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hydranixx
Wych
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PostSubject: WTC Teams Event - List Feedback   WTC Teams Event - List Feedback I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 18 2020, 02:26

I'm taking part in an event late April wherein teams of 5 will compete in ETC/WTC format event. As I mainly play ITC and haven't played many team events, I'm looking for feedback from fellow Dark Eldar players  pirat

Restrictions:
No FW allowed
2000 points
3 Detachments max

My allies will be most likely playing:
- Tau Farsight Crisis Suit Bomb and Commander spam or Standard Triptides
- Imperial Knights + Admech with 3 Crusaders and 3 Skorpius
- Imperial Guard + Marines with lots of artillery and a little counter attack
- Chaos - most likely a Possessed Bomb + Abaddon Cultist Spam hybrid list.


I'm building a list that is designed to take on Marines, while also having a decent chance at taking on either Possessed Bomb lists, or multi-Knight lists (or both  Twisted Evil ) if need be.


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For Marines + Possessed, I'm leaning:

Artists of the Flesh Spearhead:
1 Haemonculus with Electrocorrosive Whip
2 x 3 Talos with Chain Flails, Macro Scalpel, Twin Haywire Blaster
1 x 2 Talos with Chain Flails, Macro Scalpel, Twin Haywire Blaster

Expert Crafters+Masterful Shots Spearhead:
1 Warlock Skyrunner
3 x 3 Dark Reapers including Exarch with Rapid Shot
1 War Walker with 2 Starcannons*
1 War Walker with 2 Starcannons*

Black Heart Battalion:
1 Archon with Venom Blade, Cunning, Writ, etc
1 Drazhar
3 x 5 Kabalite Warriors
3 x Ravager with 3 Disintegrator Cannons

I have 10 pts spare.

The premise of the list is that Dark Reapers + Agents of Vect makes for a very unhappy Possessed bomb. While they can hide away in ruins, they stops them from taking the board control that their list is designed to take.

In the meantime I have enough Damage 2 in melee and shooting to (hopefully) keep Marines sweating, and a big blob of annoying Talos to take board control off and go toe-to-toe with even things like Centurions.

I've tried to avoid relying on too many vehicles in case I'm handed an Imperial Fist match up.

*I'm not overly sold on the War Walkers - but they're cheap Starcannon platforms so they're a decent placeholder, at least for now. The best call would probably be to just cut them for 4 more Dark Reapers if I can find the models.


------------------

For Marines + Knights, I'm leaning:

Artists of the Flesh Spearhead:
1 Haemonculus with Electrocorrosive Whip
3 x 3 Talos with Chain Flails, Macro Scalpel, Twin Haywire Blaster

Prophets of Flesh Battalion:
1 Haemonculus with Electrocorrosive Whip
1 Drazhar
3 x 5 Wracks with Electrocorrosive Whip

Frozen Stars Vanguard:
1 Shadowseer
1 Troupe Master Warlord
2 Death Jesters
1 Solitaire
6 Skyweavers with Haywire Cannons and Zephyrglaives

I have 68 pts to spare.

The premise of the list is that Artists of the Flesh Talos supported by Skyweavers is strong against Knights, but can also handle a variety of Marine lists. As Talos and Skyweavers both have Haywire and tonnes of Damage 2 attacks in melee, the list can also hold its own against infantry based Marine lists, and be a complete nightmare to any vehicle based.

I've used a very similar list before, though without access to Vexator Mask, against a list featuring 3 Crusaders, a Gallant and 2 Helverins, and was able to convincingly crush them even though I went second. Beating Knights by tabling them is something I've found very difficult to do with most Dark Eldar lists, so it's nice to play a list that can just take them on outright.

I do want more Skyweavers in the list, but they're very resource-intensive and they can be hard to hide.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: WTC Teams Event - List Feedback   WTC Teams Event - List Feedback I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 21 2020, 15:46

So I really only play ITC for competitive events, given there's nothing else available in the states, but regardless I'll share some thoughts.

First off, does the ETC team format let you use two lists? Essentially do you get to take both of those lists to the event, or do you have to pick one?

On the lists themselves, boy that many talos is going to be a huge pain for anyone to face. I am increasingly convinced though that for the current meta, talos might be the best Drukhari unit, they just soak up so much fire and still feel so economical pts wise. I haven't actually tried Artists of Flesh yet, I can see how they may be slightly tougher mathhammer wise but giving up vexator mask is a big loss. On the first list, curious why you took dark reapers, 3x3 with no transport will go down pretty quickly, especially if you face any thunderfire cannons. You might be able to fit in 2 nightspinners instead if you drop a warwalker, and so far every time I've faced nightspinners they have seemed pretty effective.

On the second list only a small adjustment I'd think about, why take the troupe master? Between the soltaire and Drazhar, you're pretty covered for punchy characters. Could drop him and the whips from the wrack units, bump some of those up to 10 strong which is pretty useful for black cornucopians.

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: WTC Teams Event - List Feedback   WTC Teams Event - List Feedback I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 24 2020, 22:19

Thanks for your insights.

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
So I really only play ITC for competitive events, given there's nothing else available in the states, but regardless I'll share some thoughts.

