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Subsanity
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 30 2020, 18:27

So i have a venom spam list with incubi and kabilits. I have gone back and forth with scourges and not a fan of haywire. Would you rather play a sniper unit dropped in cover or blasters and use the fire and fade strat? Anyone have experance with eather load out?
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p0mp3
Slave
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 31 2020, 12:32

Signe you run a venom spam, A unit in the back could be a great complement, darklances is cheaper now, and you get a decent save on scourges in cover. Run them in 10 so you got some wounds to burn before you lose out on Lances.
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Subsanity
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 31 2020, 13:46

Thats what I have been thinking.
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fisheyes
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 31 2020, 18:53

Seems strange to run Heavy DLs on a unit that wants to move.

Have not run the numbers, but how much more cost effective is it to run them with Scourges over Kabalite Warriors? Warriors would have more wounds, be just as tough in cover (strike from the shadows) and can also DS with a stratagem.

Fire and Fade is an amazing Stratagem, you may want to save that for other units.
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Slave
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 31 2020, 19:05

Scourges get a 2+ 6++ with strike from the shadows. You can still use the mobility to move around with the other 6 to get potshots in. That leaves kabalites to stick around in venoms!
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Slave
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 31 2020, 19:07

They would be quite a tasty target though. But that's how we roll anyway, let the enemies pick their poison and balance out target saturation.
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Glass Battleaxe
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 31 2020, 21:40

@Subsanity wrote:
So i have a venom spam list with incubi and kabilits. I have gone back and forth with scourges and not a fan of haywire. Would you rather play a sniper unit dropped in cover or blasters and use the fire and fade strat? Anyone have experance with eather load out?

My 2 cents on the subject:

If you want them to stay accurate and mobile; then Blasters without a shadow of a doubt.

If you want them to drop in and melt something; then Blasters without a shadow of a doubt.

Basically, on Infantry, I always prefer Blasters over Dark Lances.

Dark Lances may be cheaper than Blasters now, but on anything other than Vehicles, I don't see the point - is being -1 to hit after moving/deep striking really worth that 2 point difference in cost?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 31 2020, 22:14

I would do neither and go Shredders lol

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 01 2020, 04:22

@Glass Battleaxe wrote:
Dark Lances may be cheaper than Blasters now, but on anything other than Vehicles, I don't see the point - is being -1 to hit after moving/deep striking really worth that 2 point difference in cost?

Double the range might be worth it, though...

Kind of moot point, I guess. I unfortunately don't really see Scourges having much of a place on the tabletop at the moment.
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Subsanity
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 01 2020, 04:26

I have blasters on them now and still trying to figure out there sweet spot. I jave 5 more I am working on and was thinking perhaps a sniper unit.

I have tried out the shredder approch I have plenty of splenterfire so im looking to add in a bit more anti tank.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 01 2020, 12:56

Just ran the numbers, and the Scourges are significantly more point efficient than any other DL carrier. Of course, they are also paper thin and would die if you even look at them, but for the price it may be worth it.

Like most DE units, you probably would need to run multiple units so that something survives to Turn 2 if you go second (and choose not to DS). Why not a unit of DL and a unit of Blasters? Seems like the best of both worlds.

What does the rest of your list look like? That will affect the choice.
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 01 2020, 14:34

Right you could do two units of five with 2 DLs in each. That gives you wounds to spare, better spread on the board and some target saturation. You probably won't fill upp your fast attack slots and you leave points to the rest of the army.

Combined with blasters, I belive you run into a range issue.
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Subsanity
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 02 2020, 12:10

How do I copy witout points in battlescribe?
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Subsanity
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 02 2020, 12:16


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) ++

+ Configuration +

Battle-forged CP

Detachment CP

Detachment Type: Kabal of the Flayed Skull

+ HQ +

Archon: Huskblade, Shadowfield, Soulthirst, Splinter pistol, The Obsidian Veil, Warlord

The Visarch: Asu-var, the Sword of Silent Screams, Forceshield

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors
. 3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors
. 3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors
. 3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors
. 3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

+ Elites +

Incubi
. 9x Incubi: 9x Klaive
. Klaivex: Demiklaives

+ Fast Attack +

Scourges
. 2x Scourge w/ shardcarbine: 2x Shardcarbine
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

+ Dedicated Transport +

Venom: Bladevanes, Flickerfield, Night Shield, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom: Bladevanes, Flickerfield, Night Shield, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom: Bladevanes, Flickerfield, Night Shield, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom: Bladevanes, Flickerfield, Night Shield, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom: Bladevanes, Flickerfield, Night Shield, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

++ Total: [52 PL, 8CP, 996pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)
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Subsanity
Kabalite Warrior
Subsanity

Posts : 249
Join date : 2016-10-13
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 02 2020, 20:09

Cleaned up with suggestions. I forgot to mention this is for 1000pt so im over right now.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) ++

