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Lord Asvaldir
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 15:42

I think the bigger issue with archons (well, our characters in general), is you can make one good character with relics and warlord traits, but once you've run out of those are stock characters are pretty subpar.

Anyway on pts changes, I'd accept a slight increase on some of our rather good units like the talos if it means a decrease in some of the subpar units like hellions. My number one hope though is definetly for wargear changes. Heat lances down to 10, liquifiers down to 8, maybe splinter cannons down to 8. If liquifiers go down I'll definetly be picking up some more wracks and trying them with dark technomancers.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 15:49

Archons are suppose to be scary in melee and good tactician. Where succubus are also good in melee, its more so that archons are suppose to be character hunters and succubus small unit attackers.

Archons for a very long time could actually be anti-character when the Shadowfield vs a Captain with 4 attacks was good, low chance of it going out, and we had anti-character gear, also getting stronger with every character kill.

But in 8th, that just isnt a thing anymore. Some characters like Smash captains are 1 hit wonder, they go out and kill a high costed vehicle then just die. Archons dont have the movement, or that ability, and if we kill a character we will be targeted out.

Its ways to easy to have characters single out now, with all the snipers, and MW abilities, with almost every army having 14-20" movement now as well.

Archons for 8th dont fill any roles well (melee or buffer) in general, you have to use relics and WL traits to do so. If they could have 16" movement on the other hand, at least there would be some better options.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 16:09

A big part of the problem with Archons is a problem with the tripartite divide in the Codex. Changing their aura so that it affects <Drukhari> units would open up a ton of build flexibility, at the very least.

Improving their synergy with transports wouldn't hurt, either.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 16:13

The Succubus wouldnt be taken if the Archon works for shooting and melee for all units. Really the succubus aura should be changed to rr'1 to wound in melee, that would give wyches a nice power boost.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 16:16

@amishprn86 wrote:
The Succubus wouldnt be taken if the Archon works for shooting and melee for all units. Really the succubus aura should be changed to rr'1 to wound in melee, that would give wyches a nice power boost.

Should the Succubus even have an aura at all?

It seems like she should just be a lot better in melee and lead by example.


Also, even if the Archon could buff all Drukhari units, you still couldn't take him in Cult detachments so I really don't see the issue.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 16:22

I agree with that actually. Make them 6 attack base in stead of 4, and take away their aura for a rule like -ap on wounds roll of a 6, or never wounds worst than on a 4+, now we have lots of optional things to do with her, and its more fluffy.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 16:32

This is more of an aside really, but I really wish GW hadn't gone with the whole aura idea for characters in this edition.

It seems like it would have made far more sense to instead tie them to Stratagems/CP generation (as a standard rule, I mean - not just with a Warlord Trait).

Basically, I think it would have been a lot better if CPs were generated each turn based on the number and type of HQs you have (with some HQs perhaps also unlocking certain Stratagems), rather than it being based purely on detachments.

I know it's irrelevant because there's no way GW will be making a change like that, least of all for us, but I think it would have gone a considerable way towards both making non-psyker HQs more useful and also better tying Stratagems into the game.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 16:46

I think the aura thing was b.c characters are not longer part of units.

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 16:54

@amishprn86 wrote:
I think the aura thing was b.c characters are not longer part of units.

That makes some sense for characters like Chaplains, who used to provide a bonus to their unit.

However, Archons, Space Marine Captains, Chaos Lords etc. didn't used to provide any bonus at all, beyond a slight Ld buff.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 16:59

Well if they take blasters and PGL's away from the archons, they need to be priced about 35 points.


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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 16:59

No but a lot of named characters did, including us and some gave out pain tokens right away (basically auras for pfp chart)

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 18:48

One way or the other an aura fundamentally doesn't make sense for Archons. Buff auras makes sense for Haemonculi (using evil tech-wizardry) and Succubi (which are surrounded only by the very best of their minions), but the Archon doesn't give a crap about his expandable pawns.

How can you possible justify a buff anyway. Are his surrounding Kabalites thinking: "oh no, the Archon is looking. We must be extra-killy now!"?
I must admit, given the writing of recent books that is not entirely unlikely.

And we all know about the insignificance of the buff in real games (unless you play with a BH Ravager Commander). Honestly, "Overlord" should be scrapped entirely.

Either give the Archon a debuff on nearby enemy units or turn his re-roll into a targeted ability that marks an enemy unit which he can use in the shooting phase (aka use from transports). It would literally solve all problems.
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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 20:28

i disagree completely a buff aura makes perfect sense for an archon they are master tacticians and the freaking leaders of their Kabals, they might not give a crap about his expendable troops but he DOES give a crap about winning the battle, raid or whatever hes doing since it usually means his own survival via fresh slaves...
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 20:39

@DevilDoll wrote:
i disagree completely a buff aura makes perfect sense for an archon they are master tacticians and the freaking leaders of their Kabals

If they're supposed to be master tacticians, surely that should be a reason for them to have a less-crap buff?

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 21:37

@Soulless Samurai wrote:
@DevilDoll wrote:
i disagree completely a buff aura makes perfect sense for an archon they are master tacticians and the freaking leaders of their Kabals

If they're supposed to be master tacticians, surely that should be a reason for them to have a less-crap buff?

maybe... im just saying it makes perfect sense for them to have it
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 22:49

@DevilDoll wrote:
i disagree completely a buff aura makes perfect sense for an archon they are master tacticians and the freaking leaders of their Kabals, they might not give a crap about his expendable troops but he DOES give a crap about winning the battle, raid or whatever hes doing since it usually means his own survival via fresh slaves...

