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 Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?

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Megad00mer
Slave
Megad00mer

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Join date : 2020-01-11

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PostSubject: Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?   Razorwing still worth using after CA2019? I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 11 2020, 01:49

I am thinking of adding a Razorwing to my Drukhari collection as I really love the look of the flyers and and they still seem very good even with the 10pt increase. 3 questions:

1) Is the Razorwing, in general, still worth taking at 145pts?

2) With Disintegrators and Dark Lances now being the same cost, are Disintegrators still the way to go in most situations?

3) Is it even worth taking a single one in a list or should they only be run in a Flyer Wing?



Thanks in advance.
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hydranixx
Wych
hydranixx

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?   Razorwing still worth using after CA2019? I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 11 2020, 08:34

1) Depends on your choice of Cult or Kabal and the rest of your list, but it can be.

2) Depends on your choice of Cult or Kabal, and depends on your Meta. Space Marines are very strong now, and a big part of their core are Primaris Marines of all flavours, for which you really want Disintegrators, and their sea of T6/T7 vehicles, for which Dark Lances are awesome. Generally speaking, Disintegrators are still more ubiquitous, and with Test Of Skill they're still fairly good against vehicles, so they usually still get the nod from me.

3) Competitively, Dark Eldar tends to run multiple copies of the same unit for maximum target saturation and threat overload. A single flyer in a list is probably not worth it unless you have a very specific use for it ie a single Voidraven or Hemlock etc to hard counter specific commonly taken units in your meta.

If you were to add only a single flyer, I'd probably suggest the Voidraven for its utility over the Razorwing, because it is less reliant on Test Of Skill. If you happen to be playing Test Of Skill Wyches already, then adding a Razorwing to one of their detachments would still be very welcome source of flexible firepower.

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velaresh
Hellion
velaresh

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?   Razorwing still worth using after CA2019? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 12 2020, 19:50

Cult taste of skill razorwings are the new black. The +1 to wound vs monsters and vehicules improve this units. The best option is a airwing detachment: three razorwing or two and a voidraven.


Saturation will always be better, 6 shots of dissintegrator of a razorwing with +1 to hurt vehicles will be better than a dark lance.
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amishprn86
Archon
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?   Razorwing still worth using after CA2019? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 12 2020, 20:17

IDK, i wasnt a huge fan of them anyways, i'm loving DT raiders lately, 160pts for 20 wounds 6 shots vs 145 for 10 wounds 6 shots. I basically am getting double wounds but losing out on Missiles. I find i need more survivability anymore compare to raw damage.

Marines are no joke....

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Burnage
Hekatrix
Burnage

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?   Razorwing still worth using after CA2019? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 13 2020, 04:38

@amishprn86 wrote:
IDK, i wasnt a huge fan of them anyways, i'm loving DT raiders lately, 160pts for 20 wounds 6 shots vs 145 for 10 wounds 6 shots. I basically am getting double wounds but losing out on Missiles. I find i need more survivability anymore compare to raw damage.

Marines are no joke....

I'm genuinely experimenting with lists that have no vehicles at the moment. I love the damage output of our Ravagers and fliers but they feel like they're literally made of paper against any Marine list that's even vaguely trying to win the game.
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hydranixx
Wych
hydranixx

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?   Razorwing still worth using after CA2019? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 13 2020, 20:58

@Burnage wrote:


I'm genuinely experimenting with lists that have no vehicles at the moment. I love the damage output of our Ravagers and fliers but they feel like they're literally made of paper against any Marine list that's even vaguely trying to win the game.

Are you spamming Monsters or forcing a footslogging infantry list or something else entirely?

Thunderfire Cannons and Whirlwinds alone basically invalidate elf infantry, so going without any vehicles seems rough. But, I agree with you that our vehicles are indeed made of paper.

Personally I really like the idea of going with an Artists of Flesh Talos and Venom based list, possibly sneaking in some Reapers too. My local meta is absolutely teeming with S5 weapons and/or weapons with D2/D3, so making Venoms T6 from the Coven aura and reducing all incoming damage by 1 is a huge deal.

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Burnage
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?   Razorwing still worth using after CA2019? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2020, 00:06

@hydranixx wrote:
@Burnage wrote:


I'm genuinely experimenting with lists that have no vehicles at the moment. I love the damage output of our Ravagers and fliers but they feel like they're literally made of paper against any Marine list that's even vaguely trying to win the game.

Are you spamming Monsters or forcing a footslogging infantry list or something else entirely?

Talos and Skyweaver spam, with Wracks as infantry. You lose out on a hell of a lot of mobility and ranged offense but everything in the army being 4++ (with Prophets of Flesh) at minimum seems to seriously help durability.

This is probably an overreaction after facing several Imperial Fists lists that have blown nearly all my vehicles off the table on turn 1.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?   Razorwing still worth using after CA2019? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2020, 01:33

Yep, 9 Talos is becoming more and more popular b.c of marines, 7 wounds, 4++/6+++ works.

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?   Razorwing still worth using after CA2019? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2020, 08:26

I think I prefer Artists Of Flesh for the -1 to damage, but I'm not sure yet. I need to do more playtesting with Talos.

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Burnage
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?   Razorwing still worth using after CA2019? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2020, 10:16

-1 to damage feels a little bit better on average than +1 to insensible to pain, but the problem for Artists is that Prophets gives you access to Urien, the Vexator Mask, the Wrack regen strat and Soothsayers as well. That's a hell of a lot to give up unless you want to run two different Covens side-by-side.