+ Configuration +

Battle-forged CP

Detachment CP

Detachment Type: Kabal of the Flayed Skull

+ HQ +

Archon: Huskblade, Soulthirst, Splinter pistol, The Obsidian Veil, Warlord

The Visarch

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors
. 3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors
. 3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors
. 3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors
. 3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

+ Elites +

Incubi
. 9x Incubi: 9x Klaive
. Klaivex: Demiklaives

+ Fast Attack +

Scourges
. 2x Scourge w/ shardcarbine: 2x Shardcarbine
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

Scourges
. 2x Scourge w/ shardcarbine: 2x Shardcarbine
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Dark Lance
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

+ Dedicated Transport +

Venom: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

++ Total: [54 PL, 8CP, 1,024pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)
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Subsanity
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 02 2020, 20:10

Im also webwaying in the incubi
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 03 2020, 16:33

OK, 1000 pt list does change things slightly.

If you deploy your Scourges on the table during deployment, they are the obvious target priority for any opponent with a pulse. I highly doubt they will survive to shoot if you go second, and will probably only get 1 round of shooting if you go first.

If your plan is to DS them in Turn 2, that may work. However, you would then be dealing with the -1 to hit from Heavy, in addition to any modifiers in the enemy army.

My $0.02 would be to stick to blasters and DS them in Turn 2. Venoms will be more than able to clear away any screens by Turn 2, and they are protected from Alpha Strike while in DS.
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Subsanity
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 04 2020, 01:40

Sounds good and I dont have to build blasters there already made lol.
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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 08 2020, 22:41

I tried the DL load out for a while when 8th first came out. Never was able to win with them.

Then as others have pointed out, someone pointed out to me that I was trying to play a mobile unit as a gunline. So I was paying all kinds of points for the ability to jump, deepstrike etc, and not getting the benefit of it.

So for sure you need a gun you can use on the move. Haywire and Shredders are my favourites. But blasters would be fine too.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 09 2020, 05:51

@Silverglade wrote:
I tried the DL load out for a while when 8th first came out.   Never was able to win with them.    

Then as others have pointed out, someone pointed out to me that I was trying to play a mobile unit as a gunline.   So I was paying all kinds of points for the ability to jump, deepstrike etc, and not getting the benefit of it.  

So for sure you need a gun you can use on the move.   Haywire and Shredders are my favourites.   But blasters would be fine too.

I disagree. 4 scourges moving averages 2 hits. A dark lance ravager averages 2 hits too. It's not like their efficiency drops off a cliff if you move.

I think what hurts scourges most is the uncertainty of the first turn. They're fragile enough that if you set up hoping to go first and are wrong, they're a liability. If you think you're going 2nd and deploy them out of LoS (or in deep strike), but end up going first, you miss the chance to shoot without moving.

In the latest iteration of ITC (not saying it's the gold standard), who is going first is known before either player deploys. So if you're going first, you can set them in cover with lanes of fire to force your opponent into a conservative deployment. If you're going 2nd, they are extremely easy to hide out of LoS. Yes, you have to move to shoot them, but unlike a ravager, they'll get to shoot at least once. After dark lances do what they do, they run out of good targets pretty quickly, so I their fragility isn't a huge issue. Make your impact early, then die. This is the way if the scourge.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 09 2020, 14:20

@sekac wrote:
@Silverglade wrote:
I tried the DL load out for a while when 8th first came out.   Never was able to win with them.    

Then as others have pointed out, someone pointed out to me that I was trying to play a mobile unit as a gunline.   So I was paying all kinds of points for the ability to jump, deepstrike etc, and not getting the benefit of it.  

So for sure you need a gun you can use on the move.   Haywire and Shredders are my favourites.   But blasters would be fine too.

I disagree. 4 scourges moving averages 2 hits. A dark lance ravager averages 2 hits too. It's not like their efficiency drops off a cliff if you move.

I think what hurts scourges most is the uncertainty of the first turn. They're fragile enough that if you set up hoping to go first and are wrong, they're  a liability. If you think you're going 2nd and deploy them out of LoS (or in deep strike), but end up going first, you miss the chance to shoot without moving.

In the latest iteration of ITC (not saying it's the gold standard), who is going first is known before either player deploys. So if you're going first, you can set them in cover with lanes of fire to force your opponent into a conservative deployment. If you're going 2nd, they are extremely easy to hide out of LoS. Yes, you have to move to shoot them, but unlike a ravager, they'll get to shoot at least once. After dark lances do what they do, they run out of good targets pretty quickly, so I their fragility isn't a huge issue. Make your impact early, then die. This is the way if the scourge.


You'll not really giving the Ravagers the proper credit tho, as they can get re-roll s 1's to hit/wound, scourges can not. Also they are treat as Assault where Scourges are not. And has 10 wounds T6, 4+/5++, finally they have traits which can improve their damage a lot vs other things or even give them a FnP. With 4 DL's on scourges they are 120pts (only a 20pt difference). And those 20pts is not much at all for the toughness/capability of the ravagers, also you take a couple more to equal the Ravager, its 7 wounds, t3, 6+/FnP,  no traits, and heavy weapons.


