit. Your kabal or cult or coven patrol can only take 2 heavy support, 2 fast attack, or 1 flyer. Presumably elites will go up a little since they went up to 6 in a battalion. But that means you need 2 cult patrols to run a couple of test of skill flyers, or 2 kabal patrols to run 3 ravagers, etc etc.

Minor point but Patrols can take two Flyers each. It'll shake up our list building a bit but that sounds like it's going to be true for most armies, and I don't see this as being hugely restrictive for us.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 05 2020, 12:56

@yellabelly wrote:
As the Raiding Party rule stands, it's something of a fix. But if detachments are still capped at a maximum of 3 it still restricts us heavily in list building, because a 3 patrol raiding party is your limit. Your kabal or cult or coven patrol can only take 2 heavy support, 2 fast attack, or 1 flyer. Presumably elites will go up a little since they went up to 6 in a battalion. But that means you need 2 cult patrols to run a couple of test of skill flyers, or 2 kabal patrols to run 3 ravagers, etc etc.

I watch the video twice and read the article, i didn't see anywhere they said 3 detachments max. Can you confirm where? Note: I could have over looked it, nothing against you, just like to confirm things.

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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 05 2020, 13:10

It's not confirmed Amish! I was only saying "if" as there's been no confirmation of max 3 detachments but they haven't said it's being lifted either 👍

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 05 2020, 13:26

@Dalamar wrote:
@Silverglade wrote:
@Dalamar wrote:
...
....

Signal's from the Frontline said 15-20% increase across the board, so a 1600-1700pts of army now should be 2000pts in 9th.

We don't have to if you don't want to.

How reliable is this source really? In general, I think some points increases would be healthy for the game. Especially when you have models that cost 4pts there is little wiggle room for further point adjustments. When it comes to troops, most of our points sink into transports anyway.

On another note, I'm positively optimistic.

@Dalamar wrote:
However, it’s worth noting that the Command points spent on a ‘core’ Detachment (Patrol, Battalion or Brigade) are refunded if it also includes your Warlord, so your first Detachment is usually free

If that's the intention, I can also see that they further flesh out the "Alliance of Agony" stratagem or just turn it into an army rule. And assuming that GW doesn't change much about obsessions the Prophets of Flesh could be a huge winner.

I think we'll definitely lose some CP advantage since fulling two batallions doesn't seem so juicy anymore, but so be it. I think we'll win on other fronts such as terrain.
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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 05 2020, 14:51

looking at the recent posts, are we thinking you still get CP for detachments in addition to the ones that you'll now start with?  (looking at Dalamar and AI post where we are saying we get 4CP for raiding party).

I don't think that's the case at all.  I think you would start with 12 in a 2000 point game.   So if you take 3 patrols, it costs you 2 CP (since the warlord one is free).  

Or am I missing something in what they've said?  (I perhaps I misunderstood the above posts). I am very confused. LOL
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 05 2020, 14:59

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

How reliable is this source really?

Very, they have been play-testing it. That being said, they were painting with a very broad brush to not violate their NDA's.
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 05 2020, 15:18

@Silverglade wrote:
looking at the recent posts, are we thinking you still get CP for detachments in addition to the ones that you'll now start with?  (looking at Dalamar and AI post where we are saying we get 4CP for raiding party).

I don't think that's the case at all.  I think you would start with 12 in a 2000 point game.   So if you take 3 patrols, it costs you 2 CP (since the warlord one is free).  

Or am I missing something in what they've said?  (I perhaps I misunderstood the above posts).  I am very confused.  LOL

All detachments will cost points, even the one with your WL, but if its a core detachment then you are refunded those points back (this might matter or list building or Crusade purpose otherwise its just 1 free detachment).

We only know that a Battalion is 3CP so far. We don't know if it will cost extra for non same codex (soup) detachments, or if all detachments costs the same.

They did make sure to say "even if its a subfaction detachment it still costs CP to take". This i am assuming is so people know that take 1 book with 3 detachments, you still pay for each detachment even if they are from the same subfactions/factions. This is when chat got "Ok what about DE?" and they never answered.

The did say that "Armies with special detachments will stay in the game like Knights and DE" but they didn't say if we get bonuses, only that they are not removing them from the game.

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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 05 2020, 15:25

@Silverglade wrote:
looking at the recent posts, are we thinking you still get CP for detachments in addition to the ones that you'll now start with?  (looking at Dalamar and AI post where we are saying we get 4CP for raiding party).

I don't think that's the case at all.  I think you would start with 12 in a 2000 point game.   So if you take 3 patrols, it costs you 2 CP (since the warlord one is free).  

Or am I missing something in what they've said?  (I perhaps I misunderstood the above posts).  I am very confused.  LOL

I will help clarify;

  • we do not get CP from Detachments in 9th we pay CP for them.
    We are guessing that a Patrol Detachment will cost 1 CP because a Battalion will cost 3.

  • In the Daily Twitch stream they mentioned that to discourage people from taking the same detachment more than once there would be a CP penalty for each duplicate.  So I guessed that the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ect... would cost 2 CP each.

