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AlCorps
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 16 2019, 17:16

@Dalamar wrote:
I think you forgot to add the +1 damage for Technomancers
I did indeed, fixed now.

Thinking more about crimson hunters, the defensive and offensive craftworld and exarch powers become very interesting.
It's one thing to compare how tough the plane can be, or how much output it can have.
The tricky and more realistic scenario is maximising toughness while still taking an improved output trait. I don't think this can be fairly mathammered.

I did up the defensive powers. I won't post the table, but the answer is that Aloitoc always comes out the best, except when facing a BS2+ -4 ap weapon (does such a weapon really exist in large numbers?), where the 5++ exarch power comes in more useful.
Aloitoc is particularly important against BS4+, cutting damage by a third. (think Tau, Smasha Gunz, IG tanks)
Not taken into account was the 5+++ against mortal wounds, which can also be useful if your local meta is using smite spam or haywire.

The best offensive combination is "reroll a single hit and wound roll", ignore cover craftworld, and Ignore Heavy penalty.
Why "Ignore Heavy penalty" instead of the other exarch abilities? You can get ignore cover from craftworld, and Ignore Heavy penalty works against all targets. +1 Damage Against Fly is slightly better if you know you are fighting flyers.

So, some options for 'optimal balanced' CHE might look like:
- Aloitoc, Ignore Heavy penalty
- +1 Cover, "reroll a single hit and wound roll", and 5++

Some situational builds might look like:
- Super tough: +1 Cover, 5++, 5+++ against mortals
- Kill flyers: "reroll a single hit and wound roll", Ignore Cover, +1 Damage Against Fly.

A note on "reroll a single hit and wound roll".
This feels like the best output trait, but is almost impossible to math correctly using just excel.
It would have to be simmed, firing 1 weapon first and deciding whether to use a reroll, then the other weapon, using the reroll if still available.

All of this is further complicated when regular Crimson Hunters and Hemlocks are included in the flyer wing, different traits are more/less optimal for them.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 16 2019, 18:56

Interesting, I would think that Ignore Heavy would be better in almost all cases for damage, especially as your damage profile degrades from enemies shooting back.

The reason why I asked is because of the new meta consisting of Iron Hand Repulsors or Stormhawk Interceptors. Stormhawks are especially worrisome because of their -2 to hit them and +1 to hit us, which means Alaitoc CHExs are 4s to hit with ignore heavy with re-roll 1s if we keep Marksman's Eye. They would in-turn be 4s to hit us, 5s with the strategem on a single target.

I mean, I think we're kinda boned againts IH Stormhawks anyway, but its worth knowing what our chances are.

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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 17 2019, 15:55

@AlCorps wrote:
@Dalamar wrote:
I think you forgot to add the +1 damage for Technomancers
I did indeed, fixed now.

That's great. but that was just an example from your previous post you fixed the techomancers vs T7 but you need to add the +1 damage to all the other calculations. All the other categories are missing the +1 damage.
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Sess
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 25 2019, 14:41

Not sure if anyone talked about it yet, but the kabal trait for the cursed grief style morale buff where only 1 model can flee could be pretty good. We could run foot kabal and/or large squads of kabalite warriors and not have to fear losing them to morale. Maybe along with the poison buff tactic for more damage poison weapons.

Edit: whoops meant to post this in the other tactics discussion thread sorry about that.
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AlCorps
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 05 2019, 15:36

Recovering from the onslaught that was Phoenix Rising FAQ and Chapter Approved, we search through the ashes for some more math!

This time I've done a wide variety of units against a particular target, and ranked them from best to worst.
The unit count is roughly 400 points worth. The damage-per-point is the normalized damage done per point spent on that unit.
As expected, anti-tank units are bad against infantry, and better against vehicles.
There are some very odd results for some units, so remember to look at whether a unit is actually practical for your army, not just the output. The main culprit here is the Techno Cronos, who is now the most lethal unit in the codex, at 8" range...

The best way to use this is probably to compare two units you are thinking about, and see which one ranks higher.
First post is against infantry targets.

TLDR:
Black Heart ravagers are still great
Techno Venoms are great until you reach 2+ saves
The flyers are average.

