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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 20 2020, 18:58

I can't help but feel bad for Nids. The nature of their leadership makes them vulnerable to Bring it Down, Abhor the Witch and Cut off the Head.

The increase in cost for Kabalites also seems more justified now. The ability to Webway Portal into the enemy's deployment zone, or into cover and shoot them for 6 points per model would be insanely powerful. Not that i forgive GW for their anti-Kabal leanings. It also helps to understand the high cost of Wracks. Just surviving in the right place has major consequences.

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AzraeI
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 00:03

@False Son wrote:
I can't help but feel bad for Nids.  The nature of their leadership makes them vulnerable to Bring it Down, Abhor the Witch and Cut off the Head.

I don't, there is more whine it the Tyranid subreddit then in the entirety of france
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 02:32

@False Son wrote:
I can't help but feel bad for Nids.  The nature of their leadership makes them vulnerable to Bring it Down, Abhor the Witch and Cut off the Head.

The increase in cost for Kabalites also seems more justified now.  The ability to Webway Portal into the enemy's deployment zone, or into cover and shoot them for 6 points per model would be insanely powerful.  Not that i forgive GW for their anti-Kabal leanings.  It also helps to understand the high cost of Wracks.  Just surviving in the right place has major consequences.


Nids are in a great spot. I played them all through 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th. I JUST sold my 10k points nids army.  Nids are in a good spot to win games in 9th, the people complaining have no idea how to play 9th, or what the meta is evolving into do to changes of missions.

Yes some units are bad now like Genestealers, but really nids got hit the least out of a lot of armies, terrain helps them more than any other army (besides GSC), and the missions also helps them.

1) Warriors are now OP, they are 3+ that ignores -1 and -2ap, has a FnP of 5+, -1 to be hit, and ignore 1D.
2) Gants being only 5pts for infantry that all they do is sit on points, taking 6 units of them is nothing for nids.
3) They can take 30pt Character infantry units to sit and gain secondaries
4) HQ's remain the same or only went up 5-10pts, Neruothropes didn't get touched, SWarmy went up 20 (the most out of all) and is still 100% amazing (Better than the Yncarne for the same points, Broodlords are still amazing for the +10pts
5) Hiveguard only went up a little, making 6 auto included still AND much better in 9th than in 8th b.c of new terrain rules
6) Biovore, Carnifex's are still go to heavy slots for Brigades and still are cheap
7) Malanthropes did go up, bu tonly 15pts, but b.c of cover/terrain rules you can not take Venomthropes instead for cheaper with a larger -1 to but Aura saving you enough points for a gant unit
8 ) B.c you are not taking Genestealers and instead taking Warriors (which are the same damage just splint 1/2 the damage with 18" range shooting) they are cheaper by 100pts and tougher, saving those points means you actually don't loose out on as much as other armies.
9) Spores are still cheap and great for Brigades now, but more importantnly how charging works you can DS them in front of you gants on objectives making it Impossible to charge them without shooting the Spores, and with the cheap Lictor in the middle of the gants, that objective will not be taken in 1 turn, which wins games.
10) Flyrants only went up 10pts

As a person that play nids for over 10yrs and just sold them that also has DE for over 10yrs, i WISH i didn't sell them, as i am more excited for them in 9th than DE.

Old nids meta won't work, but its a new edition so why would it? Shooting nids could still work, but you want to take and hold objectives. The only bad thing is, do you go Brigade or 2 Battalion? Nids needs their CP, they are starved for it, so the new CP system is the only nerf to them, they are coming from starting out with 18 and having their shooting units with shooting traits, to 12 and melee/shooting together. Personally i would just take 2 detachments and not go 100% turn 1 and 2 using 14+ CP.

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 13:07

Anyone else looking at the "While We Stand, We Fight" secondary?

Unfortunately it applies to the most costly Model, not Unit. But I see a possible build around a double/triple patrol where we use DT Raiders as our anti tank, and create 3 units of Taloi each with 1 Talos that is our "Most Expensive Model". It would be almost impossible to get through all that T7 4++ (the talos would be in the usual PoF detatchment, DT raiders in another).

