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 Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models

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Pippolele
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PostSubject: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 14:14

Normally, when wounds are allocated, you have to assign them to an already wounded model, roll for saves, roll for damage, repeat until model is slain and then carry on to the next unwounded model.

How do you allocate wounds to a unit that has multiple models that are already wounded? Do you have to keep assigning wounds to one model as per above scenario or can you freely distribute them amongst all wounded models and try to get some more mileage out of your unit?
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 17:04

I guess you attribute your wound to the most wounded model first. If equal, you choose.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 18:22

What rule lets you bring back a model while you already have a wounded model? I have not seen yet. From my understanding this is not possible unless the new PA that just came out has that rule in it somewhere.

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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 18:35

@amishprn86 wrote:
What rule lets you bring back a model while you already have a wounded model? I have not seen yet. From my understanding this is not possible unless the new PA that just came out has that rule in it somewhere.

It's not about regen model. It's about attibuting wound to your unit when several model are wounded by dark technomancer.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 19:14

@dumpeal wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
What rule lets you bring back a model while you already have a wounded model? I have not seen yet. From my understanding this is not possible unless the new PA that just came out has that rule in it somewhere.

It's not about regen model. It's about attibuting wound to your unit when several model are wounded by dark technomancer.

It doesnt work like that. Yes the wound is allocated to the firing model, but b.c you already have a wounded model in that unit it must go to that wounded model.

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Pippolele
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 19:18

@dumpeal wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
What rule lets you bring back a model while you already have a wounded model? I have not seen yet. From my understanding this is not possible unless the new PA that just came out has that rule in it somewhere.

It's not about regen model. It's about attibuting wound to your unit when several model are wounded by dark technomancer.

That's precisely the scenario I had in mind:
A unit of liquefier Grotesques that got wounded through Technomancer
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 19:19

@Pippolele wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
What rule lets you bring back a model while you already have a wounded model? I have not seen yet. From my understanding this is not possible unless the new PA that just came out has that rule in it somewhere.

It's not about regen model. It's about attibuting wound to your unit when several model are wounded by dark technomancer.

That's precisely the scenario I had in mind:
A unit of liquefier Grotesques that got wounded through Technomancer

See my previous post.

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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 19:20

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Pippolele wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
What rule lets you bring back a model while you already have a wounded model? I have not seen yet. From my understanding this is not possible unless the new PA that just came out has that rule in it somewhere.

It's not about regen model. It's about attibuting wound to your unit when several model are wounded by dark technomancer.

That's precisely the scenario I had in mind:
A unit of liquefier Grotesques that got wounded through Technomancer

See my previous post.

Thanks.

Can you elaborate a bit?
I thought that once a wound is allocated to a model it cannot "jump" to another one.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 19:27

I don't think the rules actually state clearly what happens in this situation - it's something that should really have been FAQed in Phoenix Rising, as Dark Technomancers is kind of an anomaly.

My assumption would be that DT can cause wounds to multiple different models in a single unit, and any wounds allocated after that can be distributed however you'd like. I'd definitely talk it over with an opponent, though.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 19:27

@Pippolele wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
@Pippolele wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
What rule lets you bring back a model while you already have a wounded model? I have not seen yet. From my understanding this is not possible unless the new PA that just came out has that rule in it somewhere.

It's not about regen model. It's about attibuting wound to your unit when several model are wounded by dark technomancer.

That's precisely the scenario I had in mind:
A unit of liquefier Grotesques that got wounded through Technomancer

See my previous post.

Thanks.

Can you elaborate a bit?
I thought that once a wound is allocated to a model it cannot "jump" to another one.


Wounds are not model by model bases, they are unit by unit. Thats why Plasma guns are not "allocate wound to the firer on a roll of 1" but instead' The firing model is slain"


Damage is the finally step in which the "model" now takes the damage, but b.c there is a rule that says all damage must be allocated to a wounded model in the unit first.


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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 19:28

@Burnage wrote:
I don't think the rules actually state clearly what happens in this situation - it's something that should really have been FAQed in Phoenix Rising, as Dark Technomancers is kind of an anomaly.

My assumption would be that DT can cause wounds to multiple different models in a single unit, and any wounds allocated after that can be distributed however you'd like. I'd definitely talk it over with an opponent, though.

It is clear tho.

Remember Allocating wounds and being damage are 2 different steps. You must allocate all wounds to a wounded model first, then that model takes damage.

If it were D3MW's then that 1 model would take the MW's first, but then BC MW's has a rule that damage spills over you now put the rest onto another model in that unit.

Its why it is written like this

"just allocate it as you would any other wound and inflict damage to a model"

See how it say Wounds and Damage? Its b.c they are 2 different steps.