Short Hand:
BH = Black Heart
Techno = Dark Technomancer
Master = Master of Mutagen
ToS = Test f Skill
PoF = Prophets of Flesh

TargetUnitWeaponDamage Per Point
t3 5+ 1w5 Techno CronosSpirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex0.051851852
4 Techno Liq TalosTwin Liquifier + Haywire0.051756885
6 Techno Master VenomCannon + Rifle0.051282051
3 BH RavagerDisintegrators0.038888889
3 ToS RazorwingDisintegrators + Necrotoxin0.033716475
9 SkyweaversHaywire0.032407407
2 ToS Void RavenDark Scythes + Shatterfield0.024925178
3 ToS RazorwingDark Lances + Necrotoxin0.022988506
5 Techno RaiderDisintegrators0.020833333
2 ToS Void RavenVoid Lances + Shatterfield0.018191171
3 Techno Reaper Stationary2d6 mode0.017283951
3 BH RavagerDark Lances0.016203704
4 Techno TalosHaywire0.014172336
3 Techno Reaper Moving2d6 mode0.012962963
4 PoF TalosHaywire0.011337868
5 Techno RaiderDark Lances0.006944444

TargetUnitWeaponDamage Per Point
t4 3+ 1w3 BH RavagerDisintegrators0.032407407
5 Techno CronosSpirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex0.025925926
6 Techno Master VenomCannon + Rifle0.025641026
4 Techno Liq TalosTwin Liquifier + Haywire0.025641026
3 ToS RazorwingDisintegrators + Necrotoxin0.022988506
2 ToS Void RavenDark Scythes + Shatterfield0.019753086
5 Techno RaiderDisintegrators0.017361111
3 BH RavagerDark Lances0.016203704
3 ToS RazorwingDark Lances + Necrotoxin0.01532567
9 SkyweaversHaywire0.014583333
2 ToS Void RavenVoid Lances + Shatterfield0.01301908
3 Techno Reaper Stationaryd6 mode0.012962963
3 Techno Reaper Movingd6 mode0.009722222
5 Techno RaiderDark Lances0.006944444
4 Techno TalosHaywire0.006802721
4 PoF TalosHaywire0.005102041

TargetUnitWeaponDamage Per Point
t4 3+ 2w3 BH RavagerDisintegrators0.064814815
5 Techno CronosSpirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex0.051851852
6 Techno Master VenomCannon + Rifle0.051282051
4 Techno Liq TalosTwin Liquifier + Haywire0.051282051
3 ToS RazorwingDisintegrators + Necrotoxin0.038314176
5 Techno RaiderDisintegrators0.034722222
2 ToS Void RavenDark Scythes + Shatterfield0.0332211
3 BH RavagerDark Lances0.032407407
3 Techno Reaper Stationaryd6 mode0.025925926
3 ToS RazorwingDark Lances + Necrotoxin0.022988506
2 ToS Void RavenVoid Lances + Shatterfield0.019753086
3 Techno Reaper Movingd6 mode0.019444444
9 SkyweaversHaywire0.014583333
5 Techno RaiderDark Lances0.013888889
4 Techno TalosHaywire0.013605442
4 PoF TalosHaywire0.005102041

TargetUnitWeaponDamage Per Point
t5 2+ 4w5 Techno CronosSpirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex0.058333333
3 Techno Reaper Stationaryd6 mode0.043209877
3 BH RavagerDisintegrators0.038888889
3 BH RavagerDark Lances0.037808642
4 Techno Liq TalosTwin Liquifier + Haywire0.035612536
5 Techno RaiderDisintegrators0.033333333
3 Techno Reaper Movingd6 mode0.032407407
6 Techno Master VenomCannon + Rifle0.025641026
5 Techno RaiderDark Lances0.023148148
2 ToS Void RavenDark Scythes + Shatterfield0.0221474
3 ToS RazorwingDisintegrators + Shatterfield0.021569462
3 ToS RazorwingDark Lances + Shatterfield0.021058606
2 ToS Void RavenVoid Lances + Shatterfield0.019902731
4 Techno TalosHaywire0.006802721
9 SkyweaversHaywire0.006481481
4 PoF TalosHaywire0.002267574

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AlCorps
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 05 2019, 15:41