Other than the "be places to score points" secondaries, is anything else jumping out at people?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 13:22

IDK, people tend to hate Talos and wants to kill them lol

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Hanga
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 13:37

@amishprn86 wrote:
IDK, people tend to hate Talos and wants to kill them lol

I tend to think of it in a diffirent way. Say the enemy really wants to kill your squad of three talos. That means that some serious firepower has to be invested into them. This is firepower that is not into your infantry holding objectives, Reapers, Ravagers, Grotesques etc. Sure, they can use 2xRiptides to bring them down, but that means your other units can get into position to strike their other objectives.
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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 13:51

@Hanga wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
IDK, people tend to hate Talos and wants to kill them lol

I tend to think of it in a diffirent way. Say the enemy really wants to kill your squad of three talos. That means that some serious firepower has to be invested into them. This is firepower that is not into your infantry holding objectives, Reapers, Ravagers, Grotesques etc. Sure, they can use 2xRiptides to bring them down, but that means your other units can get into position to strike their other objectives.

I dont know man even 2 riptides need a ton of amazing rolls and a ton abysmal ones from your side to down 3 talos backed up with T7...
Tbh i cannot remember many times i lost 3 whole PoF Talos in a single shooting phase...
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 13:52

But for that secondary if they kill them, that means you get 0 points, who cares if they wasted fire power if you lose your points. Let them shoot it and put your VP somewhere else.

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 14:13

It would all depend on how many Talos you field. They are worth 2 VPs each if the opponent selects Bring It Down. They likely should take Bring It Down because Talos are going to be something you want to kill anyway just to stay alive.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 16:15

I'm talking about if you take "While We Stand, We Fight" you pick 3 highest cost models in your army, they have to stay alive all game. If you pick Talos and your opponent knows this, and just b.c they are Talos, they are going to go and kill them.

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 16:56

Right, my point is that even without knowing what Secondaries you are taking, i know you have so many Talos. I would want to kill those Talos, anyway, because they are so threatening. I would take Bring It Down to reward myself.

Though, i do wonder if in a scenario where you had 9 Taloi, you could pick 1 Talos in each unit to be your survivors.
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Doctor1999
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 17:37

If you wanted to, you could pay 2CP to put the Talos in Strategic Reserve and only bring them out super late into the game. Issue with this, is as you said, you basically can't use Ravagers, Reapers any of our Fliers. Just means you'll have to build your list around it - maybe you use Reavers with ToS as your anti-tank for example.

Time will tell if 315-345 Points off the board is worth 15VP.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 17:38

I am talking about taking 2-3 units of 2-3 talos. Then having 1 talos in each squad marked as the "most expensive".

The enemy would need to chew through 2 talos before they get to 1 of the While We Stand talos. If we had 3 units of 3, it would be very difficult for the enemy to achieve their own secondaries while stopping us from scoring at least 10 pts on this one.

But of course, this would require a very specific build. RWJF/Voidraven and Ravagers/Reapers are all more costly than Talos, so you would not be able to bring them in your list (hence the DT Raiders).

Just thinking out loud, this may not be the best idea afterall.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 17:43

I don't think its worth it at all, they already want to kill all your Talos, why give them more reasons too, and why not take one of our other best units. IMO our best 2 units right now are Talos and Ravagers.

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ferrusmanus
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 20:11

this is my first try considering the voidraven game of exit from table, 2 unit of reavers to catch the secondary objective of enemy deploy..and than shoot charge and lock (and die lol).
The remaining is a backbone classic for all drukhari..the funny things is for stinger pod by my little calc are better to haywire considering the fact that vehicle never get the + 1 cover in any case..this is a debate but i have read the terrain rules mani time and only obscuring and dense cover are useful for vehicle.
The little counterchare are the talos and the succubus (and death wiches lol)
Any discussion is welcome