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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 19:44

What other source of mortal wounds states that a specific model takes them? DT seems to skip the allocation step, and the description of mortal wounds in the rules is referring to when mortal wounds are applied to a unit as an attack.

Hell, compare the wording on Mental Onslaught to see what I mean;

Quote :
Select an enemy model within 18" of and visible to the psyker. Each player rolls a D6 and adds their model's Leadership characteristic to their result. If your score is higher, the enemy model's unit suffers 1 mortal wound...

Dark Technomancers doesn't seem clear to me at all.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 19:55

Tau has guns that say that and they faqed it to say allocate to the wounded model. Its been a while since i read it and i'm on mobile, but you should be able to find it.

Edit: Also Perils is worded the same and you can have units of Psykers.

"The psyker suffers D3 mortal wounds"

Remember units of Psykers still make you "pick a model in the unit to cast or deny" so it applies.

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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 20:04

The rules for psyker units normally specifically state that the unit as a whole suffers mortal wounds if they encounter perils of the warp. Warlock Conclaves and Zoanthropes definitely do, at least.

Quote :
When manifesting or denying a psychic power with a Zoanthrope unit, first select a model in the unit - measure range, visibility, etc. from this model. If this unit suffers Perils of the Warp, it suffers D3 mortal wounds as described in the core rules...

Quote :
If this unit has more than one model, when manifesting or denying a psychic power, first select a model in the unit - measure range, visibility, etc. from this model. If this unit suffers Perils of the Warp, it suffers D3 mortal wounds as described in the core rules...

The Tau weapon seems to have been errated, not clarified;

Quote :
If you roll one or more hit rolls of 1, the bearer’s unit suffers a mortal wound after all of this weapon’s shots have been resolved.

The Dark Technomancer wording is different. Is it intended to be the same? Uh... maybe. Covens are weird in that units can have a mix of weapons in them. It might be intended that, no, an Acothyst can't happily plug away with their enhanced Hexrifle while dumping mortal wounds onto the rest of his unit.

It 100% needs clarification and I don't think there's a clearly correct way to play it currently.
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Pippolele
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 20:06

@amishprn86 wrote:
Tau has guns that say that and they faqed it to say allocate to the wounded model. Its been a while since i read it and i'm on mobile, but you should be able to find it.

Edit: Also Perils is worded the same and you can have units of Psykers.

"The psyker suffers D3 mortal wounds"

If there are existing FAQ clarifying that wounds allocated to a specific model get "rerouted" to one that is already wounded then I consider that clear enough to cover the technomancer scenario.

Otherwise, the core rules do not provide a clear explanation of this scenario and I would distribute wounds strictly as described in technomancers
(each firing model suffers the wound)
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 20:11

To me, reading the rules for DT, the Core BRB rules how to allocate wounds, wounded models always allocate first, and how MW's are worded it is clear for me you put it on the wounded model.

But lets say it is NOT clear (As it is not for many players) RAW vs RAI, it is clear that the fluff is meant to wound the model doing the shooting but they also don't want a unit to have wound shenanigans, they have been faqing everything that could do that, so it is very clear you should not play musical chairs with wounds.

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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 20:16

@Burnage wrote:
The rules for psyker units normally specifically state that the unit as a whole suffers mortal wounds if they encounter perils of the warp. Warlock Conclaves and Zoanthropes definitely do, at least.

Quote :
When manifesting or denying a psychic power with a Zoanthrope unit, first select a model in the unit - measure range, visibility, etc. from this model. If this unit suffers Perils of the Warp, it suffers D3 mortal wounds as described in the core rules...

Quote :
If this unit has more than one model, when manifesting or denying a psychic power, first select a model in the unit - measure range, visibility, etc. from this model. If this unit suffers Perils of the Warp, it suffers D3 mortal wounds as described in the core rules...

The Tau weapon seems to have been errated, not clarified;

Quote :
If you roll one or more hit rolls of 1, the bearer’s unit suffers a mortal wound after all of this weapon’s shots have been resolved.

The Dark Technomancer wording is different. Is it intended to be the same? Uh... maybe. Covens are weird in that units can have a mix of weapons in them. It might be intended that, no, an Acothyst can't happily plug away with their enhanced Hexrifle while dumping mortal wounds onto the rest of his unit.

It 100% needs clarification and I don't think there's a clearly correct way to play it currently.

Strictly RAW I would go as follow:
Technomancer wounds get allocated to the specific model firing because it says so rather than saying that the unit takes the wound.

When allocating future damage to a multiwound and multidamaged unit I would go as follow:

Roll to hit and wound, collect pool of wounds to allocate.
Allocate first wound to a wounded model (any of them qualify as wounded model) roll for damage.
Repeat for remaining pool of wounds.
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 23:12

The section on mortal wounds in the rulebook states that mortal wounds are applied to the unit.