Its not a real comparison at all once you add i all the differences.


And about ITC, well if you are playing ITC events you are taking Dis Cannons not DL's, and your not take Scourges b.c its easier to get Kill more turn 2 and on where at Least if they kill a Ravager they might not kill something else, especially on turn 1 if you go second and hide/stay back (we are fast and they can't DS turn 1). So you do want Ravagers in ITC over scourges (Unless you know they can't get kill more/hold more b.c you are not taking venom spam/msu of kabals for 2 battalions).


Having a unit of Scourges even in ITC can be fine, but you need them to really be worth it, so HWB/Shredders will help with that, especially with Fire and Fade, bring them in turn 3 to kill off a unit on an objective, or just DS and hide, then Shoot --> Shoot --> Fire and fade onto the objective or back to hiding.

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False Son
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False Son

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 09 2020, 18:34

i'm wary of Shredders on Scourges. Auspex Scan rules out Winged Strike on lots of Imperial armies.
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Subsanity
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 09 2020, 20:29

Wow alot of information thanks everyone. I will try a few more games with the blasters and if I have no luck utilizing the stratagems then I will go back to HWB.
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Dreadblizzaard

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 12 2020, 00:26

I don't know if this will help but I like to run a unit of blasters and dl's. The blasters for moving in and blasting and the dl's for range, kinda free heavy support that can move fast if it needs too. But I also run a squad with heat too, my opponents freak and go after these leaving my warriors in a position to do their thing. I also like to run at least one razorwing to help pull fire away.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges DL or Blasters   Scourges DL or Blasters I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 12 2020, 01:26

@amishprn86 wrote:
@sekac wrote:
@Silverglade wrote:
I tried the DL load out for a while when 8th first came out.   Never was able to win with them.    

Then as others have pointed out, someone pointed out to me that I was trying to play a mobile unit as a gunline.   So I was paying all kinds of points for the ability to jump, deepstrike etc, and not getting the benefit of it.  

So for sure you need a gun you can use on the move.   Haywire and Shredders are my favourites.   But blasters would be fine too.

I disagree. 4 scourges moving averages 2 hits. A dark lance ravager averages 2 hits too. It's not like their efficiency drops off a cliff if you move.

I think what hurts scourges most is the uncertainty of the first turn. They're fragile enough that if you set up hoping to go first and are wrong, they're  a liability. If you think you're going 2nd and deploy them out of LoS (or in deep strike), but end up going first, you miss the chance to shoot without moving.

In the latest iteration of ITC (not saying it's the gold standard), who is going first is known before either player deploys. So if you're going first, you can set them in cover with lanes of fire to force your opponent into a conservative deployment. If you're going 2nd, they are extremely easy to hide out of LoS. Yes, you have to move to shoot them, but unlike a ravager, they'll get to shoot at least once. After dark lances do what they do, they run out of good targets pretty quickly, so I their fragility isn't a huge issue. Make your impact early, then die. This is the way if the scourge.


You'll not really giving the Ravagers the proper credit tho, as they can get re-roll s 1's to hit/wound, scourges can not. Also they are treat as Assault where Scourges are not. And has 10 wounds T6, 4+/5++, finally they have traits which can improve their damage a lot vs other things or even give them a FnP. With 4 DL's on scourges they are 120pts (only a 20pt difference). And those 20pts is not much at all for the toughness/capability of the ravagers, also you take a couple more to equal the Ravager, its 7 wounds, t3, 6+/FnP,  no traits, and heavy weapons.


Its not a real comparison at all once you add i all the differences.


And about ITC, well if you are playing ITC events you are taking Dis Cannons not DL's, and your not take Scourges b.c its easier to get Kill more turn 2 and on where at Least if they kill a Ravager they might not kill something else, especially on turn 1 if you go second and hide/stay back (we are fast and they can't DS turn 1). So you do want Ravagers in ITC over scourges (Unless you know they can't get kill more/hold more b.c you are not taking venom spam/msu of kabals for 2 battalions).


Having a unit of Scourges even in ITC can be fine, but you need them to really be worth it, so HWB/Shredders will help with that, especially with Fire and Fade, bring them in turn 3 to kill off a unit on an objective, or just DS and hide, then Shoot --> Shoot --> Fire and fade onto the objective or back to hiding.

I don't take ravagers in ITC at all. Too hard too hide, to easy to kill. So I usually have almost no dissies.

Regardless, you missed my point.

It's not a comparison of scourges vs ravagers. It's that the mindset that dark lance scourges can't move is folly. Then they're ONLY as effective as a dark lance ravager (factoring in its assault weapons btw). A dark lance ravager isn't a bad thing to be compared to.

And FWIW, Ynnari Scourges can re-roll 1s through Ancestor's Grace.

I'm simply trying to expand options.
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