First off, does the ETC team format let you use two lists? Essentially do you get to take both of those lists to the event, or do you have to pick one?

You do only play one list - this is my attempt at figuring out which list archetype to run. Part of the figuring out process includes think about what my list is meant to beat - and once I figure that out, how I should tweak it. Currently I'm fairly certain I'll be assigned a variety of Marine match ups, but I want to also be able to handle some skew lists like Knights, Possessed, Alaitoc Fliers etc.

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
On the lists themselves, boy that many talos is going to be a huge pain for anyone to face. I am increasingly convinced though that for the current meta, talos might be the best Drukhari unit, they just soak up so much fire and still feel so economical pts wise.  I haven't actually tried Artists of Flesh yet, I can see how they may be slightly tougher mathhammer wise but giving up vexator mask is a big loss.

Talos are our best unit, I agree with you there. Every game I play them, I see their value more and more, and I become increasingly reliant on them. It's true that the Vexator mask is sorely missed. However Artists of the Flesh loses less value to Snipers (and since I'm probably gearing up to take on Marines, Eliminators and Scout Snipers are likely to show up), loses less value to spells that remove our Invulnerable Save (Null Zone/Death Hex), and frankly with -1 damage, Artist Talos are our most durable unit, bar none. They make Gatling Cannons, Autocannos, Thunder Hammers, Power Fists, Pulse Lasers and so on far less scary. With mostly everyone gearing up on D2 to handle Primaris Marines, Artist Talos really enjoy the meta.

The only weapon profiles I've found that are efficient against them are Melta weapons, but those are not particularly common right now.

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
On the first list, curious why you took dark reapers, 3x3 with no transport will go down pretty quickly, especially if you face any thunderfire cannons. You might be able to fit in 2 nightspinners instead if you drop a warwalker, and so far every time I've faced nightspinners they have seemed pretty effective.

Dark Reapers do die to mostly anything that gets to shoot them, but they're reasonably expendable. Their real reason for existence is that they chew through Possessed and some other melee board control lists - and given the relative popularity of Possessed Bomb style lists, I think this is pretty key to have in a team environment. They also provide an additional option for the team against Flier spam and Knights.

Also I don't have access to any Nightspinners Sad

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
On the second list only a small adjustment I'd think about, why take the troupe master? Between the soltaire and Drazhar, you're pretty covered for punchy characters. Could drop him and the whips from the wrack units, bump some of those up to 10 strong which is pretty useful for black cornucopians.

It's true I do have the punchy characters role covered, and Black Cornucopians does want a bigger blob. Unfortunately I only have 15 Wracks at my disposal. The Troupe Master's primary purpose is to give out his reroll to wound aura, which is extremely strong with the Frozen Star Skyweavers blob as they'll be dishing out 24 attacks on the charge. It's also nice that he can take the Starmist Raiment if I need it in the list. (On a key turn when the Solitaire uses Blitz, he can't advance, so the Raiment can't ignore Overwatch - plus the Solitaire almost universally wants Cegorach's Rose).

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: WTC Teams Event - List Feedback   WTC Teams Event - List Feedback I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 25 2020, 14:37

I faced a possessed bomb list for the first time this past weekend, frankly I wasn't that impressed with the actual possessed. It was the psychic powers, daemon princes and obliterators that killed most of my stuff. Vexator mask forcing possessed to go after talos was a huge help, let the talos wipe out a few because the possessed could punch. Rest of the game I just avoided them, I'd be way more concerned about facing a marine list that will pack a nasty punch in the shooting phase.

Because of that, I'd lean on taking the second list. In experimenting with adding in harlequins so far they really are a handy asset to any Drukhari list, especially the skyweavers and solitaire. It's also hardly like that list would do poorly vs the possessed bomb, the deathjesters can whittle down some of the support characters before the solitaire blitzes in there to kill at least 2, making the possessed bomb easier to take out. Second list also lets you take the vexator mask seeing as you have a prophets of flesh battalion.

I hear you on the troupe master being useful, I still just think given he can't always keep up with skyweavers he doesn't necessarily fit in perfectly. Seeing as you have 68 spare pts you could drop him and take say 2 5 man mandrakes which are pretty handy in any list, depending on if you have the models ofc. Plus fitting in the vexator mask, starmist raiment is less mandatory. Plus completely agree you absolutely want rose on the solitaire, I'd never take him without it.

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: WTC Teams Event - List Feedback   WTC Teams Event - List Feedback I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 25 2020, 15:29

Maybe there is a way to sneak a Helm of Spite in there. I'm a huge advocate of it. Going psychic naked these days is not fun.
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hydranixx
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: WTC Teams Event - List Feedback   WTC Teams Event - List Feedback I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 26 2020, 02:43

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
I faced a possessed bomb list for the first time this past weekend, frankly I wasn't that impressed with the actual possessed. It was the psychic powers, daemon princes and obliterators that killed most of my stuff. Vexator mask forcing possessed to go after talos was a huge help, let the talos wipe out a few because the possessed could punch. Rest of the game I just avoided them, I'd be way more concerned about facing a marine list that will pack a nasty punch in the shooting phase.

