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corollax
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 22 2019, 19:59

@amishprn86 wrote:
now you have more wounds
Both have twelve wounds. And a -1 to be shot at.

@amishprn86 wrote:
better movement
That's seriously debatable. The flyers have a minimum movement and maximum pivot.

@amishprn86 wrote:
a 1 time MW bomb
Of questionable utility, honestly.

@amishprn86 wrote:
better damage vs things without Invuls
...like anything with worse than a 3+ save? Or non-vehicles?

@amishprn86 wrote:
Its not just the damage, its also the utility.
Such as ability to transport HQs and troops, hold objectives, or even objective secured.
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sekac
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 22 2019, 20:03

@mynamelegend wrote:
Let's say you're shooting at the perennial favorite, an Imperial Knight.
The Voidraven gets 2d3 shots that wound on 3s versus a 5++ or 4++ and do d3 damage a pop. All in all averaging a little under 2.5 wounds, assuming they stick to the 5++.
For that price you can get two venoms, with 24 shots worth of 5+ to wound versus a 3+ and 2 damage. All in all you'd be looking at around 3.5 wounds.

Point for point, the venom actually does more damage to an IK than the Voidraven does.

Against something without an invuln, like a Leman Russ, you're looking at the voidraven scoring a little more by virtue of its missiles. And remember, this is the worst case scenario of firing a venom at a freaking vehicle with a 3+. Considering how MASSIVELY much better two venoms are against things like hordes, I sincerely don't see why you'd prefer a voidraven.

1) Venoms and Voidravens are not mutually exclusive (as evidenced by having both in the list I posted above) so I'm not sure why you're framing the argument this way.
2) You're cherry picking an intentionally bad example.
3) You're ignoring the missiles on the Voidravens (but only when you're talking about shooting at knights for whatever reason).
4) You're ignoring void mines against hordes. Venoms can't touch that kind of single turn damage.

But aside from all your cherry picking and numerous intentional oversights, a decent response.
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 22 2019, 21:15

Try running the actual math, the missile amounts to roughly five-sixths of a wound, which still makes the comparison against an IK ~3.33 vs 3.5 wounds in the Venom's favor.
And if "hordes, things with invulns, and Imperial Knights" are cherrypicking bad examples I want your local meta, it sounds very cozy. T7 3+ no invuln vehicles just aren't a very scary profile for the drukhari and voidravens being better than paired venoms (~5.49 wounds vs 3.5) against them isn't worth voidravens being vastly the hell worse against, say, cultists (~4.3 wounds vs 11.11).
Not to mention, of course, that since Talosi got way better with the new rules, they're almost always a better idea for actually hurting these various vehicles than the goddamn Voidraven. A single Talos at 98 points will do ~2 mortal wounds and another 1.33 normal wounds against 3+ save vehicles (IE: About equal to an entire 165 point voidraven against an Imperial Knight), and that's completely discounting its melee profile. So why would you not just take Way More Talos for the points you're throwing away on the Voidraven?

But aside from the bad math and obvious inability to understand that hordes and Knights are a bigger problem than rhinos in 8th edition, a decent response.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 22 2019, 21:35

A venom/Raider or 2 dies a turn for me no matter what, thats why i take 10 of them, a 5++ Talos will do the same, but it will be focus down even faster b.c it is scary in melee and everyone is scared of them. So for me if i'm taking a 5++ model it needs to be in mass (10+) or double the wounds so they have to really focus on killing just 1 unit a turn and i'd rather just 1 flyer die than 2 venoms/raiders due to kill more. ALso Lightning Fast stratagem works better on a Voidraven b.c it already has -1 to hit, +1T over Raider/venom and has more wounds to spare.

For me Voidravens just work better, it might be the players/meta, or it just might be b.c how i play.

I also normally am not pure, no reason to in 8th sadly, i always take 6 skyweavers, i see no reason not to, they are just amazing, easily -2 to hit with a 3++ every turn if you wanted too.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 22 2019, 22:17

@mynamelegend wrote:
Try running the actual math, the missile amounts to roughly five-sixths of a wound, which still makes the comparison against an IK ~3.33 vs 3.5 wounds in the Venom's favor.

I did run the actual math. It doesn't come out to just under 2.5 wounds as you lied stated.

Did I ever say hordes weren't an issue in my meta? Nope, didn't say anything remotely like that. What I actually said is you're specifically pretending void mines (the most efficient horde clearance we've got) don't exist. 2 completely different things.

And 3rd, read the **** list! Talos are ALSO in there. I'm aware Talos got better, that's why I included them.