  • Raiding Force is one of our army wide rules that was forgotten because the max detachment rules in matched play and when they raised the CP gained from detachments. It reads:
    "If your Battle-forged army includes at least 3
    DRUKHARI Patrol Detachments, you receive
    +4 Command Points. If your army includes 6
    or more DRUKHARI Patrol Detachments, you
    receive +8 Command Points instead."


I hope that helps clear it up for you.
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 05 2020, 15:34

@yellabelly wrote:
It's not confirmed Amish! I was only saying "if" as there's been no confirmation of max 3 detachments but they haven't said it's being lifted either 👍

I honestly believe that they will remove limitation on detachment amount because you now have to pay for them.  you want 5 detachments have at it it could cost you all your starting CP before Strats.

Before, there was no cost to detachments and only benefits, so people would min max the "eff" out of it.


Never mind 3 detachment limit is in at Strike Force level.
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 05 2020, 20:04

K. Thanks all. I hadn't been watching the twitch. I get it now.
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 05 2020, 22:56

To be fair with the coven raider spam, they did say INFANTRY. So yeah, it's definitely taken a kick to the nuts, but we can still take a transport per HQ and troops, plus whatever other keyword units we might take.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 05 2020, 23:23

@Sarcron wrote:
To be fair with the coven raider spam, they did say INFANTRY. So yeah, it's definitely taken a kick to the nuts, but we can still take a transport per HQ and troops, plus whatever other keyword units we might take.

Yeah, i've been trying to put everything into a battalion, i just am down 1 Haemonculus but still able to get 9 Raiders in. So it gives me enough points buffer for updated points and i think i'm happy with that till i know more.

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Wracks x5
Wracks x5
Wracks x5
Wracks x5
Wracks x5
Talos x3
Talos x3
Raider x9

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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 08 2020, 00:17

@amishprn86 wrote:

Haemonculus
Haemonculus
Wracks x5
Wracks x5
Wracks x5
Wracks x5
Wracks x5
Wracks x5

How many liquifier guns can you squeeze in with this? Those things are fantastic on Dark Technomancers.

I was experimenting with Raiders with 10 Wracks using Aethersails and Fire and Fade to get them 29" up the board and then melt characters. It's a tonne of fun.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 08 2020, 02:07

@hydranixx wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:

Haemonculus
Haemonculus
Wracks x5
Wracks x5
Wracks x5
Wracks x5
Wracks x5
Wracks x5

How many liquifier guns can you squeeze in with this? Those things are fantastic on Dark Technomancers.

I was experimenting with Raiders with 10 Wracks using Aethersails and Fire and Fade to get them 29" up the board and then melt characters. It's a tonne of fun.

All lol. I'm actually down 180pts, and i was at 1970 before. B.c we are playing down in 9th around 100pts is from what GW said (they are still vague so 80-120pts i'd say) I'd say 80pts left over for sure. Well with my full list.

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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 08 2020, 20:33

We'll see when the points are revealed, but the impression I've had is that points are going up 10-20% across the board - so a 2000 point army in 9th will be more like 1600-1800 points now.

That's obviously not a certainty but something to bear in mind if you're toying around with preparatory list-building.
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 09 2020, 16:07

Up to the minute reveals.

No -1 to hit for heavy weapons on vehicles only infantry. The Reaper is better, Vypers are usable now, Hornets awesome, Falcon's cool.

Blast weapons cannot fire into melee.

When a vehicle declares its shots it can target units is combat with it and down range, but if it does not clear the units in combat with it before the down range shot that shot is wasted.
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 09 2020, 16:13

@Dalamar wrote:
No -1 to hit for heavy weapons on vehicles only infantry.

I mean, bolly for everyone else. However, as someone who plays Dark Eldar, it seems like our army's benefits are just being freely handed out to everyone else. Are our vehicles going to get any other benefit instead?

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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 09 2020, 17:03

Soup gets nerfed. Mono-Drukhari are caught in the cross fire because of our army composition.
We're a high mobility army. Boards get smaller making it easier for everyone else to cover ground.
Our tanks can fall back and shoot. Everyone else gets to shoot whilst in combat.
Our vehicles can move and shoot without penalty. Now all vehicles can ignore the penalty.

So they are all kinda small changes, but it adds up. The benefits for playing a Drukhari army are being eroded, and so far we haven't been thrown a bone where we actually benefit from rules changes at all.
I'm well aware it's early days, there is more info to come, and there may well be things which mitigate and compensate for the above. Raiding Party for example. I'm not trying to be salty or rip everything apart or claim the sky is falling. I'm just assessing the info we have as of this minute, and would be interested to discuss what we know about the new ruleset.

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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 09 2020, 17:45

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@Dalamar wrote:
No -1 to hit for heavy weapons on vehicles only infantry.

I mean, bolly for everyone else. However, as someone who plays Dark Eldar, it seems like our army's benefits are just being freely handed out to everyone else. Are our vehicles going to get any other benefit instead?

This is EXACTLY how I felt. GW is so bad, really. They don't seem to understand that the more you streamline and standarize, the more you make certain armies feel less unique, flavorful and powerful. It's a god damn joke.

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