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hydranixx
Wych
hydranixx

Posts : 569
Join date : 2013-11-26

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PostSubject: ITC list feedback   ITC list feedback I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 13 2020, 21:59

I'm looking for feedback with this 2k ITC list:

Drukhari Battalion Detachment
Dark Technomancers* + Experimental Creations

Haemonculus with Electrocorrosive Whip and Splinter Pistol
Drazhar
Wracks with Electrocorrosive Whip
Wracks with Electrocorrosive Whip
Wracks with Venom Blade
Reaper
Reaper
Raider with Dissie

Craftworld Airwing Detachment
Expert Crafters + Masters Of Concealment/Masterful Shots**

Crimson Hunter Exarch with Starcannons and Hawkeye
Crimson Hunter Exarch with Starcannons and Hawkeye
Crimson Hunter Exarch with Starcannons and Hawkeye

Drukhari Spearhead Detachment
Kabal of the Black Heart

Archon with Labyrinthine Cunning,  Writ of the Living Muse, Venom Blade and Splinter Pistol.
Ravager with 2 Dissies and 1 Dark Lance
Ravager with 2 Dissies and 1 Dark Lance
Ravager with 2 Dissies and 1 Dark Lance
Razorwing with 2 Dissies and Twin Splinter Rifle
Razorwing with 2 Dissies and Twin Splinter Rifle

*Another iteration of the list subs in Artists of Flesh, making the Reapers and Raider substantially more resilient to weapons like Autocannons, Dissies, Heavy Burst Cannons, or Imperial Fists in general. I'm also considering taking out one or both Reapers in favour of more Raiders, or for Talos/Venoms if I do end up going Artists.

**I'm on the fence with the Crimson Hunters whether to take the free cover save, or to ignore enemy cover saves. With so much high AP shooting in the meta, adding +1 to my save doesn't always seem very relevant as it gives me a 5+ or 6+ at best, but against some armies with mass low AP shooting, such as Orks, it could be very useful. Conversely ignoring cover with Masterful Shots entirely can be nice to counter units in standard cover, free Cover Save chapter tactics and of course, Prepared Positions.

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A Song Of Vice And Liars: Cynic's Sect Kabal

"Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight everything with fire."
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hydranixx
Wych
hydranixx

Posts : 569
Join date : 2013-11-26

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PostSubject: Re: ITC list feedback   ITC list feedback I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 16 2020, 01:14

Well, I got absolutely crushed.

My opponent was testing an intercessor-heavy Iron Hands Brigade, with characters giving him full rerolls to hit, and stacking 5++ and 5+++ to all his troops. His massed Stalker Bolter fire whittled me down, and with those defensive buffs weren't dying despite all my dissies. Meanwhile the infamous twin Autocannon Character Mortis dreadnought slowly tore my list apart over three turns.

I made some great tactical choices, using Drazhar to take down the Apothecary who provided the 5+++, and trying to lock down as many characters as possible to stop Heroic Interventions, and then tie the Mortis in melee with my Raider, but Iron Father Ferros managed to end up just within 1" from it and just ripped it apart from full health in one go.

The list just doesn't have the durability it needs in this highly attritional meta to survive for 5 or 6 turns.


....


So, we're switching up completely in favour of something markedly tougher to crack:

Drukhari Battalion Detachment
Artists Of Flesh

Haemonculus with Electrocorrosive Whip and Splinter Pistol
Haemonculus with Haemonculus Tools and Splinter Pistol
Wracks
Wracks
Wracks
3 x Talos with Chain Flails, Macro Scalpels and Twin Haywire Blasters
3 x Talos with Chain Flails, Macro Scalpels and Twin Haywire Blasters
2 x Talos with Chain Flails, Macro Scalpels and Twin Haywire Blasters
Raider with Dissie
Raider with Dissie

Drukhari Battalion Detachment
Kabal of the Black Heart

Archon with Venom Blade and Splinter Pistol.
Drazhar
Kabalite Warriors
Kabalite Warriors
Kabalite Warriors

Craftworld Airwing Detachment
Alaitoc

Crimson Hunter Exarch with Starcannons and Hawkeye
Crimson Hunter Exarch with Starcannons and Hawkeye
Crimson Hunter Exarch with Starcannons and Hawkeye

Warlord?