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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 22 2019, 22:42

Dark Scythes are 1d3 attacks, and each Voidraven gets two.
2d3 attacks averages 4.
4 attacks, 3+ to hit, averages 2.66 hits.
2.66 hits, 3+ to wound (S8 vs T8 with a +1 to wound from Test of Skill) averages 1.77 wounds.
1.77 wounds, 5++ to save, averages 1.185 wounds.
1.185 wounds, damage 1d3, averages 2.37 damage.
The dark scythes average 2.37 damage. If you run void lances instead, you'll average 2.6 wounds (2 shots, 1.33 hits, 1.11 wounds, 0.74 getting past the 5++, multiply by 3.5 rounding up to 2.6)
Since the missiles are D1 weapons they're usually smartest fired at other targets, but if you want to go all-in on that, a Shatterfield averages 3.5 attacks, 2.33 hits, 1.75 wounds since 4+ rerollable, 0.875 get past the 4+ save. Total is 3.475 with void lances or 3.245 with dark scythes (again, two venoms average 3.5 - strictly better, for cheaper)

Don't insult me by calling me a liar just because you flunked math.

And void mines are nowhere near our best anti-horde option. They're not even in the top five. You score ~7 MWs once per game. Let's throw in the shatterfield (round up to 2.1) and dark scythes (ca 2.2) and you're looking at 11.3 wounds. In other words... Roughly what two venoms will do to the same horde of cultists every turn instead of just one turn. With no fewer wounds, no worse save, no worse to-hit, and for 15 points cheaper.

Voidravens are worse than talosi and venoms, which is why instead of bringing Talosi AND Venoms AND Voidravens you should just axe your Voidravens and bring more Talosi and Venoms.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 22 2019, 22:48

My math shows a Voidbraven with lances and missiles vs a Knight with 4++ is 3.5, Vs a Leman Russ is 4.8.

Again, 2 venoms within rapid fire range with 2 SC is equal to a Voidraven against a knight, but with the added bonus of stratagem works on more wounds, +1 toughness, longer range, 1 unit vs 2 (only important in ITC), vs a Leman Rush the Bomber is better, vs many other units, the bomber is better. But yes there are times the Venoms are better, thats why you take both.

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sekac
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2019, 00:27

@mynamelegend wrote:
Dark Scythes are 1d3 attacks, and each Voidraven gets two.
2d3 attacks averages 4.
4 attacks, 3+ to hit, averages 2.66 hits.
2.66 hits, 3+ to wound (S8 vs T8 with a +1 to wound from Test of Skill) averages 1.77 wounds.
1.77 wounds, 5++ to save, averages 1.185 wounds.
1.185 wounds, damage 1d3, averages 2.37 damage.
The dark scythes average 2.37 damage. If you run void lances instead, you'll average 2.6 wounds (2 shots, 1.33 hits, 1.11 wounds, 0.74 getting past the 5++, multiply by 3.5 rounding up to 2.6)
Since the missiles are D1 weapons they're usually smartest fired at other targets, but if you want to go all-in on that, a Shatterfield averages 3.5 attacks, 2.33 hits, 1.75 wounds since 4+ rerollable, 0.875 get past the 4+ save. Total is 3.475 with void lances or 3.245 with dark scythes (again, two venoms average 3.5 - strictly better, for cheaper)

Don't insult me by calling me a liar just because you flunked math.

And void mines are nowhere near our best anti-horde option. They're not even in the top five. You score ~7 MWs once per game. Let's throw in the shatterfield (round up to 2.1) and dark scythes (ca 2.2) and you're looking at 11.3 wounds. In other words... Roughly what two venoms will do to the same horde of cultists every turn instead of just one turn. With no fewer wounds, no worse save, no worse to-hit, and for 15 points cheaper.

Voidravens are worse than talosi and venoms, which is why instead of bringing Talosi AND Venoms AND Voidravens you should just axe your Voidravens and bring more Talosi and Venoms.

I'm not insulting you because I flunked math, I called you out for only including some of the math. I'm not sure if you forgot about missiles, or intentionally left them out, but your original response didn't mention them, or their capability at all. That has nothing to do with my ability to do math, just pointing out that if you're gonna do it, it's wise to do ALL of the math.

You're still struggling with this so let me put it this way. If there's a renegade knight and 30 cultists headed your way, you can either shoot at the knight with 2 venoms, or shoot at the cultists.

