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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 06 2019, 22:19

i played some games with the dark technomancy and experimental creations combo and here are some thoughts i wanted to share:

Venoms are the s h i t..! we already knew that but man they are freaking good.

They will always take 2 mortal wounds when you enhance both their weapons lol

For some strange reason i had better results with Stinger pod talos than haywire talos... I was initially trying to screw vehicles with the haywire but i dont know they underperformed badly but when i switched to pods and targeted infantry they actually did pretty good even better than splinter cannons. Also pods are cheaper and are considered one weapon so you can tale a max of 1 mortal when enhancing...

Enhanced hexrifles are really good and they fill the empty spot of snipers in our army quite well... 2 haemonculi and 3 units of wracks equipped with hex can be a serious threat to lower toughness army HQs like orks and Tau and can occasionally also threaten some space marine characters... You wont be sniping Feiros with them but some captains can have a bad time against them

speaking of haemonculi, they are melee beasts now with electrocorosive whips wounding most infantry on a 3+

Drazhar on the other hand is meh and still kinda overcosted imo...

Raiders enhancing their disintegrators are really powerful and fun

The tantalus is really fun and quite powerful dealing 3 flat damage and wounding almost anything on a 2+ but is still ridiculously overcosted and dies as easily as ever if focused

so what are your thoughts and experiences with the new obsessions
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 07 2019, 04:19

I played EC+DT and Drazhar (I only lost b.c i had 2 slow players and only got to turn 3 and in ITC that a deal breaker, but they were new players and it was a local event so i didnt care).

I played Drazhar as my WL for all the games, he was able to single round a Battle wagon, 14 wounds to a stompa in 1 turn, kill a 5man Marine unit without trying, etc.. he for sure isnt worth the WL spot for GT levels, but for friend/local RTT he will work.

Venoms are for sure really good, but i think DT+MoM is the way to go, less chances of a MW and more wounds right away.

Raiders with DT was godly, i think i might try 7-9 of them next time.


I want to test out more, but my local is for sure a more AoS area now so its hard to get games out side of events (we do events all the time tho, but its never test games, they are always ITC)

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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 07 2019, 04:34

So far I've only tried out a coven, mainly some wracks and talos, with obsessive collectors and experimental creations.

I can say that oc is fairly gimmicky, but my god is it fun. My most notable use of it was a 5-man of wracks barely surviving combat from a charging unit of howling banshees, killing 2 in the return, bringing 3 wracks back, and then finishing off the unit next combat.

The strength bonus from ec was nice, but as amishprn86 mentioned, that can also be given with Urien. I have yet to try anything with dt, so I can't offer commentary on that route.

Overall, the new obsessions (other than dt) are nice, and can be used in niche situations, but otherwise I feel that PoF's survivablity typically outweighs the increase in sustain or damage.

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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 07 2019, 05:17

I’ve tried out the DT + EC combo in several games. DT Raiders may now be our most efficient anti-vehicle platforms when taken in sufficient numbers. Test of Skill flyers are also amazing at killing vehicles and pair nicely with DT. Both of these new Obsessions fill a crucial role as, at least in my games in 8th edition, fighting heavily mechanized armies has traditionally been an uphill battle. DT + EC Venoms are also very good at clearing infantry with the exception of anything with a 2+ save. That’s always been the bane of poison shooting and that hasn’t changed. Haywire Talos I’ve only used once and found them not quite as useful due to random number of shots and BS 4 on Talos. I think I may need to try 6-9 of them in a list though before making any firm judgments about their utility with DT as opposed to PoF.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 07 2019, 21:31

Test of Skill on Disintegrator Razorwings feels downright filthy.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 07 2019, 23:46

In my games three Test of Skill Razorwings easily pick up two light to medium vehicles per turn assuming they’re on their top bracket. The TOS Airwing coupled with DT Raiders can kill a Knight per turn without too much difficulty.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 07 2019, 23:56

I tried Artists of the Flesh and I found a concept that is amazing. Venom Spam.Artists, no Flyers no Ravagers for your list. I tried a full Drukhari list, a friend of mine an even better Drukhari+Harlequins list.
The concept is that you're extremely hard, expecially in the first turn. You can hide Venoms, you can keep them far from the oppo, and you're just offering T6 -1 to hit -1 damage veichles for the first blood.
My friend pairs it with just 6 Skyweavers who can go -2 to hit and 3++ after the first death.
You can't play Ravagers or flyers because the clue is keeping waste all the multiple damage firepower/meleepower of your oppo. You're basically playing only characters, Artists Transports (and Talos if you want, they work the same) and W1 infantry embarked (my fried was playing Quinns characters and 6 bikes just for the 44"+2D6 charge with no oW and tarpit everything he can on turn 1...but as said, those 6 bikes are nearly impossible to kill on T1 in your deploy zone).
In this marine/Centurion meta everyone is listing D2/3 weapons with low ap (think about the mirrors.too, Dark Technomancers..), and you're offering invul saves and -1 to damage. You're basically countering the meta.

