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 Gunboats Still Viable

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pehldog63
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pehldog63

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PostSubject: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 29 2020, 17:07

My brother and I are looking at getting back into 40k. Mostly through table top simulator. I feel I need to get back into it b/c She Who Thirsts might be after me. I might be looking at getting some models someday in the future. Plan is to get my son hooked on the plastic crack. I played the True Kin from 5-7. Stopped bc of two reasons, got tired of the damn flyer spam and my wife was going to kill me. I loved the raider packed warriors and some MSU venoms. Will I get mopped off the board or can I do a decent showing with Kabalite Warriors raid force? Plan to bring some Coven as well since it seems they are the new it. Just started reading 8th rules but have been playing since 3rd edition. It has also been a little while since I posted here. My brother plans to play harlequins but might be starting a little campaign with a couple friends online.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeWed May 06 2020, 16:01

Sorry it took so long to answer, many players are not talking right now b.c of the lack of play with lock-downs and DE is pretty much established in play styles.

With that said Raiders are perfectly fine with Kabals, just don't go over board on upgrades, you don't need Splinter ranks and Splinter cannons, Dark lances are all but worthless on kabals too. How the math works out, if you have 3 Splinter Racks, its actually worst than having another kabal unit. Hopefully in the future Splinter ranks drops to 5pts maybe then they'll be worth it, luckily we do get yearly point changes.

Raider with Dis cannon and a 10 man or 2x5 mans are perfectly viable to have many of them. I play with 8-10 Raiders as i like them over Venoms and i don't play ITC (You see venom spam b.c how ITC scoring works) but in truth Raiders are equally as viable as Venoms.

Now its up to you if Blasters/Shredders are worth it, depending on your area mostly. For me they are not at all worth it.

I would also get some Ravagers, they are so fun to play.

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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeThu May 07 2020, 13:23

generally agree with amishprn. I tend to have more venoms than raiders, but that's more a factor of what I have models for than anything.

I do find though that in 8th edition I've ended up moving away from gunboats. Not that they are BAD. Just find that I more often need screens of men to protect my ravagers etc, or for objective camping in my backfield.

So my foot soldiers just tend to have different roles than they used to back in 5th edition.

Now my transports tend to be delivery vehicles for wyches when I play them, or for scoring objectives and board control.
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pehldog63
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeThu May 07 2020, 16:12

Thanks for the response back. I did make a list leaving out blasters. Makes me a little scared but that b/c how blasters were so important in previous editions. My list includes a mix of venoms and raiders. I also played my brother’s harlequins and those blaster didn’t do much but when the army 4++ saves on everything it kinda negates those shot.
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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeThu May 07 2020, 16:58

I think Blasters are essential to be honest. Having that shot that can do 6 damage is threatening to anything. Also, late game, when your transports are gone and you have squads of Warriors spread out, having that Blaster to take down a heavy target or being able to maneuver and get a "sniping" shot on a character because their screens are gone, is very nice to have. Also, you have the ability to just delete an infantry model be it heavy or light.
I think they are needed since we do lack so much AT firepower.
I have more Venoms than Raiders currently, but that is because I want the balance that Venoms bring since I have a god amount of Lances and Dessies. I can see the merit of lots of Raiders, but not of 10 man squads. I would still probably load them with multiple 5 man squads. If I go above 5 man Warriors or Wyches, I will run max 20 man squads to either spam (Wyches) or WWP (Warriors). 10 man Wracks might have merit, but with no accompanying character they seem to die rather quickly because they lack punch. But with PoF you get the most bang for your buck with their Strat.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeThu May 07 2020, 17:09

In this edition single shot multi D weapons are not... reliable enough anymore.

B.c we have 2D weapons with 3 shot, and D3 amount of shot weapons that can do MW's to vehicles. a single shot weapon with 4 points of failure is just that, to many points of failure.

Look at this this way

Math ish:
 


When looking at taking 5 Blasters 85pts, and its only about 3.5-5D vs most vehicles with an invul. 85pts is equal to a Raider, thats 10 more wounds, another model and a Raider will still do damage.


I haven't played a Blaster in many games and never notice my AT lacking, but i also do have either A) 6 Talos with HWB, or B) 12 Skyweavers with HWC.
The Skyweavers are more tanky and versatile, but my Coven list is 2x the damage for sure.


Now with all of that said. i know players that do REALLY well with blaster spam in 15 venoms. B.c at that point its so much redundancy that the failure points don't matter and everything is equally as lethal so target priority goes out the window.