Next is the vehicle targets

TLDR:
Dark Technomancer units really shine here
Haywire is obviously good
The flyers are still average
The Techno Reaper does a lot of damage here

TargetUnitWeaponDamage Per Point
t7 3+ 10w3 Techno Reaper Stationaryd6 mode0.058333333
4 Techno Liq TalosTwin Liquifier + Haywire0.052231719
5 Techno CronosSpirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex0.051851852
9 SkyweaversHaywire0.048611111
3 BH RavagerDark Lances0.04537037
3 Techno Reaper Movingd6 mode0.04375
3 ToS RazorwingDark Lances + Shatterfield0.033971903
2 ToS Void RavenDark Scythes + Shatterfield0.0332211
3 BH RavagerDisintegrators0.032407407
5 Techno RaiderDisintegrators0.03125
5 Techno RaiderDark Lances0.03125
4 Techno TalosHaywire0.030612245
3 ToS RazorwingDisintegrators + Shatterfield0.030140485
2 ToS Void RavenVoid Lances + Shatterfield0.029854097
6 Techno Master VenomCannon + Rifle0.022792023
4 PoF TalosHaywire0.017006803

TargetUnitWeaponDamage Per Point
t8 3+ 10w5 Techno CronosSpirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex0.051851852
4 Techno Liq TalosTwin Liquifier + Haywire0.049382716
3 Techno Reaper Stationaryd6 mode0.046666667
9 SkyweaversHaywire0.04375
3 Techno Reaper Movingd6 mode0.035
3 BH RavagerDark Lances0.034027778
3 BH RavagerDisintegrators0.032407407
5 Techno RaiderDisintegrators0.03125
3 ToS RazorwingDisintegrators + Shatterfield0.029022989
2 ToS Void RavenVoid Lances + Shatterfield0.028872054
3 ToS RazorwingDark Lances + Shatterfield0.027490421
4 Techno TalosHaywire0.027210884
2 ToS Void RavenDark Scythes + Shatterfield0.026851852
5 Techno RaiderDark Lances0.025
6 Techno Master VenomCannon + Rifle0.022792023
4 PoF TalosHaywire0.015306122

TargetUnitWeaponDamage Per Point
t8 3+ 5++ 10w5 Techno CronosSpirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex0.051851852
4 Techno Liq TalosTwin Liquifier + Haywire0.049382716
9 SkyweaversHaywire0.04375
3 Techno Reaper Stationaryd6 mode0.031111111
4 Techno TalosHaywire0.027210884
3 BH RavagerDisintegrators0.025925926
5 Techno RaiderDisintegrators0.025
3 ToS RazorwingDisintegrators + Shatterfield0.024425287
3 Techno Reaper Movingd6 mode0.023333333
6 Techno Master VenomCannon + Rifle0.022792023
3 BH RavagerDark Lances0.022685185
2 ToS Void RavenVoid Lances + Shatterfield0.021015713
3 ToS RazorwingDark Lances + Shatterfield0.020338442
2 ToS Void RavenDark Scythes + Shatterfield0.019668911
5 Techno RaiderDark Lances0.016666667
4 PoF TalosHaywire0.015306122
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DingWop
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 05 2019, 19:34

Potential side note here: 5man Haywire scourge, still ok?

T7 3+ 10w 0.048 dmg/point
T8 3+ 10w 0.042 dmg/point
T8 3+ 5++10w 0.042 dmg/point

good offence on the scourge, but if I had to choose three 5man scourge and 2 BH ravagers, it's hard not to take the ravagers.
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DingWop
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 05 2019, 19:47

And no matter how much I want it to be a thing, dark lance scourge still not a thing.

Moving
T7 3+ 10w 0.039 dmg/point
T8 3+ 10w 0.019 dmg/point
T8 3+ 5++10w 0.013 dmg/point

Stationary
T7 3+ 10w 0.052 dmg/point
T8 3+ 10w 0.039 dmg/point
T8 3+ 5++10w 0.026 dmg/point
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 05 2019, 20:05

Are those with the new Point costs? I saw you said with CA just making sure.

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DingWop
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 05 2019, 21:05

My numbers were with scourge at 12 pts, dark lance at 15pts, haywire at 8pts
did not include the shardcarbine damage in any of the numbers.
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Gelmir
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 08:49

I am really surprised by the Cronos results!