Yes you sacrifice the offensive from DT etc, but you gain A LOT of hardness and board control. I played a Battalion of Artists with some.mercs for the extra Venoms, a ToS+Slashing wychcult with a lot of Wyches and blast pistols, and the Yncarne. My friend does quite the same, with kabals and BlackHeart on Venoms, plus vanguard Quinns (3 heroes+6 bikes) and the Yncarne.

I call this the new ""null deploy"" strategy.
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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 08 2019, 01:21

That sounds pretty interesting, I'm going to be playing a game with artists of flesh tomorrow, due to playing the 'narrow the search' mission, which makes invuls pretty meh. This just reinforces the decision.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 08 2019, 11:09

Even without the +1 Damage from their doctrine, three Imperial Fists Thunderfire Cannons will be able to take out a Venom in the first turn. Bear in mind they lose access to Lightning Fast Reactions as Covens, as well.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 08 2019, 16:46

Yep, and keep.in mind that those Venoms are with T6. 3 Thunderfire with a chap within 6" aren't sure to kill 1 single Venom.

Anwyay you can kill it. But how much firepower are you spending for 1 single expendable Venom? Besides, that list doesn't offer any good target. All of them are equally hard to kill, and sacrificable. Nothing to loose. Basically, with that list you're winning every trade of the game

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 08 2019, 21:26

@Burnage wrote:
Even without the +1 Damage from their doctrine, three Imperial Fists Thunderfire Cannons will be able to take out a Venom in the first turn. Bear in mind they lose access to Lightning Fast Reactions as Covens, as well.

Umm so? 3 Thunderfire cannons should, its 3 units totaling nearly 300pts shooting at 1 65pt unit.

Thats like saying 3 Venoms shooting at 10 guardsman will kill them... well yeah lol.


Also i consider it a waste 90% the time to make a venom an additional -1 to be hit when i have 3 Flyers or 3 Ravagers i'd rather use lightning fast on.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 08 2019, 21:31

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
Even without the +1 Damage from their doctrine, three Imperial Fists Thunderfire Cannons will be able to take out a Venom in the first turn. Bear in mind they lose access to Lightning Fast Reactions as Covens, as well.

Umm so? 3 Thunderfire cannons should, its 3 units totaling nearly 300pts shooting at 1 65pt unit.

Thats like saying 3 Venoms shooting at 10 guardsman will kill them... well yeah lol.


Also i consider it a waste 90% the time to make a venom an additional -1 to be hit when i have 3 Flyers or 3 Ravagers i'd rather use lightning fast on.

It sounded like part of Cerve's motivation was denying first blood/strike to the enemy, just pointing out that meta lists will still be able to get it against Artists of Flesh. Not a huge point - they're still a hell of a lot tougher than other vehicles against Marine gunlines - but worth noting.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 09 2019, 00:57

No, well, save the first blood all the time will be impossible, but sometimes it can be. Besides, it's a list that allows you to going second without losing so much.
Anyway I must point it again: never play Ravagers or Flyers in this archetype. If you do so, ypu're offering some fragile boats with some.other super durable Venoms, which is bad. The oppo will find pretty easy get the focus on the boats, ignoring Artists Transports. It is a Drukhari rock-passive list, quite the opposite of the more aggressive DarkTechnomancers archetype.


PS: if FW is allowed, the Tantalus is a great Artist too
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 11 2019, 23:04

Although not necessarily a new Obsession, I’ve been having a lot of fun and success with the new and improved Drazhar. The +1 to wound, ability to fight twice, and dmg2/4 attacks makes him a legit beat stick now. He is also surprisingly versatile also as he can clear hordes as well as killing elites and non-Knight vehicles if you give him Hatred Eternal. He may be the most pleasant surprise in PA so far.
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Aschen
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12 2019, 09:46

I have to say, between coven raiders, coven taloi, and wytch jets now, I dont feel ravagers are obligatory. I tried taking 5 man wracks in raiders, and then blackheart kabs in another battalion, also in the raiders. It performed well. I was playing casually though, and ended up throwing things into my opponents Guilliman just so he didnt get dscouraged and stop playing
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12 2019, 10:21

I didnt take Ravagers at my last event and didnt notice they were gone. Sadly i only did bad b.c 2 players slow played me and only got 3 turns in. But the point stands, i didnt need them.

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 12 2019, 15:25

Ravagers are definitely still good, but I agree I don't feel the strong need for them anymore. Haywire talos with DT do some serious heavy lifting against vehicles, I've only tried 2 in a list so far but I feel like if I took say 6 they'd fill a lot of my anti-vehicle role. I'm certainly glad that's given us a bit more list flexility, ravagers are not the first thing I go to add to my list anymore.

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dygurren
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 27 2019, 12:19

@amishprn86 wrote:
I played EC+DT and Drazhar (I only lost b.c i had 2 slow players and only got to turn 3 and in ITC that a deal breaker, but they were new players and it was a local event so i didnt care).

I played Drazhar as my WL for all the games, he was able to single round a Battle wagon, 14 wounds to a stompa in 1 turn, kill a 5man Marine unit without trying, etc.. he for sure isnt worth the WL spot for GT levels, but for friend/local RTT he will work.