Kabal of the black heart
Arconte 60 huskblade 5 blast pistol 5, Writ of the Living Muse, Labyrinthine Cunning
5 kabaliti 45 1 blast pistol 5, 1 blaster 15
1 Venom, splinter cannon, twin splinter rifle, 75
1 ravager, 3 disintegrator cannon 160
1 ravager, 3 disintegrator cannon 160
voidraven bomber, 2 dark shyte 185
….
715

Wych Cult of red Grief
Succube 55 Blast Pistol 5, blood glaive
5 witch, 55  1 blast pistol 5
6 reaver, 120 2 blaster 30  1  grav talon 3
6 reaver, 120 2 blaster 30 2
---------
423

Coven, Dark tecnomancer, Hungry for Flesh
haemunculus, 75
1 raider,  disintegrator cannon, 95
1 raider,  disintegrator cannon, 95
5 wrach 45,  2 liquifier gun 20
5 wrach 45,  2 liquifier gun 20
3 talos, 2 macro scapler, stringer pod 105 x3  - 315
1 reaper 150
-----
860

1998
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 20:23

Wracks went up in points, you are still costing them at 9 pts each.

Any other Secondaries looking good for the True Kin? Shadow Operations look like a good choice, match dependent.
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ferrusmanus
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 21 2020, 20:33

@fisheyes wrote:
Wracks went up in points, you are still costing them at 9 pts each.

Any other Secondaries looking good for the True Kin? Shadow Operations look like a good choice, match dependent.
agrrr..true..my long adjustment is..wrong sob

for secondary linebreaker..while we stand we fight..(but need testing) and probabli first strike

one blaster..is gone sob..damn point raised ..

Kabal of the black heart
Arconte 60 huskblade 5 blast pistol 5, Writ of the Living Muse, Labyrinthine Cunning
5 kabaliti 45 1 blast pistol 5
1 Venom, splinter cannon, twin splinter rifle, 75
1 ravager, 3 disintegrator cannon 160
1 ravager, 3 disintegrator cannon 160
voidraven bomber, 2 dark shyte 185
….
700

Wych Cult of red Grief
Succube 55 Blast Pistol 5, blood glaive
5 witch, 55  1 blast pistol 5
6 reaver, 120 2 blaster 30  
6 reaver, 120 2 blaster 30
---------
420

Coven, Dark tecnomancer, Hungry for Flesh
haemunculus, 75
1 raider,  disintegrator cannon, 95
1 raider,  disintegrator cannon, 95
5 wrach 55,  2 liquifier gun 20
5 wrach 55,  2 liquifier gun 20
3 talos, 2 macro scapler, stringer pod 105 x3  - 315
1 reaper 150
-----
880

2000
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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 22 2020, 00:15

@fisheyes wrote:
Wracks went up in points, you are still costing them at 9 pts each.

Any other Secondaries looking good for the True Kin? Shadow Operations look like a good choice, match dependent.

I think a lot of these Secondaries play t our strengths because we have a lot of inherent DS abilities. Mandrakes are very very good at getting them for us.

I pick Linebreaker every game so far. Because it does not matter (outside of aircraft) which units get it. It can be a Haemonculus that has survived, Mandrakes or Scourge which have Deepstruck. I have gotten max points on this one every time I have played 9th thus far. Plus, you can still complete an Action if you want while getting Linebreaker. Mandrakes and Scourge are great for it.

I think you always want to look at the opponents list and see which ones you can max out or get 12+ points on for killing units. Titan Slayer, Thin Their Ranks, Bring It Down should all be considered as long as its easy enough to get 12+ points max and 10+ points relatively easily.

Cut Off The Head is interesting (GT Packet) because everyone's Warlord is pre-marked on their list now, they cannot change it. If it is a unit that can't hide via character rule, it might be a good choice. Plus, most of those kind of units we need to kill anyway. Some (Magnus, Morty, etc.) cannot even hide behind Obscure either.