Absolutely, Obliterators and Daemon Princes are the really nasty part of the list, although they're not too painful if our Talos are run as Artists. I imagine from the Chaos perspective, being against Eldar with Fly, wrapping units with their Possessed wouldn't be as much of an option so they wouldn't have buffed or focused on the Possessed as much as they might in some other match ups.

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Because of that, I'd lean on taking the second list. In experimenting with adding in harlequins so far they really are a handy asset to any Drukhari list, especially the skyweavers and solitaire. It's also hardly like that list would do poorly vs the possessed bomb, the deathjesters can whittle down some of the support characters before the solitaire blitzes in there to kill at least 2, making the possessed bomb easier to take out. Second list also lets you take the vexator mask seeing as you have a prophets of flesh battalion.

Pretty much - I essentially made it Prophets to get access to the Mask. The Prophets strat in a pinch is a nice addition too but it's that Mask I want.

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
I hear you on the troupe master being useful, I still just think given he can't always keep up with skyweavers he doesn't necessarily fit in perfectly. Seeing as you have 68 spare pts you could drop him and take say 2 5 man mandrakes which are pretty handy in any list, depending on if you have the models ofc. Plus fitting in the vexator mask, starmist raiment is less mandatory. Plus completely agree you absolutely want rose on the solitaire, I'd never take him without it.

I have 10 Mandrakes, but I haven't run them often as I rarely get much value from them before they keel over.

One key 'weakness' of the second list is that it has no access to Agents of Vect. However that's often a trap for me anyway, so maybe that's a good thing.

@False Son wrote:
Maybe there is a way to sneak a Helm of Spite in there.  I'm a huge advocate of it.  Going psychic naked these days is not fun.

Well I'd either have a Warlock or a Shadowseer either, and depending if I end up including Harlequins or not, Frozen Stars' relic lets the user deny one extra spell, and gives +1 to all denies.

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: WTC Teams Event - List Feedback   WTC Teams Event - List Feedback I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 26 2020, 14:49

If you want to spam Dmg 2 weapons, what about something like this?

Vect Battallion
Archon, Venom Blade, Pistol
Drazhar
x5 Warriors
x5 Warriors
x5 Warriors
Ravager, x3 Dessies
Ravager, x3 Dessies
Ravager, x3 Dessies

Artisans Spearhead
Haemonculus, Venom Blade
Haemonculus, Venom Blade
x3 Talos, Flails, Scalpels, Haywire
x3 Talos, Flails, Scalpels, Haywire
x3 Cronos, Probes

Eldar Spearhead
Warlock Skyrunner, Singing Spear
Nightspinner
Nightspinner
Nightspinner

I know the Haemonculus in the Spearhead is extra, but you will see a TON of SM snipers and they will just kill the 1 Haemonculus you have accompanying the Monsters.  Now with 2, its that much harder to kill them. And another Haemonculus is never a bad thing.  Decent in combat and pretty difficult to kill to boot.  
I also added in 3 Cronos for the price of 2 Talos because you now have that many more monsters and SM still wont be able to kill the Cronos who are weaker in combat but you have a whole additional Monster now, albeit weaker in CC.
I swapped the Reapers for Nightspinners because I think you need to be able to reach out and hit anything you want, Nightspinners allow for that.  Plus with Dmg 2, you can kill the pesky Snipers and anything else with W2 in the army.  They are resilient and will highly benefit from the Ignore Cover and reroll traits.
And you get to keep Vect in this list as well, which I believe is pretty damn vital.
You can also take the Singing Spear off of the Warlock and give the Haemonculi a Whips apiece. I just like having all of my units have something.
Let me know what you think.  Hopefully this helps!
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: WTC Teams Event - List Feedback   WTC Teams Event - List Feedback I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 27 2020, 17:19

@hydranixx wrote:

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
I hear you on the troupe master being useful, I still just think given he can't always keep up with skyweavers he doesn't necessarily fit in perfectly. Seeing as you have 68 spare pts you could drop him and take say 2 5 man mandrakes which are pretty handy in any list, depending on if you have the models ofc. Plus fitting in the vexator mask, starmist raiment is less mandatory. Plus completely agree you absolutely want rose on the solitaire, I'd never take him without it.

I have 10 Mandrakes, but I haven't run them often as I rarely get much value from them before they keel over.

One key 'weakness' of the second list is that it has no access to Agents of Vect. However that's often a trap for me anyway, so maybe that's a good thing.

I only own 5 mandrakes myself which don't get much use because 5 isn't going to do a lot, but I've been watching Skari use a vanguard of 15 and they seem to be quite effective. For him it doesn't really seem like it's about their damage potential, it's more so about having 15 infantry that can deep strike without needing to pay any CPs for it, and if they all gang up on one target they are no slouches between melee and shooting.

I never use agents of vect because I always run flayed skull. Without a doubt there's time I wish I had it, but I think you can really make do without it.

Also on talos with artisans yeah they would take a lot less damage from obliterators, when they mulced my talos with 3 damage shots twice boy that would be nice. I'm pretty sure in that instance mathhammer wise, artisans is better than PoF.

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