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeThu May 07 2020, 17:51

If your lost is built around Talos, than Haywire Blasters can shine. But now you're investing 600-900 of your list with the talos and Haywires. Scourge are just not very good and even with Haywire don't do enough to warrant use.
I agree single shot weapons are not the best, but wound on 4's or 3's with a reroll for damage makes them more reliable than praying for the 5's needed on Dessies. Yes you can get another Raider for 5 Blasters, but I'll take 5 Blasters for the AT potential than the 3 Dessie shots on the Raider.
It's not as easy to just say "5 Blasters are 85 points and that's a Raider, and Raiders are better, here's Math..." Having 5 Blasters spread around to potentially deal damage to multiple targets, i.e. vehicles, infantry, etc. in my mind better than 1 platform, albeit 10 wounds and T5, because I threaten multiple units. The Raider can threaten two at the most including CC. My 5 Blasters can hurt 5 units or concentrate on 1. The versatility you have is different and not equal from a points perspective.
This game is more than Math Hammer. Raiders are good, and I am sure they work well for you. But saying a Raider is superior to 5 Blasters is just false. I'll throw the Harlie argument you brought up out so we can stay on topic.
I don't run 15 Venoms, only 4. But my list is built around everything being a threat. 5 Warriors shouldn't be throw away units especially if you can make them useful by giving them a weapon to threaten things. Blasters are not only AT weapons but very good against Heavy Infantry which are seen more and more in the meta. They will wound better than Dessies and Haywire and have the potential (though unreliably so) to kill that 3W model.
It is all about how your list operates. If you are going all Haywire for AT, you better bring a crapload of it, but you can't unless you ally. If you are relying on Dessies, you better bring a lot of Ravagers, Raiders, and Razorwings. Personally I bring some of everything so I have an answer to anything. I always build my list as a TAC because that is my playstyle and honestly the best way, in my mind to approach the game and our army especially.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeThu May 07 2020, 18:41

Not going to talk about the blaster vs no blasters b.c its a personal choice. But thats why i said i know players that LOVES them. You play it your way. I gave why i don't like them you gave why you do, so now he can choose what he wants to play.

Tho something i do not agree on are what you said about warriors. Yes warriors should be your pawns, they are dirt cheap, somewhat fast with PfP, and are the perfect throw away unit for us, put them on objectives, DSing body blocking, etc.. You don't want to throw away a venom/raider when you could instead use Kabals.

PS, a Blaster vs a 3W 2+/3+ models (aggressor, Cents, etc..) 1 blaster isn't likely to kill it tho especially the T5 ones, better vs T4.

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeThu May 07 2020, 18:44

As you said personal choice. You want to use them as pawns, your choice. I choose to make them useful and a threat.
I'll take a Blaster over a Dessie against a 3 wound model, again your choice.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeThu May 07 2020, 18:59

@SCP Yeeman wrote:
As you said personal choice. You want to use them as pawns, your choice. I choose to make them useful and a threat.
I'll take a Blaster over a Dessie against a 3 wound model, again your choice.

I was assuming he is taking lots of Raiders and Kabals 5-7 of them and he planed to bring in Coven (assuming Talos as they are the good coven). Not general all kabal for damage. Thats why the Raider vs Blaster is better IMO b.c he will have some coven. Now if he doesn't have enough Talos or not enough raiders then by all means take some blasters.  I'm not arguing you "general" blasters vs raiders. In the context of what he was asking. But i guess i should not assume he is taking Talos, as he might want Grotesques for all i know. EDIT: I try to give examples everything i help, example for me is how i learn things maybe i should not have use 15 venoms for an "redundancy" example, but it was the one i thought of, and instead use one with coven/kabal mix.

What my choice actually is:
 

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeThu May 07 2020, 20:53

I understand what you're saying. I think we both just play our army well, but with different units and in different ways.
I by no means think Raiders are bad, but by the same token Blasters are not either.
Your list above will rely on Dessies doing the heavy lifting and with 30 shots of them + Haywire, you might be able kill those heavy targets you need to. If that works good for you!

@pehldog
Honestly it is all about what your list looks like and how you build it. Depending on the Coven units, I believe will determine whether you take Raiders/Venoms/ Warriors w/Blasters, etc. Throw up a list and let us see what you're thinking and it will give us a better idea on how to help you.
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pehldog63
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeThu May 07 2020, 21:16

Thank you for the different points of view. I am running grots and not a Talos. Probably the best thing but I like the idea of them. Will have to five different lists a try. Thanks again
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pehldog63
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeThu May 07 2020, 21:17


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [69 PL, 1,184pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Type: Kabal of the Black Heart

+ HQ +

Archon [4 PL, 71pts]: 1. Legendary Fighter, Blast Pistol, Hatred Eternal, Huskblade, The Helm of Spite, Warlord

Archon [4 PL, 57pts]: Splinter pistol, Venom Blade

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 30pts]
. 4x Kabalite Warrior: 4x Splinter Rifle
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 30pts]
. 4x Kabalite Warrior: 4x Splinter Rifle
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 30pts]
. 4x Kabalite Warrior: 4x Splinter Rifle
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 30pts]
. 4x Kabalite Warrior: 4x Splinter Rifle
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 30pts]
. 4x Kabalite Warrior: 4x Splinter Rifle
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