Either way, they'll still be substantially more durable than our vehicles would be. Hell, you can compare how many shots on average it would take from Imperial Fists Stalker Bolt Rifle Intercessors in a CM/LT bubble to take out each:

Ravagers: 15
Razorwings: 18
Prophets Talos : 25
Artists Talos: 37

This is damage coming from a Troops choice equipped with basic weaponry. It looks a little better if you remove the bonus damage that IF get against vehicles (it increases to 22 shots for Ravagers and 27 for Razorwings), but Talos are still nearly 50% cheaper and get access to a healing stratagem...
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?   Razorwing still worth using after CA2019? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2020, 13:08

Yeah a basic troop with a 36" -2 for 2D is really stupid. I can see how -1D could be worth it.

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Lord Asvaldir
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?   Razorwing still worth using after CA2019? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 14 2020, 15:40

Be nice if it was just 2 damage, imperial fist stalker bolt rifles are 3 damage against vehicles thanks to their special doctrine, long as they stay in the devastator doctrine. Absolute murder against our rather vehicle reliant army, it takes 2 stalker bolt rifle wounds to get through a venom's saves to kill it. I haven't actually had the pleasure of facing IF yet, though I've heard plenty of Burnage's sad tales over on discord. Razz

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hydranixx
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?   Razorwing still worth using after CA2019? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 16 2020, 01:51

@Burnage wrote:
-1 to damage feels a little bit better on average than +1 to insensible to pain, but the problem for Artists is that Prophets gives you access to Urien, the Vexator Mask, the Wrack regen strat and Soothsayers as well. That's a hell of a lot to give up unless you want to run two different Covens side-by-side.

I have tried making lists that pair both Covens together in separate detachments, but that eats up two of your detachments, plus it's a lot of HQ tax and a bit clumsy to differentiate which Haemy is buffing which units etc.

With Knights mainly out of the meta now, I don't think Urien or Vexator mask are as compulsory as they were before, getting +1 Strength is fairly underwhelming with things like Transhuman Physiology available and with far fewer T8 things around (Talos will never touch Redemptors in melee anyway, so don't worry about that). I contrast this with the -1 in my local meta of Stalker Bolter spam, Dissies, Dark Reapers, Pulse Lasers, Obliterators, Daemon Princes with Talons, and so on, where that -1 damage is ace.

One other niche thing to consider is that there are quite a few ways to reduce or even completely remove invulnerable saves in the first place (that Impulsor+Librarian with Null Zone combo has a ridiculous threat range), and if they have that it basically makes your choice of Prophets of Flesh a complete waste anyway.

I also like that the -1 damage also applies to any vehicles you decide to bring along in the Artists' detachment, whereas the 4++ only applies to actual Coven infantry and monsters. I am experimenting with bringing two or three transports along to give Drazhar and co a ride, and tie things up. Combined with the Haemy's +1 T, even a lowly Venom becomes extremely hard to remove. On average, 3 Imperial Fist Thunderfire Cannons doesn't even kill as single T6 -1 damage Venom. It's just Imperial Fist Stalker Bolters you have to worry about, but you can play around those.

@Burnage wrote:
Prophets Talos : 25
Artists Talos: 37

If this is accurate, this doubles my stance on picking Artists.

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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?   Razorwing still worth using after CA2019? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 16 2020, 14:47

I am currently running an Airwing with 2 Razorwings w/Lances and have found them pretty effective. I like the +1 Wound and they give you a pseudo sniper with their movement and ability to get at backfield units or units we wouldnt normally get to like Thunderfires or Night Spinners without either putting us in bad spots or not getting there until Turn 3.
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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?   Razorwing still worth using after CA2019? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 16 2020, 16:16

@hydranixx wrote:

Thunderfire Cannons and Whirlwinds alone basically invalidate elf infantry, so going without any vehicles seems rough. But, I agree with you that our vehicles are indeed made of paper.

I play Fists, and Whirlwind Vengeance Launchers with doctrine means i dump 2D3 S7, -2AP shots that cause 3 damage to vehicles. It is like having a Predator AC that can fire indirectly.

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
Be nice if it was just 2 damage, imperial fist stalker bolt rifles are 3 damage against vehicles thanks to their special doctrine, long as they stay in the devastator doctrine. Absolute murder against our rather vehicle reliant army, it takes 2 stalker bolt rifle wounds to get through a venom's saves to kill it. I haven't actually had the pleasure of facing IF yet, though I've heard plenty of Burnage's sad tales over on discord. Razz

They have so many tricks for killing vehicles, when you stop to think about it. Clearance Protocols with Frag Grenades are a bit sickening. Up to 10D6 S3 -1AP hits that cause 2 damage against vehicles. They wound our transports on 5+.

The one that cleaned my clock last time i faced it was the Invictor Warsuit. One got in my deployment zone on first turn and killed 2 Raiders between shooting and Fight Phase. It really hobbled my army for the rest of the game.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?   Razorwing still worth using after CA2019? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 17 2020, 14:27

Haemy, Wracks and Grots from.Prophets.
Talos and Transports from Artists.

I'm good with it
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing still worth using after CA2019?   Razorwing still worth using after CA2019? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 20 2020, 15:34

Yeah IF are just built to clear a vehicle heavy army, and unfortunately we're pretty vehicle reliant.

Taking 2 coven detachments depends on if you want to make a very coven focused army, I personally prefer to save my detachments for mixing in kabal/cult.

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