I haven't decided who to give Warlord to. Hatred Eternal turns Drazhar into an absolute blender, but Labyrinthine Cunning is a solid more long term investment to keep my CP up. However, given that I'll start with 14 CP and have basically nothing pre-game to spend it on, maybe Hatred Eternal is the way to go.

Relic(s)?

I'll wait to see the opponent's list, but I'm probably leaning towards Animus Vitae on a Haemy, or Helm Of Spite if they bring psykers. Animus Vitae does make you jump through a lot of hoops for it to work but if you can get it going on turn 2 with your Talos able to charge and stay in range, that +1 to hit is massive... plus there's basically no other good relics to bother with in our code Sad

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A Song Of Vice And Liars: Cynic's Sect Kabal

"Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight everything with fire."
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Burnage
Hekatrix
Burnage

Posts : 1180
Join date : 2017-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: ITC list feedback   ITC list feedback I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 16 2020, 01:42

A couple of thoughts.

For ITC, where your warlord dying is usually relatively unimportant, sticking Hatred Eternal on Drazhar becomes significantly more powerful and lower risk. Lab. Cunning is good but, like you say, you're already drowning in command points.

One caveat about that, with regards to relics. Don't sleep on a Haemonculus with the Nightmare Doll and Master Artisan or Regenesist from Alliance of Agony - they become hugely durable. The big downside is that normally you'd prefer to have Helm of Spite (or Vexator if you've got Prophets). Animus Vitae feels like kind of a waste of an item to me, comparatively.

I also think you might want to switch your Alaitoc Airwing for an Expert Crafters/Master Shots one. An additional -1 to hit really doesn't matter that much against Marines, but improving your firepower against them does.
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SCP Yeeman
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Posts : 285
Join date : 2013-04-17

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PostSubject: Re: ITC list feedback   ITC list feedback I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 16 2020, 14:45

I have found that Talos in ITC just bleed secondary points and can just lose you the game with them dying, and the worst part is the opponent does not even have to kill all 8 of yours, just half!
I really think your list lacks punch. The Talos can do some work, but relatively short range and with every one of them that dies, you feel it. The Haywire is good, but once those Talos start going down, the amount of firepower you bring to the table is really diminished.
I agree with Burnage, change the planes to more offensive traits. -1 to hit is nice, but you need more damage output in this list. You have a lot of units that just sit and dont do much.
I would also second the Nightmare Doll and Master Regenerist combo as it can make the Talos a little more survivable and that Haemon a pain to remove.
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hydranixx
Wych
hydranixx

Posts : 569
Join date : 2013-11-26

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PostSubject: Re: ITC list feedback   ITC list feedback I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 02 2020, 06:49

I have to agree, the list just lacked firepower. Crimson Hunters just don't do enough in a marine heavy meta, and I didn't have enough mobile units that can really impact the board.

I think Artists Of The Flesh Talos are interesting enough that I'll persist with them even if they do tend to give up ITC points fairly easily. Our traditional light vehicle skimmers just fall apart against Iron Hands and Imperial Fists so I've decided to continue to risk it with the Talos-heavy approach.

As my local meta is teeming with Primaris bodies, Knights, and dreadnoughts of all varieties, I've added Skyweavers to double down on the Haywire, and to threaten more of the board earlier with Ap2 D2 in melee. I opted to hold onto a small Black Heart detachment for access to Vect as there are just too many strats out there that will lose me if the game if my opponent casts them.

I do really feel the lack of Vexator Mask here, but overall I'm happy with the list, and am taking it to a 6 round event next weekend. I do like the idea of adding Master Artisan on the Haemonculus via Alliance Of Agony - thanks for that idea - as long as the enemy list isn't full of snipers.

Hence:

Drukhari Battalion
Kabal: Kabal of the Black Heart

Archon with Agoniser, Splinter Pistol, Warlord*                                            
Drazhar                                                                                                                    

Kabalite Warriors with Blaster                                                                                  
Kabalite Warriors with Blaster                                                                                  
Kabalite Warriors                                                                                

Drukhari Spearhead
Coven: Artists of the Flesh

Haemonculus with Electrocorrosive Whip                                                                            

3x Talos with Chain Flails, Macro Scalpels, Twin Haywire Blasters
3x Talos with Chain Flails, Macro Scalpels, Twin Haywire Blasters
1x Talos with Chain Flails, Macro Scalpels, Twin Haywire Blasters