I might be in the minority here but I have fallen in love with Deploy Scramblers. Yes it is only 10 points max, and yes it is all for nothing, but it is a very very easy 10 points for us. I have been placing 10 Wracks on the deployment line and doing the action. Then, moving 7'' out of my deployment zone for the next action, then Black Cornucorpians or having Mandrakes deploy the last one. The best part about this one is, it does not have to be the same unit and it scores at the end of your turn. Just be careful, you need to complete all 3 actions or you get 0 points!

*Side note* I think a lot of players early on will try too hard to find the Secondaries they can max out points wise. Some of the Secondaries I find too hard or force you to be perfect to get them. If you can score 10+ points with ease on a Secondary, I think it is totally worth it. Something like Deploy Scramblers nets us an easy 10 points for doing pretty much nothing. Now I still think if you can max out some Secondaries, go for those. But, putting your eggs in one basket on Secondaries I believe is foolish. Get the points you know you can, then deny your opponent points.

Teleport Homer is also great to combo with Linebreaker as well. Need to complete it 4 times, but very very doable. Watch out for armies that want to sit in the back and camp though. IG and Tau I feel will make this very hard.

I like Abhor the Witch. It can be difficult because we don't lots of Snipers, but we should want to get to those characters and kill them. Plus, lots of the players I know love the Psyker Secondaries and being able to deny them 15 points on Ritual because we killed their character T2 or T3 is golden!

I also think about half of the GT missions special Secondaries are good for us as well. I don't know them off the top of my head, but I feel like some of them are definitely auto-includes with the right builds for us.

So my go-to ones are: Linebreaker, Deploy Scramblers
Situational good ones: Abhor the Witch, Bring It Down/Titan/Thin the Ranks, Teleport Homers, Cut Off the Head, Mission specific Secondary

Hopefully this helps everyone. I am really enjoying the missions and the Secondaries. Lots of moving parts and thinking. I believe this helps us because our speed can really make up for a lot of things in the game.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 22 2020, 04:50

The thing to keep in mind with progressive objectives is that you have to be able to do it over and over. I don't see our DS units surviving in an enemy's deployment zone. Bringing additional units in to do the job takes them off Primary Objectives.

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 22 2020, 14:40

@False Son wrote:
The thing to keep in mind with progressive objectives is that you have to be able to do it over and over.  I don't see our DS units surviving in an enemy's deployment zone.  Bringing additional units in to do the job takes them off Primary Objectives.


You're right they won't survive unsupported. But, given terrain and pushing up the board, etc. those units do surprisingly last because you can hide them and they are such a low threat to the other persons army in terms of damage potential.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 22 2020, 15:09

@SCP Yeeman wrote:

You're right they won't survive unsupported. But, given terrain and pushing up the board, etc. those units do surprisingly last because you can hide them and they are such a low threat to the other persons army in terms of damage potential.

There is a game to be played here. Your opponent will know you are trying to score Secondaries by being in their deployment zone. Anything they commit to getting rid of your units in their deployment zone slows down their commitment to Primaries and some Secondaries. We do have Fire and Fade, so you can get your Scourges or WWP units behind some woods after shooting.

9th is interesting. I like the emphasis being on objectives. Some people are having a really hard time letting go of trying to table their opponents, and see the point increases through that lens. I'm glad we went through our group therapy together arly.

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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 24 2020, 18:35

Digging through the leaked rulebook photos and...

Have reinforcements always not been part of a detachment? I have always used screaming jets to drop in my Kabalite gunboats, but this rule would mean they would not be part of a detachment, which would a) invalidate the detachment, and b) mean that they dont benefit from an obsession. Or am I reading the rules wrong?
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 24 2020, 19:04

So 'Reinforcements' and 'Reserves', are different things. Using the Screaming Jets stratagem would make the gunboats 'Reserves'; Reinforcements are for summoned daemons or something that's added to your army list after the game has started.

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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 24 2020, 19:09

Right, got it. Just my tired brain being all tired and stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: 40k 9th Editon   40k 9th Editon - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 24 2020, 19:56

The GW app is available today. Unfortunately, the army builder part of it is not yet ready. I am curious about it, but I suspect that it will be disappointing.
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