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 13:22

Yeah me too.... But its one of those units that needs is extremely swingy and it tries to be support, anti-horde and anti-elite at the same time, so while it looks good you wont have that good of a result in actual play b.c you still need to pick 1 target do to its small range (8-18") I have 3 of them and tried them out a few times and everytime it was odd b.c the math says they should do X damage, but with 2 random D6's on the profiles, 1 being a flamer so you need to be in melee range, you really just shoot 1 weapon for 1 or 2 turns at best, you need them right on the front line to get full use out of them.

I will try them again now that they are cheaper (15pts for a unit) and in DT it might be fun. I always hated that their WS is a 4+ tho.

Finally, i always played it, 3 Cronos gets 3 Probes you could get 3 Heals, but i'm not 100% sure if that is how it actually works, we play at my local a little bit of RAI for some units, what is the actual proper way to play it?

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Rodi Sikni
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 19:11

Please, could you add the calculations for tecno master venom with double cannon?
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Sarcron
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2019, 20:15

I was going to say that yes, you would definitely get three heals for three cronos, because why wouldn't you? But yeah, looking at the rule it's intentionally written as "if a cronos with a spirit probe inflicted any unsaved wounds this fight phase, pick one drukhari unit within 6" and..."

It's an odd way of writing it, but, actually, I would say that yes, you'd get three heals. Each spirit probe is an individual rule- so if ANY cronos on the board does stuff in melee, ALL cronos get to heal something within 6". Perhaps a rule oversight? Eitherway, that line of questioning led me to a nice TIL.

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Pippolele
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07 2019, 13:48

Great analysis!
Thank you! I love digging through numbers myself

Does your analysis take into account the wasted excess damage weapons like dark lances loose when damage exceeds a model's wound count?
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07 2019, 14:11

@Pippolele wrote:

Does your analysis take into account the wasted excess damage weapons like dark lances loose when damage exceeds a model's wound count?

This is all using the new CA points values. Damage is capped at the number of wounds on the target (So against Primaris Marines, the max damage is 2)

What I didn't account for is wasted spill over from multiple shots hitting the Centurions.
So the Techno Raiders are always doing 3 damage, but in reality in could be 3 damage, then 1 to kill the model, then 3 again, then 1 to kill the next model. Similar situation for the Cronos.
In practice, this can be mitigated by shooting a Techno Raider first, then a ravager (or something else) to kill the model, then the next Techno Raider, etc.

As mentioned above, the Techno Cronos and Techono Liquifier Talos are complete outliers and should not be taken as "the best"; they only work in large numbers, in perfect conditions, when within 8" range.
To further exaggerate this, I think I included the points for a Spirit Probe on the Cronos, which they may not need if you just want to shoot, so the price could be even cheaper.
This it is a great way to highlight what happens when you combine "+1 to wound" abilities with "on a 6+, do X" abilities. Probably why all new proc-based special rules are on unmodified dice rolls.
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07 2019, 14:23


@AlCorps wrote:

This is all using the new CA points values. Damage is capped at the number of wounds on the target (So against Primaris Marines, the max damage is 2)

excellent

@AlCorps wrote:

What I didn't account for is wasted spill over from multiple shots hitting the Centurions.
So the Techno Raiders are always doing 3 damage, but in reality in could be 3 damage, then 1 to kill the model, then 3 again, then 1 to kill the next model. Similar situation for the Cronos.

That's indeed my second concern and something that I would want to see incorporated

@AlCorps wrote:

In practice, this can be mitigated by shooting a Techno Raider first, then a ravager (or something else) to kill the model, then the next Techno Raider, etc.
Sorry, don't understand.

@AlCorps wrote:

As mentioned above, the Techno Cronos and Techono Liquifier Talos are complete outliers and should not be taken as "the best"; they only work in large numbers, in perfect conditions, when within 8" range.
To further exaggerate this, I think I included the points for a Spirit Probe on the Cronos, which they may not need if you just want to shoot, so the price could be even cheaper.

Understood. Thanks

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Pippolele
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07 2019, 14:33

Are you planning to add other units to this list like:
Tantalus
Reavers
Reavers with blasters
?