Venom with Splinter Cannon, Twin Splinter Rifle
Venom with Splinter Cannon, Twin Splinter Rifle
Venom with Splinter Cannon, Twin Splinter Rifle

Harlequins Outrider
Masque Form: Frozen Stars

Shadowseer

Solitaire

6x Skyweavers with Haywire Cannons, Zephyrglaives
3x Skyweavers with Haywire Cannons, Zephyrglaives
3x Skyweavers with Haywire Cannons, Zephyrglaives


* while I did initially drift towards giving Warlord to Drazhar, this list starts with only 10CP, and is likely to be significantly more CP hungry. The harlequin detachment alone can easily chew through 5CP in one fight phase. Thus, I've decided to hold onto the trusty Labyrinthine Cunning

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"Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight everything with fire."
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Gherma
Kabalite Warrior
Gherma

Posts : 231
Join date : 2012-12-10
Location : London, UK

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PostSubject: Re: ITC list feedback   ITC list feedback I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 02 2020, 08:59

Recently I had some success with a very similar list and I find Artist of Flesh invaluable to survive the first turn when you go second.

A few things you may want to consider:

- You can use Yvraine in place of Drazhar for some extra psychic punch. You can use her without going Ynnari.

- For Talos i would suggest scalpel + flails. They are invaluable if you end up against a horde army.

- I would try to fit back in the list at least 2 Ravagers (o reapers). You currently lack long range firepower now and anti elite one.

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CHECK MY MODELS ON MY PROJECT LOG: KABAL OF THE SHADOW GYRINX
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hydranixx
Wych
hydranixx

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PostSubject: Re: ITC list feedback   ITC list feedback I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 10 2020, 18:55

@Gherma wrote:
- You can use Yvraine in place of Drazhar for some extra psychic punch. You can use her without going Ynnari.

- For Talos i would suggest scalpel + flails. They are invaluable if you end up against a horde army.

I don't really like Yvraine since most of her spells are buff oriented, and there'd be no other Ynnari in the list to buff. I really rate Drazhar, and in most games he makes his points back in no time at all.

My Talos were indeed kitted out this way, and they were most definitely invaluable against the plaguebearer spam I faced round 1. To be quite honest, I prefer using Chain Flails against almost all targets. Having 10 swings per Talos with full rerolls to wound is amazing, so I tend to only use the Scalpels for T6/T7 vehicles and infantry with 2 wounds or a great armour save.

@Gherma wrote:
- I would try to fit back in the list at least 2 Ravagers (o reapers). You currently lack long range firepower now and anti elite one.

I fully agree with the Ravager or equivalent sentiment. My losses were to two Blood Angels players, and that primarily came down to not being able to efficiently reach out and punch through their armour (well that and failing to Agents of Vect with a reroll both games Shocked ) In the future I think I want to either push to fit 3 Ravagers into the list somewhere, or add an Airwing with 2 Razorwings and a Voidraven. A single Void bomb might've just stolen a win for me in either of those games.

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A Song Of Vice And Liars: Cynic's Sect Kabal

"Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight everything with fire."
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Gherma
Kabalite Warrior
Gherma

Posts : 231
Join date : 2012-12-10
Location : London, UK

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PostSubject: Re: ITC list feedback   ITC list feedback I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 10 2020, 23:41

You should look at Yvraine as a mortal wounds dealer. Smite and Gaze of Ynnead with +1 to cast means between 2 and 12 mortal wounds a turn. She can be a game changer at times.

And she casts just two powers, so you wouldn’t have the opportunity of using buffing powers anyway.

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CHECK MY MODELS ON MY PROJECT LOG: KABAL OF THE SHADOW GYRINX
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hydranixx
Wych
hydranixx

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Join date : 2013-11-26

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PostSubject: Re: ITC list feedback   ITC list feedback I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 11 2020, 00:01

That's fair enough feedback. I have used her in the past doing exactly what you suggest, but with only 1 deny she does kind of feel like a worse Farseer with Executioner. I guess the big plus in her favour is that you can bring along with standard Drukhari.

Maybe I'll give her another spin sometime.

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A Song Of Vice And Liars: Cynic's Sect Kabal

"Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight everything with fire."
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Gherma
Kabalite Warrior
Gherma

Posts : 231
Join date : 2012-12-10
Location : London, UK

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PostSubject: Re: ITC list feedback   ITC list feedback I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 11 2020, 22:44

Yeah, she definitely is a worse farseer, XD, but she is better in combat though.

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