Venoms are for sure really good, but i think DT+MoM is the way to go, less chances of a MW and more wounds right away.

Raiders with DT was godly, i think i might try 7-9 of them next time.


I want to test out more, but my local is for sure a more AoS area now so its hard to get games out side of events (we do events all the time tho, but its never test games, they are always ITC)

I still have yet to play any test games with DT+MoM combo. Can you elaborate on how Raiders would become so good compared to a Ravager?
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 27 2019, 12:39

@dygurren wrote:
Can you elaborate on how Raiders would become so good compared to a Ravager?

So math wise, the ravager is still the best anti-infantry and and anti-tank per point. The Techno Raider however is very close behind.
Raiders do roughly the same amount of damage to a Rhino as Ravagers (13.6 damage from 3 ravagers vs 12.5 damage from 5 raiders)

The advantage is that they can be taken in addition to the ravagers, so there's no need to drop firepower, and they offer some MSU options: spread out for board coverage; and loosing a raider only drops 1 gun rather than 3 from a ravager.

There's also some choice targets where the 3 damage comes in handy. GSC Abs, Marine Aggressors, Dreadnoughts with the -1 damage strat, Wave serpents

I'm a big fan of them, as my local meta is quite vehicle and marine heavy.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 27 2019, 13:06

DT Raiders are definitely an alternative, but on paper I'm struggling to see them outright replacing BH Ravagers. The Raiders are only a bit worse against vehicles, but they're substantially weaker against Marines (see: the Custom Obs. Mathammer thread) and God knows the meta is flooded with MEQ right now.

I know I keep being down on the new Obsessions but it's because I'm really struggling to see them as better than the original ones, especially after this FAQ. Test of Skill Airwings seem like the only option that's clearly an improvement (maybe Artists of Flesh vehicles as well?), and in some cases even that might not be worth it compared to the old standby of a Black Heart Airwing.
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 27 2019, 14:11

DT Raiders are great at killing Marine heavy hitters like Aggressors, Inceptors, Centurions, and Vehicles. Because they’re wounding Aggressors and Cents on threes instead of fours and vehicles on fours instead of five. They are bad at killing general Primaris infantry spam like tons of Intercessors though. That’s where Ravagers shine. I’ve run DT Raiders to complement my Ravagers and it seems to work well against general semi-competitive Marine lists.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 27 2019, 17:26

DT raiders are amazing, after 2 games with them. I think i'm taking 5 every game now.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 27 2019, 18:31

DT Raiders are not a sobsitute, they are a complement of BH Ravagers (or even FL Ravagers, heck, Stealthy it's a thing now). They add valuable firepower to units that normally doesn't have it (Transports) helping you to saturate the oppo with valuable targets (before it was 3 Ravagers and 3 Razor, now is 3 Rava 3 Razor/void and 4-5 Raiders).

And their shots are granular. You can put 3 damage on one Centurion, then shoot with damage 1, then pass to the second Raider, etc etc. Because they shoot one by one you're never wasting your shoot being overkill.

Yeah I love them too
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 27 2019, 19:52

Yep and now they pose a real threat, moreso in some situations than a Ravager,w hen you get +1 to wound and 3D, 1 Raider can kill 3 wound units, sure its 1/3 the shots, but wounding on 3+ over 4+ and 1 shot kills 3 wound units, or 2 kills 6 wound units. Compare to Ravagers that are not 4+ to wound and need 2 or 3 wounds through, 33/50 % more wounds needed and 16.67% more shots needed.

1 Ravager kills 1 T5, 3+, 3W model, with a 50% chance to deal 2 wound to the next model, where 1 Raider kills 1 same model with a 10% chance to hurt a second (so really a good chance to kill 1 model). (PS without rr's), with an Archon the Ravager does 2 dead models, but now that an extra 70pt Aura, yes it works for 3, but that means each Ravager is now 150pts. Sure you have to take Heroes, but 1 her for 3 Ravagers for no real CP isnt what a call a net, IMO its a tax.

For 80pts vs 125pts (150pts) thats really good. Each unit is now better at different units. Ravagers will destroy primaris were raiders will go after Aggressors, centurions, etc..


I took 6 to a game and 3 Ravagers, my opponent shot at the Ravagers and Talos turn 1, but my Raiders is what won the game funny enough.

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PostSubject: Re: thoughts after some games with new obss   thoughts after some games with new obss I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2019, 19:42

I see that everyone is very excited by Dark Technomancers, but personally I find it very dangerous in the marine meta, as if you go second you will likely loose, 4+ vehicles (one single IF heavy Bolger can kill a venom).

Since Phoenix Rising has dropped I started playing venoms, taloi and Reapers as Artisans of Flesh, and I’m really positively impressed by it. Reapers became Wave Serpent level of toughness, and venoms cannot be one-shot by Eldar Flyers, autocannons of IF heavy bolsters anymore. For the taloi, statistically the -1D is better than 4++ against everyone weapon with damage 2-4, so almost all what will target it.

Strongly recommended.

I must not though, that I play DE + Harlequins, so I was not using the vexation mask anyway, as the harlequins no overwatch relic is plain better.

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