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Pippolele
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07 2019, 16:18

@AlCorps wrote:
I agree, maybe 10 would be a more realistic number.
In horde vs horde (ie plaguebearers of tzaangors), getting a large front on the charge is possible.

You could simply run your numbers based on 10 model wych units rather than 20.
then it is possible to immagine all 10 of them making it within 1" and you wuoldn't loose out on 5 or even 10 slashing impact rolls.

10 model wych units are a thing after all.


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Pippolele
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07 2019, 16:35

@DingWop wrote:
Potential side note here:  5man Haywire scourge, still ok?  

T7 3+ 10w  0.048 dmg/point
T8 3+ 10w  0.042 dmg/point
T8 3+ 5++10w  0.042 dmg/point

Indeed:

Against T7 3+ 10w thay rank:
5th overall
3rd for distance damage (>8")
1st if you only consider codex options and distance damage (>8")

Against T8 3+ 10w thay rank:
5th overall
3rd for distance damage (>8")
1st if you only consider codex options and distance damage (>8")

T8 3+ 5++ 10w
4th overall
2nd for distance damage (>8")
1st if you only consider codex options and distance damage (>8")[/b]

@DingWop wrote:

good offence on the scourge, but if I had to choose three 5man scourge and 2 BH ravagers, it's hard not to take the ravagers.  

It also depends on the rest of your army:
Maybe you are going a vehicle denial strategy?
Maybe you are already maxed out on ravagers?
Maybe you are trying to fill out an outrider detachment?
Maybe you have no kabal detachments?
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Pippolele
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 08 2019, 00:20

@AlCorps wrote:
Venoms
Included is a venom from each possible (useful) combination.
Flayed Skull, Poison Tongue, Black Heart with Writ, Toxin Crafters, and a combination of the 3 new Coven obsessions: Dark Technomancers, Experimental Creations, Masters of Mutagens
I've also included a column for the kabalite factions when a venom has 5 warriors on board. This gives them an unfair advantage over coven, but is a much more likely use case.
The math on these was quite messy, please do have a look to make sure everything adds up.

NOTE:
I'm going to edit this post to add the full tables as I write them, please be patient.

The Winners
This is split into 1W and 2W lists. The criteria was a marine in cover, so 2+ save, 3+ for flayed skull, and an extra flayed skull against a 2+ armour save.
This order could change with other armour saves, but since marines are the all the rage these days, I've chosen them as the target.

For 1W models

  1. Flayed Skull /w 5 warriors ignoring cover
  2. Black Heart /w 5 warriors
  3. Flayed Skull /w 5 warriors
  4. Flayed Skull ignoring cover
  5. Poison Tongue /w 5 warriors
  6. Toxin Crafters /5 warriors
  7. Techno Experimental
  8. Techno Mutagen
  9. Experimental Mutagen
  10. Black Heart
  11. Flayed Skull
  12. Poison Tongue
  13. Toxin Crafters


For 2W models

  1. Flayed Skull /w 5 warriors ignoring cover
  2. Techno Experimental
  3. Techno Mutagen
  4. Toxin Crafters /5 warriors
  5. Black Heart /w 5 warriors
  6. Flayed Skull /w 5 warriors
  7. Flayed Skull ignoring cover
  8. Poison Tongue /w 5 warriors
  9. Experimental Mutagen
  10. Black Heart
  11. Toxin Crafters
  12. Flayed Skull
  13. Poison Tongue


Conclusion
Flayed Skulls ability to ignore cover is huge on a 3+ save.
Obviously, venoms with 5 warriors inside perform better than coven.
Black Heart looks good at first due to the Writ rerolls, but is not a common set up.

Just looking at the venom and not the passengers, the new coven obsessions perform very well.
Against 2W targets, Dark Technomancy Coven and Toxin Crafters Kabal do much better. The empty Coven venoms even outperform Kabals with the extra warriors inside.

If you're not sure what to pick, maybe just stick with Flayed Skull.
If you expect to face a lot of primaris or monsters, seriously consider the new Coven options.