A voidraven can kill cultists AND shoot the knight. You're correct, I cannot do that turn after turn. But the reason alpha striking is a thing, is front loaded damage is far better than consistent turn after turn damage. Because if you break threats early, they won't make you pay late.

This is why warhammer is not played with calculators. What things do IN GAME, ON THE FIELD matters.

And the final thing you've avoided mentioning, is the damage venoms and Talos will do to themselves. Your venom MAY continue shooting all game, or it may kill itself by turn 3. With voidravens, opponents have to earn every wound it takes.
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Sarcron
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2019, 08:59

Well just had my first match using custom obsessions in a semi-competitive scenario.

I was running a battalion of Obsidian rose and a spearhead of coven with a unit of wracks mixed in.

I was running obsessive collectors and experimental creations and oh boy did it do well.

Strength 8 talos running around was great, and the poison buff on wracks made them hit harder than expected. Had a unit of wracks get charged by howling banshees, survive, and then proceed to get back all the models the banshees killed.

I can certainly say the obsessive collectors was fun and had me chuckling as my wracks simply didn't die.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2019, 09:35

PoF Talos with Urien are already Str 8 tho

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krayd
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2019, 14:57

@amishprn86 wrote:
PoF Talos with Urien are already Str 8 tho

But they won't be after Urien gets sniped. and his half-damage ability isn't nearly as useful against that as one might hope.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2019, 15:17

@krayd wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
PoF Talos with Urien are already Str 8 tho

But they won't be after Urien gets sniped. and his half-damage ability isn't nearly as useful against that as one might hope.

But in that regards your talos can die also just as well b.c they only have a 5++, my point was you can have a 4++ and still Str 8. Also Urien would have a 4++ and take 1/2 damage with a FnP, he is harder to sniper than most characters.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2019, 15:42

@amishprn86 wrote:
@krayd wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
PoF Talos with Urien are already Str 8 tho

But they won't be after Urien gets sniped. and his half-damage ability isn't nearly as useful against that as one might hope.

But in that regards your talos can die also just as well b.c they only have a 5++, my point was you can have a 4++ and still Str 8. Also Urien would have a 4++ and take 1/2 damage with a FnP, he is harder to sniper than most characters.

Well, I still plan to take a PoF detachment with Talos + Urien in my lists, as I'm still not totally sold on the idea of giving up the 4++ for that unit. I might mess around with the new obsessions using a secondary coven detachment, though.
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Skulnbonz
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2019, 17:51

All of this comes down to some simple but hard to digest facts...

None of the "new" obsessions are as good as the "old" obsessions, with only one slight difference.

Flayed Skull is still the best for Kabal, followed ever so closely by Black heart.
The new ones are jokes.

Cursed Blade or Red Grief are still the best for cult.
The new ones are neat to think about, but just not as good.

Prophets of Flesh are best for coven.
the new ones are GREAT, no denying, but still pale in comparison to the god-tier obsession POF is.

the only stand out is for an AIRWING detachment, using Test of skill, which will get nerfbatted in the first FAQ.

So we can bicker and argue about who killed who, er.. I mean which new ones are best, but it really does not matter in the grand scheme of things, as the old ways are still the best ways, and as Dark eldar, you think we would have known that.


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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2019, 18:03

I think they give us new competitive viable options actually (well not Kabal) for Wych and Coven.

I just dont think it helps new playstyles or make bad units better, its just the same good units being used differently. It also doesnt help the weapons that are not being used.

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dumpeal
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2019, 19:47

@amishprn86 wrote:
I just dont think it helps new playstyles or make bad units better, its just the same good units being used differently. It also doesnt help the weapons that are not being used.

Sorry, but I beg to differ. With technomancer, I will seriously consider the liquifier. 1D6 attack PA -1 to -3 and D2 is worth considering
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sekac
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2019, 19:48

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Cursed Blade or Red Grief are still the best for cult.
The new ones are neat to think about, but just not as good.

I don't disagree with you largely, but I definitely do on this point.

I've never thought Red Grief is very good. Turn 1 charges can be game altering, but a lot of that depends on opponent, mission, and terrain. I think Red Grief will definitely give way to some of these.

Cursed blade might prove to last, but the only thing it gives wych blobs Ld defense at this point. A wych blob with 3++ or dishing out mortal wounds on the charge are just going to do what wyches are supposed to do so much better.

Secondly, why is everyone so positive that Test of Skill is going to get nerfed? If it was meant to apply to melee attacks only, it would be unusably, God-awfully bad. Probably more useless than any of the Kabal ones.