Mortal Wounds
Some attacks inflict mortal wounds – these
are so powerful that no armour or force field
can withstand their fury. Each mortal wound
inflicts one point of damage on the target
unit. Do not make a wound roll or saving
throw (including invulnerable saves) against a
mortal wound – just allocate it as you would
any other wound and inflict damage to a
model in the target unit as described above.
Unlike normal attacks, excess damage from
attacks that inflict mortal wounds is not lost.
Instead keep allocating damage to another
model in the target unit until either all the
damage has been allocated or the target unit
is destroyed.
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07 2019, 03:43

Except that this rule (going with the common codex before rulebook) states the model. So, assuming that that mortal wound rule applies to any and all mortal wound rules, the codex (ish) still states that it instead goes to the model.

If the mentioned tau ruling can be found, then we may have an answer other than multiple wounded models in a unit.

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07 2019, 03:44

Right, but the model takes a mortal wound. Then apply rules for mortal wound which say the unit takes the damage.

It could probably use an FAQ, but if someone tried to say RAW I'd look to the core rules writing and use that for application of damage.
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07 2019, 13:54

The rule book says that the mortal wounds are applied to the unit because it is referring to the mortal wounds produced by attacks: "Some attacks inflict mortal wounds..." , and that is always done from units (shooting unit) to to units (target unit).
The MW of DT is not consecuence of an attack, is from a hability, it specificaly sais "firing model", not "firing unit", so by RAW and by RAI, what DT pretends is clear: the model that use it must suffer the MW. You can't have a 10 wracks unit to absorv the 1s of the liquifer guns.

Allocate Wound: If an attack successfully wounds the target, the player commanding the target unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit (the chosen model does not have to be within
range or visible to the attacking unit). If a model in the target unit has already lost any wounds,
the damage must be allocated to that model.

The MW of the DT is not consecuence of an attack. There is no "target unit" so the player can't choose in wich model allocate the damage, and neither the damage must be allocated to any other model previously wounded. The mortal wound is suffered by the firing model simply because it is what say the obsesion.

The real problem and what GW must clarify are the normal wounds when you have two models wounded. Must the wounds be allocated tho the most injured model? Can you alternate the model that suffer the wounds? I supose that GW solution will be force the player to allocate the wounds to the most injured model. That probably would be the less complicated solution. But nowdays there is nothing that force a player to do it.
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07 2019, 14:32

I guess RAI isn't overly clear then. I think GW has made a significant attempt to make it so only one model in a unit can take damage. Therefore I don't think they need to FAQ how multiple models damaged would be affected.

/shrug I can't see this coming up that much, but maybe it will.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 09 2019, 20:28

@Rodi Sikni wrote:
The rule book says that the mortal wounds are applied to the unit because it is referring to the mortal wounds produced by attacks: "Some attacks inflict mortal wounds..." , and that is always done from units  (shooting unit) to  to units (target unit).
The MW of DT is not consecuence of an attack, is from a hability, it specificaly sais "firing model", not "firing unit", so by RAW and by RAI, what DT pretends is clear: the model that use it must suffer the MW. You can't have a 10 wracks unit to absorv the 1s of the liquifer guns.

Allocate Wound: If an attack successfully wounds the target, the player commanding the target unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit (the chosen model does not have to be within
range or visible to the attacking unit). If a model in the target unit has already lost any wounds,
the damage must be allocated to that model.

The MW of the DT is not consecuence of an attack. There is no "target unit" so the player can't choose in wich model allocate the damage, and neither the damage must be allocated to any other model previously wounded. The mortal wound is suffered by the firing model simply because it is what say the obsesion.

The real problem and what GW must clarify are the normal wounds when you have two models wounded. Must the wounds be allocated tho the most injured model? Can you alternate the model that suffer the wounds? I supose that GW solution will be force the player to allocate the wounds to the most injured model. That  probably would be the less complicated solution. But nowdays there is nothing that force a player to do it.

What I think should be is : for the purpose of DT, the firing model get the wound. So, you can have 2-3 model with 1-2 wound chipped. Then, when you suffer additionnal hit from another source, the most wounded model of the unit get the wounds. If 2 models are equally wounded from a previous DT, you choose which one get the wound.
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PostSubject: Re: Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models   Wound allocation to multiwound unit with multiple wounded models I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 09 2019, 20:39

That gets messy quick in an edition intended to be streamlined. Sure, that interpretation is more realistic and advantageous for the Drukhari player, but it is a pain for book keeping and counter to how wound generation has been handled in every other situation.

As to the realism, I think that went out the window in this edition. A lot of other aspects have been streamlined, so I don't know that we could push for much in regards to keeping things modeled correctly for how weapons would explode with our giant monsters made on suffering of space elves.
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