1W, 2+ save
UnitShotsHitsNormal Hits6's to HitWoundsUnsavedDamageVenom plus 5 Warriors
Flayed Skull107.773.8880.6480.6481.296
Poison Tongue106.6663.8880.6480.6481.296
Black Heart107.7774.5370.7560.7561.311
Toxin Crafters106.6663.3330.5550.5551.111
Techno Experimental106.6665.5550.9250.925
Techno Mutagen106.66651.66650.8330.833
Experimental Mutagen106.66651.66650.8330.833

3+ 1W
UnitShotsHitsNormal Hits6's to HitWoundsUnsavedDamageVenom plus 5 Warriors
Flayed Skull107.7773.8881.2961.2962.592
Poison Tongue106.6663.8881.2961.2962.592
Black Heart Venom107.7774.5371.5121.5122.623
Toxin Crafters106.6663.3331.1111.1112.222
Techno Experimental106.6665.5551.8511.851
Techno Mutagen106.66651.66651.6661.666
Experimental Mutagen106.66651.66651.6661.666

2+ 2W
UnitShotsHitsNormal Hits6's to hitNormal WoundsExtra D WoundsNormal UnsavedExtra D UnsavedTotal DamageTransport plus passengers
Flayed Skull107.7773.8880.6480.6481.296
Poison Tongue106.6663.8880.6480.6481.296
Black Heart107.7774.5370.7560.7561.311
Toxin Craft106.6662.2221.1110.3700.1850.7401.481
Techno Experimental106.6665.5550.9251.851
Techno Mutagen106.66651.66650.8331.666
Experimental Mutagen106.66651.66650.8330.833

3+ 2W
UnitShotsHitsNormal Hits6's to hitNormal WoundsExtra D WoundsNormal UnsavedExtra D UnsavedTotal DamageTransport plus passengers
Flayed Skull107.7773.8881.2961.2962.592
Poison Tongue106.6663.8881.2961.2962.592
Black Heart107.7774.5371.5121.5122.623
Toxin Craft106.6662.2221.1110.7400.3701.4812.962
Techno Experimental106.6665.5551.8513.703
Techno Mutagen106.66651.66651.6663.333
Experimental Mutagen106.66651.66651.6661.666


Kabal venoms have a different to hit success rate based on their affiliation:

For BH you count an archon for both writ and overlord auras - OK
For the other Kabals however you don't count the overlord aura of a hypothetical archon.

I think If you include the archon in BH you should include it in the calculations for the other Kabals as well.

Passengers:
I am pondering whether to analyse their fire output limited to 4 models as the 5th one will almost always carry a blaster and be targeting vehicles. What do you think?

Finally we could also analyse the scenario of a coven venom with kabal warriors as passengers (poison tongue and toxin craft come to mind)
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HERO
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 29 2019, 23:08

A lot of math in this thread, but what's the TLDR for recommendations based on the above mathhammering on the ideal build vs. a marine armored-soaked meta?

Seems to be:
> Play a lot of DT Raiders w/ Dissies
> Play Test of Skill Razorwings w/ Dissies
> BH + Ravagers still good, but that's about it for Kabal
> Unless.. you're fielding all Flayed Skull Venoms w/ Warriors inside

Is that accurate?
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Pippolele
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 26 2020, 21:58

Adding to the excellent work of @AICorps I have analyzed the following units against vehicles:

-Tantalus: no bonus, BlackHeart/Living Muse, Dark Technomancers
-Archon with Blaster: BlackHeart/Living Muse, embarked (no bonus)
-Reavers: with Blasters or Heat Lance, Test of Skill or no obsession
-Scourges with Haywire
-5 Warriors with a Blaster: (no obsessions)

Brief analysis at the end of the tables:

TargetUnitWeaponDamage Per Point
t7 3+ 10w3 Techno Reaper Stationaryd6 mode0.058333333
4 Techno Liq TalosTwin Liquifier + Haywire0.052231719
5 Techno CronosSpirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex0.051851852
Haywire ScourgesHaywire + shard carabine0.0495169
9 SkyweaversHaywire0.048611111
3 BH RavagerDark Lances0.04537037
3 Techno Reaper Movingd6 mode0.04375
DT TantalusPulse Disintegrators0.041666
5 Warriors with Blaster4 shard carabines + 1 Blaster0.039401
BH Archon with BlasterBlaster0.0357649
3 ToS RazorwingDark Lances + Shatterfield0.033971903
2 ToS Void RavenDark Scythes + Shatterfield0.0332211
3 BH RavagerDisintegrators0.032407407
ToS Reavers with Blaster2 shardrifles + Blaster0.0321937
5 Techno RaiderDisintegrators0.03125
5 Techno RaiderDark Lances0.03125
4 Techno TalosHaywire0.030612245
BH TantalusPulse Disintegrators0.0302469
3 ToS RazorwingDisintegrators + Shatterfield0.030140485
2 ToS Void RavenVoid Lances + Shatterfield0.029854097
ToS Reavers with Heat LanceShardrifles + Heat Lance0.0273024
Archon (embarked) with BlasterBlaster0.0262762
Reavers with Blaster2 shardrifles + 1 Blaster0.0262108
6 Techno Master VenomCannon + Rifle0.022792023
no bonus TantalusPulse Disintegrators0.0222222
Reavers with Heat Lance2 shardrifles + 1 Heat Lance0.0190246
4 PoF TalosHaywire0.017006803

TargetUnitWeaponDamage Per Point
t8 3+ 10w5 Techno CronosSpirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex0.051851852
4 Techno Liq TalosTwin Liquifier + Haywire0.049382716
3 Techno Reaper Stationaryd6 mode0.046666667
Haywire Scourges1 Shard Carabine and 4 Highwires0.0446859
9 SkyweaversHaywire0.04375
3 Techno Reaper Movingd6 mode0.035
3 BH RavagerDark Lances0.034027778
DT TantalusPulse Disintegrators0.0333333
3 BH RavagerDisintegrators0.032407407
5 Warriors with Blaster4 shardrifes +1 Blaster0.0311268
5 Techno RaiderDisintegrators0.03125
ToS Reavers with Heat Lanceshardrifes +Heat Lance0.0297716
3 ToS RazorwingDisintegrators + Shatterfield0.029022989
2 ToS Void RavenVoid Lances + Shatterfield0.028872054
ToS Reavers with Blastersshardrifes + Blaster0.0284900
3 ToS RazorwingDark Lances + Shatterfield0.027490421
4 Techno TalosHaywire0.027210884
2 ToS Void RavenDark Scythes + Shatterfield0.026851852
BH Archon BlasterBlaster0.0268236
5 Techno RaiderDark Lances0.025
6 Techno Master VenomCannon + Rifle0.022792023
BH TantalusPulse Disintegrators0.0226851
Reavers with BlastersShardrifles + Blaster0.0202279
Archon (embarked) with BlasterBlaster0.0197072
Reavers with Heat LanceShardrifles + Heat Lance0.019024
no bonus TantalusPulse Disintegrators0.0166666
4 PoF TalosHaywire0.015306122
TargetUnitWeaponDamage Per Point
t8 3+ 5++ 10w5 Techno CronosSpirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex0.051851852
4 Techno Liq TalosTwin Liquifier + Haywire0.049382716
Haywire Scourges1 Shardcarabine + 4 Haywires0.0446859
9 SkyweaversHaywire0.04375
3 Techno Reaper Stationaryd6 mode0.031111111
4 Techno TalosHaywire0.027210884
DT TantalusPulse Disintegrators0.0266666
3 BH RavagerDisintegrators0.025925926
5 Techno RaiderDisintegrators0.025
3 ToS RazorwingDisintegrators + Shatterfield0.024425287
3 Techno Reaper Movingd6 mode0.023333333
5 Warriors with Blaster4 Shardrifles + 1 Blaster0.0228526
6 Techno Master VenomCannon + Rifle0.022792023
3 BH RavagerDark Lances0.022685185
ToS Reavers with Heat LanceShardrifles + Heat Lance0.0214938
2 ToS Void RavenVoid Lances + Shatterfield0.021015713
ToS Reavers with BlastersShardrifles + Blaster0.0205128
3 ToS RazorwingDark Lances + Shatterfield0.020338442
2 ToS Void RavenDark Scythes + Shatterfield0.019668911
BH TantalusPulse Disintegrators0.0181481
BH Archon BlasterBlaster0.0178824
5 Techno RaiderDark Lances0.016666667
4 PoF TalosHaywire0.015306122
Reavers with BlastersShardrifles + Blaster0.014245
Reavers with LanceShardrifles + Heat Lance0.0135061
no bonus TantalusPulse Disintegrators0.0133333
Archon (embarked) with BlasterBlaster0.0131381
Brief Analysis:

-Haywire Scourges are our most efficient vehicle hunting unit at a distance (especially against ++ saves)

-I won’t miss Blaster Archons

-I won’t be taking Reavers for their Blasters although if I have to, I would play them with a Test of Skill obsession: Heat Lances don’t even shine at half distance.