You would think an Archon achieves this goal by his master genious and not by giving motivational speaches to the troops around him.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 22:52

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@DevilDoll wrote:
i disagree completely a buff aura makes perfect sense for an archon they are master tacticians and the freaking leaders of their Kabals, they might not give a crap about his expendable troops but he DOES give a crap about winning the battle, raid or whatever hes doing since it usually means his own survival via fresh slaves...

You would think an Archon achieves this goal by his master genious and not by giving motivational speaches to the troops around him.

Or those auras are his master tactician ideas, like giving orders to everyone around him making them better at what they are doing and not some "motivational speech"

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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 22:59

@amishprn86 wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@DevilDoll wrote:
i disagree completely a buff aura makes perfect sense for an archon they are master tacticians and the freaking leaders of their Kabals, they might not give a crap about his expendable troops but he DOES give a crap about winning the battle, raid or whatever hes doing since it usually means his own survival via fresh slaves...

You would think an Archon achieves this goal by his master genious and not by giving motivational speaches to the troops around him.

Or those auras are his master tactician ideas, like giving orders to everyone around him making them better at what they are doing and not some "motivational speech"

You say that, but the bonus aura from Writ of the Living Muse is literally derived from an Archon reading aloud some Vect quotes to inspire his troops.

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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 18 2019, 23:59

Or more a direct order from vect. Which, no matter what it says, is saying that you better not fail, because otherwise you'll find yourself in a far worse situation than anything you can imagine. Deldar high-society fear just thinking bad things about vect whilst near him. Direct orders from vect would be even more intimidating.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 19 2019, 00:16

@Sarcron wrote:
Or more a direct order from vect. Which, no matter what it says, is saying that you better not fail, because otherwise you'll find yourself in a far worse situation than anything you can imagine. Deldar high-society fear just thinking bad things about vect whilst near him. Direct orders from vect would be even more intimidating.


Especially if you're a low rank kabalite and the order from Vect include your full name. It means "Don't scew up"
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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 19 2019, 08:09

Also even if it's speeches don't forget there are different types of motivational speeches.
There is the the "for god and country", "for freedom" and even "for the empra" kind of speeches and then there is the "you focus fire and bring down that executioner no matter what or ill make sure there is nothing left of you for a haemonculus to regenerate" type...
And I always imagined the writ to be some kind of proof or declaration that vect is a living god which definately can get you motivated in a twisted kind of way. Imagine you are a nazi fascist pig in the trenches fighting and you suddenly get a declaration that Hitler died and then got reborn as a freaking demigod ready to wreak havok upon his enemies. Wouldn't that get you motivated to keep fighting and give your 100%? I know I would Might not be the best example but you get the idea...
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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 19 2019, 11:21

The more I think of recent changes, and the changes that might soon come, the more I think I should remove my second Archon, and replace him with Drahzar. That way I'll still have enough HQ's for a Battalion, The loss of the Archon's Blaster will hit me half as hard, and one aura is plenty for my Reaper.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 19 2019, 16:59

@DevilDoll wrote:
Also even if it's speeches don't forget there are different types of motivational speeches.
There is the the "for god and country", "for freedom" and even "for the empra" kind of speeches and then there is the "you focus fire and bring down that executioner no matter what or ill make sure there is nothing left of you for a haemonculus to regenerate" type...
And I always imagined the writ to be some kind of proof or declaration that vect is a living god which definately can get you motivated in a twisted kind of way. Imagine you are a nazi fascist pig in the trenches fighting and you suddenly get a declaration that Hitler died and then got reborn as a freaking demigod ready to wreak havok upon his enemies. Wouldn't that get you motivated to keep fighting and give your 100%? I know I would  Might not be the best example but you get the idea...

More like "Screw this up and I'll ensure you definitely won't die and escape my wrath."
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Soulless Samurai
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 19 2019, 17:13

@DevilDoll wrote:
Also even if it's speeches don't forget there are different types of motivational speeches.
There is the the "for god and country", "for freedom" and even "for the empra" kind of speeches and then there is the "you focus fire and bring down that executioner no matter what or ill make sure there is nothing left of you for a haemonculus to regenerate" type...
And I always imagined the writ to be some kind of proof or declaration that vect is a living god which definately can get you motivated in a twisted kind of way. Imagine you are a nazi fascist pig in the trenches fighting and you suddenly get a declaration that Hitler died and then got reborn as a freaking demigod ready to wreak havok upon his enemies. Wouldn't that get you motivated to keep fighting and give your 100%? I know I would  Might not be the best example but you get the idea...

I get the idea of motivational speeches.

However, motivational speeches are traditionally made *before* the battle actually starts. You know, when all your men are together and (assuming you're a good speaker) you can have a captive audience.

This is the equivalent of Adolf Hitler trying desperately to keep pace with a Panzer division and then attempting at the same to give them a motivational speech (without the aid of a radio or loudspeaker) in the middle of a battle.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Chapter Approved - What are you looking for?   Chapter Approved - What are you looking for? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 19 2019, 18:36

The funny thing here is that if our HQs didn't provide any auras I can absolutely guarantee we'd be complaining about that.

They just need to synergise better with our transports. That's the issue with them, and it's unfortunately probably not something that will be fixed in CA.
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