+ Heavy Support +

Ravager [7 PL, 140pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager [7 PL, 140pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager [7 PL, 140pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Raider [5 PL, 81pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Shock Prow

Raider [5 PL, 80pts]: Disintegrator cannon

Venom [4 PL, 65pts]: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom [4 PL, 65pts]: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom [4 PL, 65pts]: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom [4 PL, 65pts]: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom [4 PL, 65pts]: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

++ Patrol Detachment (Aeldari - Drukhari) [19 PL, 316pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Type: Prophets of Flesh

+ HQ +

Haemonculus [5 PL, 75pts]: Haemonculus tools, Hexrifle

+ Troops +

Wracks [3 PL, 45pts]
. Acothyst: Haemonculus tools
. 4x Wracks: 4x Haemonculus Tools

Wracks [3 PL, 45pts]
. Acothyst: Haemonculus tools
. 4x Wracks: 4x Haemonculus Tools

+ Elites +

Grotesques [8 PL, 151pts]
. Grotesque with Liquifier Gun: Flesh gauntlet, Liquifier Gun
. Grotesque with Monstrous Cleaver: Flesh gauntlet
. Grotesque with Monstrous Cleaver: Flesh gauntlet
. Grotesque with Monstrous Cleaver: Flesh gauntlet

++ Total: [88 PL, 1,500pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeThu May 07 2020, 23:56

So if you are taking grots and b.c your list is still low on points (normally round points out to like 1k, 1250, 1500, etc.. but you don't have too) i would take some blasters then for sure.

IDK about the LG on the Grots tho, it is very costly.

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pehldog63
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeFri May 08 2020, 00:22

The list is at 1500. I did make a new list and put a Talos in there.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeFri May 08 2020, 00:26

Oh my bad i looked at the wrong spot. I have a visual problem and Batterscribe is hard for me to read. (its really if things are lined up, my eyes do a visual trimmer and line/rows move on me)


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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeFri May 08 2020, 13:18

Something that nobody has mentioned is the time it takes to move a Mech list in a time-sensitive gaming enviornment. I stopped playing IG because of how long it took to move all the infantry squads/psychic powers/orders/shooting/etc. With a Gunboat list you are very quick at setting up and movement.

For my $0.02, those blasters CAN do work. Generally they fluff their shots, but 1-2 times per game they get a good shot off and do 5-6 damage to something scary. Always love it when my opponent takes 5 wounds off his Hive Tyrant, then ask how many points the 5 man warrior squad costs Very Happy
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeFri May 08 2020, 13:49

@fisheyes wrote:
Something that nobody has mentioned is the time it takes to move a Mech list in a time-sensitive gaming enviornment. I stopped playing IG because of how long it took to move all the infantry squads/psychic powers/orders/shooting/etc. With a Gunboat list you are very quick at setting up and movement.

For my $0.02, those blasters CAN do work. Generally they fluff their shots, but 1-2 times per game they get a good shot off and do 5-6 damage to something scary. Always love it when my opponent takes 5 wounds off his Hive Tyrant, then ask how many points the 5 man warrior squad costs Very Happy

Mech lists other than Venom spam with kabals, i tried it once 12 venoms with 12 kabals and 12 blasters.

OH MAN, the amount of rolling is stupid, to speed it up i was just rolling 2-3 venoms at once after turn 2, the other player was fully ok with it lol (in an event, sometimes thats a no no). Its something like 400 dice rolls a turn if they don;t kill more than 2 turn 1.

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PostSubject: Re: Gunboats Still Viable   Gunboats Still Viable I_icon_minitimeSat May 09 2020, 16:04

@pehldog63 wrote:
The list is at 1500. I did make a new list and put a Talos in there.

I would be curious to see your updated list. The general advice I would give is to avoid a patrol detachment unless you've got a VERY good reason to include it. Getting 0CPs and requiring troops is just a bad combo.

However, coven stuff works really well in both Vanguard and Spearhead detachments. A haemonculus, 2 talos, and a Chronos, for instance, is only about 30 points more than your patrol detachment. Or you could lean further into Grotesques and do 2 squads of 3 and a squad mandrakes for only about 50 more.

I'd even take a minimal Dark Technomancer battalion with hexrifles and venom blades over that patrol for about the same cost.

I definitely agree with the "more boys, less toys" principle, but I don't interpret that to mean specifically more troops. Drukhari troops are cheap and good, so they're never a bad choice, but the scoring ability troops offer isn't as important for us. Typically we win by controlling the board (and, thus, the majority of the objectives), and flinging empty transports or whatever is available to contest objectives we can't push the opponent off of.

Keep upgrades minimal and focused, and that will allow you to fit in more difference making units.
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