-A Dark Technomancer Tantalus is as point efficient as 3 Blackheart Ravagers.
It is not worth playing it outside of Dark Technomancers. (not even with full BH Archon support)


Last edited by Pippolele on Thu Feb 27 2020, 20:48; edited 1 time in total
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 27 2020, 17:05

I don't wanna be "that guy" who says just take skyweavers...but if we are talking purley statistically here, I think it is worth mentioning haywire scourge are blown out of the park by skyweavers. 2 skyweavers is about the same number of shots at 4 scourge, with a little less reliability and that's before considering they are tougher, faster, and have a good melee attack.

The point on a dark technomancer tantalus is very interesting though. Alone, I would not take DT just for the tantalus, but that's before considering you could throw some raiders in that detachment so you're looking at a tantalus plus say 4-5 raiders, all with DT, PLUS haywire talos. That is a coven list with some actual good shooting, I'd look at filling out that list with a bunch of wracks, maybe a cheap kabal battalion for cps and warriors to ride in the raiders.

One small point on reavers with heat lances. I actually do find them appealing, not because heat lances are particularly good vs vehicles, but because they are very good against multi-wound infantry with high armor. Particularly thinking of centurions, no invul makes that ap-5 super tasty. Plus if reavers survive later into the game (granted not super likely..) heat lances make great character snipers, once screens are cleared out reavers have the movement to put them right next to a character for some sniping. I'd still take them with test of skill because if there's no multi-wound infantry to deal with, yeah I want them to at least not be wounding vehicles on 5s.

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Pippolele
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread   Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 27 2020, 20:14

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
I don't wanna be "that guy" who says just take skyweavers...but if we are talking purley statistically here, I think it is worth mentioning haywire scourge are blown out of the park by skyweavers. 2 skyweavers is about the same number of shots at 4 scourge, with a little less reliability and that's before considering they are tougher, faster, and have a good melee attack.

I think you certainly have a point about Skyweavers.
Scourges have the advantage of fitting in just about any drukhari detachment whereas Skyweavers require you to invest in a Harlequin detachment which might not be possible or require additional units as a tax.
Finally I see people preferring scourges over Skyweavers whenever they are trying to go for a vehicle denial strategy (e.g. all infantry horde)

@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
The point on a dark technomancer tantalus is very interesting though. Alone, I would not take DT just for the tantalus, but that's before considering you could throw some raiders in that detachment so you're looking at a tantalus plus say 4-5 raiders, all with DT, PLUS haywire talos. That is a coven list with some actual good shooting, I'd look at filling out that list with a bunch of wracks, maybe a cheap kabal battalion for cps and warriors to ride in the raiders.

That's precisely how I was planning to maximise the benefits of DT: fitting in all the raiders and venoms.

The fact that a DT tantalus has the same output efficiency of 3BH Ravagers could see play in the following scenarios:
I ran out of detachments and can't fit in a BH spearhead one.
I don't have the extra 75 points that a BHArchon +3ravagers costs compared to a single tantalus.
I already have a BH spearhead detachment and I want to double up on firepower by adding a Tantalus.


@Lord Asvaldir wrote:
One small point on reavers with heat lances. I actually do find them appealing, not because heat lances are particularly good vs vehicles, but because they are very good against multi-wound infantry with high armor. Particularly thinking of centurions, no invul makes that ap-5 super tasty. Plus if reavers survive later into the game (granted not super likely..) heat lances make great character snipers, once screens are cleared out reavers have the movement to put them right next to a character for some sniping. I'd still take them with test of skill because if there's no multi-wound infantry to deal with, yeah I want them to at least not be wounding vehicles on 5s.

I will be analysing these same units against infantry targets later on.
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