Is it so crazy to believe that GW might be incentivizing us to run wych cult flyers which there is currently absolutely no reason to ever do?
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Burnage
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2019, 19:58

Cult units mostly get run for lockdown in competitive lists currently (see: every single unit of Wyches taking Shardnets). That's where Red Grief really shines, because if you don't care about damage at all then advance and charge is unmatchable in terms of utility.
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krayd
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2019, 20:05

I'm going to try running a wyche cult outrider with 3 units of reavers and 2 razorwing jetfighters, using Test of Skill and one other obsession (which I haven't settled on - probably either Berserk Fugue or Slashing Impact). I think that test of skill will work nicely on reavers w/ blasters, and this way, the 2nd obsession won't be wasted (as it would be with an airwing).
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 24 2019, 17:41

@Burnage wrote:
Cult units mostly get run for lockdown in competitive lists currently (see: every single unit of Wyches taking Shardnets). That's where Red Grief really shines, because if you don't care about damage at all then advance and charge is unmatchable in terms of utility.

It WAS unmatched. Given the goal of tarpitting, 3++ is now unmatched in terms of utility. Red Grief is helpful if (and only if) the ability to make the charge is dependent on the advance roll. If you would've made the charge anyway, RG is useless.

I don't want to choose an obsession assuming that 1-4" WILL be the difference between making one charge, one time. I'd rather plan on making it into combat, and being far more effective once there.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 24 2019, 18:03

Yeah I'm sadly still waiting on my book to arrive, but once I have it in hand I am absolutely trying out acrobatic display on wyches. Essentially getting storm shields in melee is awesome, especially with the melee buff that all marines got I really feel the need for wyches to be a bit more survivable in melee. It's not all that great on other cult units, but that's probably why I'll run a separate detachment for reavers/razorwings with test of skill and maybe slashing impact. 9 reavers with 3 heat lances feels like something worth trying in a cult focused list, backed up by fliers.

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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 24 2019, 18:21

@sekac wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
Cult units mostly get run for lockdown in competitive lists currently (see: every single unit of Wyches taking Shardnets). That's where Red Grief really shines, because if you don't care about damage at all then advance and charge is unmatchable in terms of utility.

It WAS unmatched. Given the goal of tarpitting, 3++ is now unmatched in terms of utility. Red Grief is helpful if (and only if) the ability to make the charge is dependent on the advance roll. If you would've made the charge anyway, RG is useless.

And if you get shot off the board before making it into combat, Acrobatic Display is also useless. Advance and charge feels more consistent to me on paper (especially since I also like to run Reavers and RG gets a 3++ Succubus too), but I'll admit that I do want to toy around with Acrobatic Display.
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 24 2019, 22:10

@Burnage wrote:
@sekac wrote:
@Burnage wrote:
Cult units mostly get run for lockdown in competitive lists currently (see: every single unit of Wyches taking Shardnets). That's where Red Grief really shines, because if you don't care about damage at all then advance and charge is unmatchable in terms of utility.

It WAS unmatched. Given the goal of tarpitting, 3++ is now unmatched in terms of utility. Red Grief is helpful if (and only if) the ability to make the charge is dependent on the advance roll. If you would've made the charge anyway, RG is useless.

And if you get shot off the board before making it into combat, Acrobatic Display is also useless. Advance and charge feels more consistent to me on paper (especially since I also like to run Reavers and RG gets a 3++ Succubus too), but I'll admit that I do want to toy around with Acrobatic Display.

And I never run reavers so I care pretty much exclusively about wyches. The question I ask myself is, "what's more likely: I fail a charge by a narrow enough margin that RG would've mattered, or I roll some 3s when needing 4++?"

Some games RG would have absolutely better when the fail charge comes up, but I think more often than not, they'll either die before they get close, or successfully make it anyway. Hopefully I'm right!...
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 24 2019, 22:21

I think cursed blade still is the best cult. +1S and 1-model loss on morale is good.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Obsessions Combinations   Custom Obsessions Combinations - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 24 2019, 23:32

There's no doubt that cursed blade is still incredibly good. However, if you really want to focus on using wyches as a tarpit unit, I think acrobatic display wins out. I often take 10 man wyches in raiders, with 10 mans I don't find the moral bonus is absolutely necessary, and I focus on having them tie up infantry in melee and giving them grave lotus, so I don't feel the extra strength is super necessary. Yeah they can be more attacks with s4 if you take cursed blade, but I can pass on that. Cursed blade also has a pretty eh strat/relic/trait so I don't feel like I'm missing out on that. If anything what I miss most is the blood glaive from red grief.

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